MS Licensing - 3rd
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@scottalanmiller said in MS Licensing - 3rd:
@tim_g said in MS Licensing - 3rd:
@scottalanmiller said in MS Licensing - 3rd:
@tim_g said in MS Licensing - 3rd:
@scottalanmiller said in MS Licensing - 3rd:
@tim_g said in MS Licensing - 3rd:
@scottalanmiller said in MS Licensing - 3rd:
@tim_g said in MS Licensing - 3rd:
@scottalanmiller said in MS Licensing - 3rd:
@tim_g said in MS Licensing - 3rd:
If you install a Win10 VM on there and nobody will be accessing the desktop... for example it's acting as a server for some type of client software, and will only be accesses via HyperV console for management purposes, I don't think you need VDI licensing. You only need a regular Win10 license to cover the OS. (but do correct me if I'm wrong)
But if you are running a software on the VM and someone will be accessing it by either Remote Desktop, Team viewer, or similar means, then I believe you do need VDI licensing.
You need VDI licensing no matter how the system is accessed. All systems are used by users eventually, so you need VDI. Windows 10 cannot be licensed for server use at all, so that would violate use in some other way.
That makes sense.
So in other words, you can't virtualise Windows Desktop in HyperV for any type of production use without VID licensing?
Correct. VDI is the term for "virtualizing a Windows desktop". There's no way around it. And it doesn't relate to Hyper-V, it's all about Windows. So we can simplify the statement to...
"You can't virtualize Windows desktops with Windows desktop virtualization licensing."
Is there some kind of an official link somewhere that basically says this?
It's not the kind of thing to have a link. It's the "proving the negative" issue. Hyper-V is free and has no licensing. Windows needs licensing. That's all that there is.
Yes, but I'm not asking if Hyper-V is free or not.
I'm asking where it says that one cannot purchase a copy of Win7 or Win10, and apply that license to a VM (running on any hypervisor), without VDI licensing.
Oh, you can see that right in the EULA.
I see conflicting results with what you say regarding Win7 here: http://download.microsoft.com/Documents/UseTerms/Windows 7_Professional_English_7bb89e9f-20ea-4555-892f-394539ec1090.pdf
"d. Use with Virtualization Technologies. Instead of using the software directly on the licensed computer, you may install and use the software within only one virtual (or otherwise emulated) hardware system on the licensed computer. When used in a virtualized environment, content protected by digital rights management technology, BitLocker or any full volume disk drive encryption technology may not be as secure as protected content not in a virtualized environment. You should comply with all domestic and international laws that apply to such protected content."
It's not as clear as you think. You can put it in a VM, but you can't then access it via RDP
As long as you are virtualizing it on your desktop and accessing it like normal (locally) you can do that. That's how Hyper-V with Windows 10 works.The Windows 10 EULA is MUCH more clear:
(v) use the software as server software, for commercial hosting, make the software available for simultaneous use by multiple users over a network, install the software on a server and allow users to access it remotely, or install the software on a device for use only by remote users;
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No question about it regarding Windows 10, it's clear as day you cannot virtualize it on a server.
But for Win7, it's almost not even up for debate being that it's not even mentioned in the EULA.
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@tim_g said in MS Licensing - 3rd:
No question about it regarding Windows 10, it's clear as day you cannot virtualize it on a server.
But for Win7, it's almost not even up for debate being that it's not even mentioned in the EULA.
Windows 7 covers it too, by allowing only a single VM per machine. No other VMs can exist on the machine on which Windows 7 is a VM. So while you can virtualize it on your desktop, or on a server, it consumes the entire use of the server, defeating all VDI use cases, but allowing you to virtualize in order to use certain backup or storage tools, for example.
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Does "accessing" the computer only mean using the desktop? Or does accessing also apply if there's a web server installed or some other app that isn't accessed through the desktop?
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@scottalanmiller said in MS Licensing - 3rd:
No other VMs can exist on the machine on which Windows 7 is a VM.
This is not true from what I understand, if you have SA you're able to install up to 4 VMs (I think?) on one computer
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@bnrstnr said in MS Licensing - 3rd:
Does "accessing" the computer only mean using the desktop? Or does accessing also apply if there's a web server installed or some other app that isn't accessed through the desktop?
