What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video
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@scottalanmiller said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
We don't care about ISP growth. Personally, I'm not even okay with their being ISPs period.
What is your model for internet access without ISP’s?
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@bigbear said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
@scottalanmiller said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
We don't care about ISP growth. Personally, I'm not even okay with their being ISPs period.
What is your model for internet access without ISP’s?
Same as with streets, water, sewer, and every other comparable utility - it only makes sense when it is supplied by the government. Or through an artificial arm of the government like the US did for the first 80 years of telephony. The same way that all the countries with the best Internet models today work. ISPs add no value, but create massive overhead and risk.
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And before anyone says "but I don't trust the government", that simply makes no sense. The risks of government are the same with or without the gov't running the Internet. There is no downside, only upsides.
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@scottalanmiller said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
@bigbear said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
@scottalanmiller said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
We don't care about ISP growth. Personally, I'm not even okay with their being ISPs period.
What is your model for internet access without ISP’s?
Same as with streets, water, sewer, and every other comparable utility - it only makes sense when it is supplied by the government. Or through an artificial arm of the government like the US did for the first 80 years of telephony. The same way that all the countries with the best Internet models today work. ISPs add no value, but create massive overhead and risk.
I don’t even disagree though. If the government will do it go ahead and do it, that would be great. FTTH guaranteed to every door? I’m all in.
Why do you assume I want ISPs to make more money? More competition means profits are competed away. Less money for ISPs and at least more options for end users. Shitty ISPs fold and sell their assets to the better ISP.
Why do I hate cats and NN? I think OIO is bullshit. It’s not NN as I illustrated above.
I can only assume everyone thinks this is political for me or is reading too much into it. I’m about as unbiased as they come. Certainly not affiliated with any political party or agenda.
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@bigbear said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
Why do you assume I want ISPs to make more money? More competition means profits are competed away. Less money for ISPs and at least more options for end users. Shitty ISPs fold and sell their assets to the better ISP.
There's that competition word, very few areas of the country actually have competing ISPs. If you're lucky it's one that's faster and one that's painfully slow.
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@travisdh1 said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
@bigbear said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
Why do you assume I want ISPs to make more money? More competition means profits are competed away. Less money for ISPs and at least more options for end users. Shitty ISPs fold and sell their assets to the better ISP.
There's that competition word, very few areas of the country actually have competing ISPs. If you're lucky it's one that's faster and one that's painfully slow.
Lol I don’t know why @scottalanmiller doesn’t care about it. I have Spectrum. You can get Att but it’s just shitty DSL.
There’s no choice. From where we are at I can only see competition as making a difference.
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@bigbear said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
@scottalanmiller said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
@bigbear said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
@scottalanmiller said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
We don't care about ISP growth. Personally, I'm not even okay with their being ISPs period.
What is your model for internet access without ISP’s?
Same as with streets, water, sewer, and every other comparable utility - it only makes sense when it is supplied by the government. Or through an artificial arm of the government like the US did for the first 80 years of telephony. The same way that all the countries with the best Internet models today work. ISPs add no value, but create massive overhead and risk.
I don’t even disagree though. If the government will do it go ahead and do it, that would be great. FTTH guaranteed to every door? I’m all in.
Why do you assume I want ISPs to make more money? More competition means profits are competed away. Less money for ISPs and at least more options for end users. Shitty ISPs fold and sell their assets to the better ISP.
Why do I hate cats and NN? I think OIO is bullshit. It’s not NN as I illustrated above.
I can only assume everyone thinks this is political for me or is reading too much into it. I’m about as unbiased as they come. Certainly not affiliated with any political party or agenda.
Not saying that you are aligned in one way or another, only that your priorities like in things like competition over packet neutrality.
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@bigbear said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
@travisdh1 said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
@bigbear said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
Why do you assume I want ISPs to make more money? More competition means profits are competed away. Less money for ISPs and at least more options for end users. Shitty ISPs fold and sell their assets to the better ISP.
There's that competition word, very few areas of the country actually have competing ISPs. If you're lucky it's one that's faster and one that's painfully slow.
Lol I don’t know why @scottalanmiller doesn’t care about it. I have Spectrum. You can get Att but it’s just shitty DSL.
There’s no choice. From where we are at I can only see competition as making a difference.
I care about it, but I don't care in comparison to neutrality. One is shitty Internet, the other undermines our political system.
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For me, there is more competition than for most of you, because I will literally move to make sure I get good Internet. Making a city somewhere else that has amazing Internet? I might move there just for that!
I'm not kidding.
