Making Business to Candidate Hiring Connections
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Example:
Company A hires 20 new L0 right out of high school each year. Company B also hires 20 new L0 right out of high school each year.
Company A fills the ranks of the L1 roles "purely" by promoting from their former L0 pool. Their L2 roles will eventually be filled by people coming from the L1. And so forth.
Company B fills the ranks of the L1 roles "purely" by hiring people from other companies where they are ready to move up from L0 or laterally over from other L1 roles. Other companies are generally Companies C, D and E.
In the real world, most companies don't outright refuse to promote from within, but make it impractical. For example, if your company doesn't have L0, L1, L2 and L3 but only L1 and "Team Lead" positions, it can be almost impossible to make the leap. But going to another company for L2 experience and returning to be a Team Lead can work out just fine.
Wall St. does this all the time. You move up twice as fast bouncing while getting more training and experience.
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@guyinpv said in Making Business to Candidate Hiring Connections:
Perhaps some of this is politics, but some is moral, to a degree. Companies should, to some degree, help bring up talent, and not simply play these numbers games in such a way where no new people can enter the market at all.
I don't necessarily agree that it is a matter of corporate ethics. Outside of the Fortune 1000, this isn't even realistically possible. You can't expect a company that isn't large enough to have a solid IT practice to maintain loads of impractical or useless job roles just to give people working for a company outside of their career path a way to move up the corporate ladder.
Think about this outside of IT. A bookkeeper is not expected to ever be promoted from BK to Accountant to CPA to CFO in a single company, it's unreasonable. Or for an attorney to be brought in as an intern and eventually be general counsel for a company of only 100 people that might only ever hire a single lawyer, if even one.
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@guyinpv said in Making Business to Candidate Hiring Connections:
People in these positions don't just appear in a basket by a stork! So where does "best hiring practices" give way to politics or to moral goodness?
Most people argue that best hiring practices and moral goodness are always one and the same. Good practices are there so that everyone can excel as much as possible. Any short circuiting of that will necessarily hold back both companies and employees equally. Any change to the best hiring practices means that the best people are being held back to allow those that are not as good to be more easily "carried."
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@guyinpv said in Making Business to Candidate Hiring Connections:
How do new people get into these jobs?
Which ones?
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I don't think we're talking in the same train of thought here. But I think it's a bit off topic anyway.
As for finding talent. I've seen some new marketplaces come up which help people in certain industries find jobs near and dear to their heart.
For example GitHub's job market. Or StackOverflow's market. Or CodePen's market.
People who are a bit heavily invested in those platforms would be apt to find jobs from companies who also love those platforms and what they represent as far as potential talent.In other words, instead of one huge market covering everything like Monster, you have mini-markets ran within various "networks" where desired talent is bound to be found.
If I'm a designer, I'll probably be hanging out at this or that place. Or programmers on Github. Or general developers on Stack. Or whatever industry. I even see job boards now on many Slack channels that grow in popularity.
Linkedin was kind of this way. A "network" of "business-y" people, companies and employees, all hanging out trying to find each other. But it became something else.
So it kind of reverses the role of the recruiter. Instead of me hiring a recruiter to go find stuff, the company hires a recruiter that hunts down the talent where they like to hang out and post jobs there.
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@guyinpv said in Making Business to Candidate Hiring Connections:
As for finding talent. I've seen some new marketplaces come up which help people in certain industries find jobs near and dear to their heart.
For example GitHub's job market. Or StackOverflow's market. Or CodePen's market.Yes, other industries have done this decently well. IT really suffers in trying to make this happen.
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@guyinpv said in Making Business to Candidate Hiring Connections:
So it kind of reverses the role of the recruiter. Instead of me hiring a recruiter to go find stuff, the company hires a recruiter that hunts down the talent where they like to hang out and post jobs there.
Right, so MangoLassi. There really isn't any place for general IT of that nature. ML is the closest and busiest thing that we have. Which I think is a good starting point, but it's not enough, IMHO.
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@scottalanmiller said in Making Business to Candidate Hiring Connections:
@guyinpv said in Making Business to Candidate Hiring Connections:
As for finding talent. I've seen some new marketplaces come up which help people in certain industries find jobs near and dear to their heart.