Everything applies. That's how they make it that you can't run any service on a desktop. There is no way to get around the license to attempt to use it as a server.
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@bnrstnr said in MS Licensing - 3rd:
@scottalanmiller said in MS Licensing - 3rd:
No other VMs can exist on the machine on which Windows 7 is a VM.
This is not true from what I understand, if you have SA you're able to install up to 4 VMs (I think?) on one computer
No, that's not Windows 7. Windows 8.1 and 10, yes, but not on 7.
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That is why Microsoft changed that licensing. They wanted the ability to offer the Windows 10 multiple VMs on your local desktop model and the old Windows 7 style licensing did not allow for that. So they had to revamp it.
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@bnrstnr said in MS Licensing - 3rd:
Does "accessing" the computer only mean using the desktop?
A simple answer here is... Microsoft never, ever means that as a special case. That's an SMB myth that I've only ever seen in Spiceworks. People there often state licensing as if the desktop environment is a special case and using a different technology for the GUI, like a web interface, changes the licensing. But there is nothing like that. Remotely connecting to the machine to get any access to it, unless explicitely allowed, is covered under accessing it.
The desktop environment is just a GUI. A web page served from it is just a GUI. Generically, they are all the same thing.
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@scottalanmiller said in MS Licensing - 3rd:
@tim_g said in MS Licensing - 3rd:
No question about it regarding Windows 10, it's clear as day you cannot virtualize it on a server.
But for Win7, it's almost not even up for debate being that it's not even mentioned in the EULA.
Windows 7 covers it too, by allowing only a single VM per machine. No other VMs can exist on the machine on which Windows 7 is a VM. So while you can virtualize it on your desktop, or on a server, it consumes the entire use of the server, defeating all VDI use cases, but allowing you to virtualize in order to use certain backup or storage tools, for example.
I didn't read that anywhere in the Win7 EULA.
The closest thing I seen was "you may install and use the software within only one virtual (or otherwise emulated) hardware system on the licensed computer."
Which to me means for each Win7 license, you can only have one VM. For each additional VM, you need another license. However, you may have as many Win7 VMs as you want on a single hypervisor. -
@bnrstnr said in MS Licensing - 3rd:
@scottalanmiller said in MS Licensing - 3rd:
No other VMs can exist on the machine on which Windows 7 is a VM.
This is not true from what I understand, if you have SA you're able to install up to 4 VMs (I think?) on one computer
SA is what allows that, not the Windows 7 licensing.
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@dashrender said in MS Licensing - 3rd:
@bnrstnr said in MS Licensing - 3rd:
@scottalanmiller said in MS Licensing - 3rd:
No other VMs can exist on the machine on which Windows 7 is a VM.
This is not true from what I understand, if you have SA you're able to install up to 4 VMs (I think?) on one computer
SA is what allows that, not the Windows 7 licensing.
SA for Windows 10, not SA for Windows 7.
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@tim_g said in MS Licensing - 3rd:
@scottalanmiller said in MS Licensing - 3rd:
@tim_g said in MS Licensing - 3rd:
No question about it regarding Windows 10, it's clear as day you cannot virtualize it on a server.
But for Win7, it's almost not even up for debate being that it's not even mentioned in the EULA.
Windows 7 covers it too, by allowing only a single VM per machine. No other VMs can exist on the machine on which Windows 7 is a VM. So while you can virtualize it on your desktop, or on a server, it consumes the entire use of the server, defeating all VDI use cases, but allowing you to virtualize in order to use certain backup or storage tools, for example.
I didn't read that anywhere in the Win7 EULA.
The closest thing I seen was "you may install and use the software within only one virtual (or otherwise emulated) hardware system on the licensed computer."
Which to me means for each Win7 license, you can only have one VM. For each additional VM, you need another license. However, you may have as many Win7 VMs as you want on a single hypervisor.Microsoft has a licensing doc that explains it. Just search "Windows 7 vdi licensing" and the MS PDF is the first hit. Can't link it because of stupid Google.