I'm also in talks with a team where we have proposed working around this by building our own village to handle this. I kid you not, it's a long shot program, but we've been running numbers, looking at locations, etc.
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@bigbear said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
@travisdh1 said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
@bigbear said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
Why do you assume I want ISPs to make more money? More competition means profits are competed away. Less money for ISPs and at least more options for end users. Shitty ISPs fold and sell their assets to the better ISP.
There's that competition word, very few areas of the country actually have competing ISPs. If you're lucky it's one that's faster and one that's painfully slow.
Lol I don’t know why @scottalanmiller doesn’t care about it. I have Spectrum. You can get Att but it’s just shitty DSL.
There’s no choice. From where we are at I can only see competition as making a difference.
You said it yourself, there is no choice today. I agree that competition would help the situation, but the reality is that no competition exists today, and probably never will when even Google can't break into the market.
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@scottalanmiller said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
@bigbear said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
@travisdh1 said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
@bigbear said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
Why do you assume I want ISPs to make more money? More competition means profits are competed away. Less money for ISPs and at least more options for end users. Shitty ISPs fold and sell their assets to the better ISP.
There's that competition word, very few areas of the country actually have competing ISPs. If you're lucky it's one that's faster and one that's painfully slow.
Lol I don’t know why @scottalanmiller doesn’t care about it. I have Spectrum. You can get Att but it’s just shitty DSL.
There’s no choice. From where we are at I can only see competition as making a difference.
I care about it, but I don't care in comparison to neutrality. One is shitty Internet, the other undermines our political system.
Fair enough, but this law doesn’t show me anything that solves packet neutrality.
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@bigbear said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
@scottalanmiller said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
@bigbear said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
@travisdh1 said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
@bigbear said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
Why do you assume I want ISPs to make more money? More competition means profits are competed away. Less money for ISPs and at least more options for end users. Shitty ISPs fold and sell their assets to the better ISP.
There's that competition word, very few areas of the country actually have competing ISPs. If you're lucky it's one that's faster and one that's painfully slow.
Lol I don’t know why @scottalanmiller doesn’t care about it. I have Spectrum. You can get Att but it’s just shitty DSL.
There’s no choice. From where we are at I can only see competition as making a difference.
I care about it, but I don't care in comparison to neutrality. One is shitty Internet, the other undermines our political system.
Fair enough, but this law doesn’t show me anything that solves packet neutrality.
Which, I think we all agree, it doesn't go far enough. Not even close. But we need to put stronger things in place before repealing anything.
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@bigbear said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
@travisdh1 said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
@bigbear said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
Why do you assume I want ISPs to make more money? More competition means profits are competed away. Less money for ISPs and at least more options for end users. Shitty ISPs fold and sell their assets to the better ISP.
There's that competition word, very few areas of the country actually have competing ISPs. If you're lucky it's one that's faster and one that's painfully slow.
Lol I don’t know why @scottalanmiller doesn’t care about it. I have Spectrum. You can get Att but it’s just shitty DSL.
There’s no choice. From where we are at I can only see competition as making a difference.
right, so what's stopping competition today?
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@travisdh1 said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
@bigbear said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
@travisdh1 said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
@bigbear said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
Why do you assume I want ISPs to make more money? More competition means profits are competed away. Less money for ISPs and at least more options for end users. Shitty ISPs fold and sell their assets to the better ISP.
There's that competition word, very few areas of the country actually have competing ISPs. If you're lucky it's one that's faster and one that's painfully slow.
Lol I don’t know why @scottalanmiller doesn’t care about it. I have Spectrum. You can get Att but it’s just shitty DSL.
There’s no choice. From where we are at I can only see competition as making a difference.
You said it yourself, there is no choice today. I agree that competition would help the situation, but the reality is that no competition exists today, and probably never will when even Google can't break into the market.
It's more than that - competition itself can not bring about neutrality. You could have 30 ISPs and it's possible that none of them would offer neutrality. You only get that by regulation.
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@bigbear said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
@scottalanmiller said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
@bigbear said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
@travisdh1 said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
@bigbear said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
Why do you assume I want ISPs to make more money? More competition means profits are competed away. Less money for ISPs and at least more options for end users. Shitty ISPs fold and sell their assets to the better ISP.
There's that competition word, very few areas of the country actually have competing ISPs. If you're lucky it's one that's faster and one that's painfully slow.
Lol I don’t know why @scottalanmiller doesn’t care about it. I have Spectrum. You can get Att but it’s just shitty DSL.
There’s no choice. From where we are at I can only see competition as making a difference.
I care about it, but I don't care in comparison to neutrality. One is shitty Internet, the other undermines our political system.