@Chris has dug into it many times, though. Trust me, it is well covered. Even if you don't see it, MS has solid licensing around it.
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@scottalanmiller said in MS Licensing - 3rd:
SA for Windows 10, not SA for Windows 7.
So confusing, it was also my understanding that SA doesn't apply to specific versions. SA applies to any Windows Desktop OS. Obviously when Windows 7 was the latest, the rules may have been different. But now, with SA, you should be able to install up to (4) Win7 VMs on a single piece of hardware
At least when we were audited last year, we had this exact scenario and the auditor agreed with me lol
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@scottalanmiller said in MS Licensing - 3rd:
@dashrender said in MS Licensing - 3rd:
@bnrstnr said in MS Licensing - 3rd:
@scottalanmiller said in MS Licensing - 3rd:
No other VMs can exist on the machine on which Windows 7 is a VM.
This is not true from what I understand, if you have SA you're able to install up to 4 VMs (I think?) on one computer
SA is what allows that, not the Windows 7 licensing.
SA for Windows 10, not SA for Windows 7.
Isn't SA SA. If you have a valid SA today on your OEM Windows 7 licenses you can use Windows 10 on that machine... then using the SA rights you can downgrade to Windows 7 and get the 4 VMs rights of SA.
If you don't agree, please let us know why.
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@bnrstnr said in MS Licensing - 3rd:
@scottalanmiller said in MS Licensing - 3rd:
SA for Windows 10, not SA for Windows 7.
So confusing, it was also my understanding that SA doesn't apply to specific versions. SA applies to any Windows Desktop OS. Obviously when Windows 7 was the latest, the rules may have been different. But now, with SA, you should be able to install up to (4) Win7 VMs on a single piece of hardware
At least when we were audited last year, we had this exact scenario and the auditor agreed with me lol
That's not really telling, though. Everyone complains that the auditors know less than anyone. That they thought it was okay is so disconnected from the licensing that it really tells us nothing.
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@dashrender said in MS Licensing - 3rd:
@scottalanmiller said in MS Licensing - 3rd:
@dashrender said in MS Licensing - 3rd:
@bnrstnr said in MS Licensing - 3rd:
@scottalanmiller said in MS Licensing - 3rd:
No other VMs can exist on the machine on which Windows 7 is a VM.
This is not true from what I understand, if you have SA you're able to install up to 4 VMs (I think?) on one computer
SA is what allows that, not the Windows 7 licensing.
SA for Windows 10, not SA for Windows 7.
Isn't SA SA. If you have a valid SA today on your OEM Windows 7 licenses you can use Windows 10 on that machine... then using the SA rights you can downgrade to Windows 7 and get the 4 VMs rights of SA.
If you don't agree, please let us know why.
I'm not aware of anything like that and if you feel that SA rights provide alteration rights like that, you will have the reference for that. I don't agree because it seems unlikely, given you'd have to have something that stated it explicitely Do you have not? If not, that's the "why" I think it doesn't apply.
Downgrade rights are not related to "applying modern rights to old systems". That yo uhave downgrade implies nothing like you are saying. That doesn't mean that you are wrong, but if you are right, it is not coming from what you are saying.
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@scottalanmiller said in MS Licensing - 3rd:
That's not really telling, though. Everyone complains that the auditors know less than anyone. That they thought it was okay is so disconnected from the licensing that it really tells us nothing.
Totally agree with this. Same concept applies to many scenarios in life... Calling customer support? Call until you get someone to do what you want.
Though, I'm fairly confident, in this case, that it's true. I researched this a LOT before we bought SA for our programming guys that needed to run multiple VMs for different software.
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None of this really helps the OP, because SA does not get you Remote Access rights at all... and I'm sure there are rules that make it very clear that you cant skip server OSes just because you have SA and RDS CALs
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@bnrstnr said in MS Licensing - 3rd:
None of this really helps the OP, because SA does not get you Remote Access rights at all... and I'm sure there are rules that make it very clear that you cant skip server OSes just because you have SA and RDS CALs
Actualy it does, remote access rights are one of hte largest features of SA.