Fair enough, but this law doesn’t show me anything that solves packet neutrality.
what law is that? NN or your stated OIO?
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@scottalanmiller said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
@bigbear said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
@scottalanmiller said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
@bigbear said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
@travisdh1 said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
@bigbear said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
Why do you assume I want ISPs to make more money? More competition means profits are competed away. Less money for ISPs and at least more options for end users. Shitty ISPs fold and sell their assets to the better ISP.
There's that competition word, very few areas of the country actually have competing ISPs. If you're lucky it's one that's faster and one that's painfully slow.
Lol I don’t know why @scottalanmiller doesn’t care about it. I have Spectrum. You can get Att but it’s just shitty DSL.
There’s no choice. From where we are at I can only see competition as making a difference.
I care about it, but I don't care in comparison to neutrality. One is shitty Internet, the other undermines our political system.
Fair enough, but this law doesn’t show me anything that solves packet neutrality.
Which, I think we all agree, it doesn't go far enough. Not even close. But we need to put stronger things in place before repealing anything.
Which was my question the other day - If Pai has our best citizen interest in mind, why does he need to repeal the current law instead of making a new one to subplant it?
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@dashrender said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
@scottalanmiller said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
@bigbear said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
@scottalanmiller said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
@bigbear said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
@travisdh1 said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
@bigbear said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
Why do you assume I want ISPs to make more money? More competition means profits are competed away. Less money for ISPs and at least more options for end users. Shitty ISPs fold and sell their assets to the better ISP.
There's that competition word, very few areas of the country actually have competing ISPs. If you're lucky it's one that's faster and one that's painfully slow.
Lol I don’t know why @scottalanmiller doesn’t care about it. I have Spectrum. You can get Att but it’s just shitty DSL.
There’s no choice. From where we are at I can only see competition as making a difference.
I care about it, but I don't care in comparison to neutrality. One is shitty Internet, the other undermines our political system.
Fair enough, but this law doesn’t show me anything that solves packet neutrality.
Which, I think we all agree, it doesn't go far enough. Not even close. But we need to put stronger things in place before repealing anything.
Which was my question the other day - If Pai has our best citizen interest in mind, why does he need to repeal the current law instead of making a new one to subplant it?
Net Neutrality, as I have said in the other post in this, isnt the name of the law. Its called the Open Internet Order and above I posted the law and copied/pasted the specific section that allows ISP's to throttle and do as they please.
https://mangolassi.it/post/364141 Check it out...
What is it about this law that you like? The Title II has nothing to do with NN, its a whole longer standing argument from the 90's about "zero tier".
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@bigbear said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
@dashrender said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
@scottalanmiller said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
@bigbear said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
@scottalanmiller said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
@bigbear said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
@travisdh1 said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
@bigbear said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
Why do you assume I want ISPs to make more money? More competition means profits are competed away. Less money for ISPs and at least more options for end users. Shitty ISPs fold and sell their assets to the better ISP.
There's that competition word, very few areas of the country actually have competing ISPs. If you're lucky it's one that's faster and one that's painfully slow.
Lol I don’t know why @scottalanmiller doesn’t care about it. I have Spectrum. You can get Att but it’s just shitty DSL.
There’s no choice. From where we are at I can only see competition as making a difference.
I care about it, but I don't care in comparison to neutrality. One is shitty Internet, the other undermines our political system.
Fair enough, but this law doesn’t show me anything that solves packet neutrality.
Which, I think we all agree, it doesn't go far enough. Not even close. But we need to put stronger things in place before repealing anything.
Which was my question the other day - If Pai has our best citizen interest in mind, why does he need to repeal the current law instead of making a new one to subplant it?
Net Neutrality, as I have said in the other post in this, isnt the name of the law. Its called the Open Internet Order and above I posted the law and copied/pasted the specific section that allows ISP's to throttle and do as they please.
https://mangolassi.it/post/364141 Check it out...
What is it about this law that you like? The Title II has nothing to do with NN, its a whole longer standing argument from the 90's about "zero tier".
Holy shit 500+ pages, I'm a slow reader, this will take me a while. That said, if the law truly offers nothing to protect the citizens, then I guess nothing. But again, with having read it, what does it hurt while we wait for something better to come along?
Also as Scott said, I don't care about more players coming to the market more than the internet being a free unencumbered, unfiltered, unthrottled connection to each other.
Having read the first few pages
Currently, video is the dominant form of traffic on the Internet. These video services directly confront the video businesses of the very companies that supply them broadband access to their customers.
This is one of the main roots of the problem. If the makers of roads where in some type of other business that was threatened by others who used those roads, you can bet the makers of roads would find ways to not maintain the roads as a way of maintaining a stranglehold on their current business in that threatened sector.
To that end, I'd like to see internet connectivity become it's own thing, not allowed to be intermingled with other business interests. Nah - that probably goes to far (maybe). But you have to admit that buy allowing a select few content providers also be the ones that provide the access to the internet, how could you not anticipate the internet providers to want to leverage that internet for their own gains?
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@bigbear said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
@scottalanmiller said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
Oh and he just pulled out the "competition" distraction.
Yup, this solidified it further, NN is absolutely needed and AP has no intention of protecting the US from companies. He's sold us out.
I am going to start referring to this as the Open Internet Order, not NN. I support NN but do not believe the OIO was comprehensive enough to impact the actual issues everyone is worried about.
https://apps.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-15-24A1_Rcd.pdf
And in case anyone has had a hard time find it, see the link above. So anyone who wants to tell me what you THINK the Open Internet Order did for you I would like to check out what the actual law says.
The prominent issue everyone is talking about is throttling of services, which could be applied to the user but is generally applied at interconnect to limit a network or services speed.
Regarding throttling and despite HBO John Oliver's claims, the law DOES NOT prohibit throttling at the interconnection level. So does not eliminate your theoretical fear of Comcast screwing Netflix in an anticompetitive measure to promote its own content.
Straight from Page 10¶ 30
30. But this Order does not apply the open Internet rules to interconnection. Three factors
are critical in informing this approach to interconnection. First, the nature of Internet traffic, driven by
massive consumption of video, has challenged traditional arrangements—placing more emphasis on the
use of CDNs or even direct connections between content providers (like Netflix or Google) and last-mile
broadband providers. Second, it is clear that consumers have been subject to degradation resulting from commercial disagreements,28 perhaps most notably in a series of disputes between Netflix and large last mile broadband providers. But, third, the causes of past disruption and—just as importantly—the
potential for future degradation through interconnection disputes—are reflected in very different
narratives in the record.EDIT:
Also... The Open Internet Order does not prevent Comcast from requiring payment to send traffic to their networks; it only puts ISPs under the general rules of Title II where they FCC would decide on a case by case basis what to do. So basically, it depends on how well the lobbyists work over politicians.
So a few thoughts on this part.
Interconnections are a special situation. As I understand it, it's suppose to be a Quid Pro Quo - both sides more or less send the same amount of data to each other. In case where this is true, there there is basically a zero billing situation.
The problem with this is that this is no longer true. Services like Netflix broke this model. To that end, I understand a need for change to the interconnect agreement. In a case like this, I can understand why Netflix could/would be asked to pay their ISP more than the normal ISP fees, because they are the reason the ISP that NetFlix uses to become unbalanced at the Interconnect.
Now today with more and more video services coming online, and more and more cord cutters moving sole to internet streaming video (vs traditional cable/satellite feeds), this is driving even more traffic from these few primary sites, I'm assuming massively unbalancing these interconnects.I'm not sure the best solution for bringing balance back to this.
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@dashrender said in What Net Neutrality Means to You SAMIT Video:
The problem with this is that this is no longer true. Services like Netflix broke this model. To that end, I understand a need for change to the interconnect agreement. In a case like this, I can understand why Netflix could/would be asked to pay their ISP more than the normal ISP fees, because they are the reason the ISP that NetFlix uses to become unbalanced at the Interconnect.
I don't buy this theory. Netflix already pays for their bandwidth. You never use more of a service and get worse and worse rates for being a bigger customer, you get either flat pricing or improved pricing based on volume. Netflix isn't the only data user on their ISP. Even if Netflix is the biggest single user, every user on the ISP is responsible for the imbalance together as a whole. If the prices are too low, then everyone needs to be charged more. It just means that Netflix' ISP accidentally billed too little to cover their costs (that seems unlikely.)
This is a nonsensical bit of BS that ISPs say to try to justify cheating. They want to double dip when they see a rich customer that they can extort.
Think about any other kind of business.... who charges their best customers extra? Who punishes people for being customers? It makes no sense unless they are extorting them. You don't go to McDonald's every day and get told that since you are such a regular, loyal customer that your burgers will cost more than those of less frequent customers! You already pay the same amount per sandwich as everyone else, you are already the highest paying customer.
Netflix already pays more than anyone else, they are already charged for their volume. There cannot be a need to charge them additionally. Any imbalance is caused by all cumulative customers and is supposed to be covered by the rate that the ISP charges to the customers.