For example GitHub's job market. Or StackOverflow's market. Or CodePen's market.Yes, other industries have done this decently well. IT really suffers in trying to make this happen.
Could that be potentially because IT covers such a broad array of topics?
Edit: And the majority of the IT workers are still trying to figure out what area of the spectrum they fall under / want to work in?
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@dafyre said in Making Business to Candidate Hiring Connections:
@scottalanmiller said in Making Business to Candidate Hiring Connections:
@guyinpv said in Making Business to Candidate Hiring Connections:
As for finding talent. I've seen some new marketplaces come up which help people in certain industries find jobs near and dear to their heart.
For example GitHub's job market. Or StackOverflow's market. Or CodePen's market.Yes, other industries have done this decently well. IT really suffers in trying to make this happen.
Could that be potentially because IT covers such a broad array of topics?
Edit: And the majority of the IT workers are still trying to figure out what area of the spectrum they fall under / want to work in?
Partially, and also because IT tends to be so dramatically disconnected from one another.
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@scottalanmiller said in Making Business to Candidate Hiring Connections:
@guyinpv said in Making Business to Candidate Hiring Connections:
This as opposed to hiring some veteran person stuck in their ways and has a hard shell for change.
I feel like this is more the opposite. You get stuck in your ways getting someone that has never left the one company. The only know one thing, they've only seen one thing, they've only done it one way, they know politics rather than IT, they move up normally because they know the system rather than their jobs (good people are less likely to move up compared to connected ones) and they tend to be change averse because that's why they didn't move on somewhere else.
It's people that have moved from company to company that are the least stuck in their ways. They have to be adaptable because they've been forced to adapt time and time again. They have broader perspective and are more likely, even at an older age, to adapt to changing needs, ideas and so forth.
I was talking with a co-worker last week about this. I'll never understand why years spent at a company is looked at as "loyalty." 99.9999999% of the time it's laziness and complacency. A person that's been at a company for a year and has actually done a ton of things is more loyal than someone who's been there for 20 years and does no work.
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@stacksofplates said in Making Business to Candidate Hiring Connections:
@scottalanmiller said in Making Business to Candidate Hiring Connections:
@guyinpv said in Making Business to Candidate Hiring Connections:
This as opposed to hiring some veteran person stuck in their ways and has a hard shell for change.
I feel like this is more the opposite. You get stuck in your ways getting someone that has never left the one company. The only know one thing, they've only seen one thing, they've only done it one way, they know politics rather than IT, they move up normally because they know the system rather than their jobs (good people are less likely to move up compared to connected ones) and they tend to be change averse because that's why they didn't move on somewhere else.
It's people that have moved from company to company that are the least stuck in their ways. They have to be adaptable because they've been forced to adapt time and time again. They have broader perspective and are more likely, even at an older age, to adapt to changing needs, ideas and so forth.
I was talking with a co-worker last week about this. I'll never understand why years spent at a company is looked at as "loyalty." 99.9999999% of the time it's laziness and complacency. A person that's been at a company for a year and has actually done a ton of things is more loyal than someone who's been there for 20 years and does no work.
Totally agreed. Just "not leaving" is a bad reason to reward someone.
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@scottalanmiller said in Making Business to Candidate Hiring Connections:
@dafyre said in Making Business to Candidate Hiring Connections:
@scottalanmiller said in Making Business to Candidate Hiring Connections:
@guyinpv said in Making Business to Candidate Hiring Connections:
As for finding talent. I've seen some new marketplaces come up which help people in certain industries find jobs near and dear to their heart.
For example GitHub's job market. Or StackOverflow's market. Or CodePen's market.Yes, other industries have done this decently well. IT really suffers in trying to make this happen.
Could that be potentially because IT covers such a broad array of topics?
Edit: And the majority of the IT workers are still trying to figure out what area of the spectrum they fall under / want to work in?
Partially, and also because IT tends to be so dramatically disconnected from one another.
I am assuming here that you mean by siloed departments?
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@dafyre said in Making Business to Candidate Hiring Connections:
@scottalanmiller said in Making Business to Candidate Hiring Connections:
@dafyre said in Making Business to Candidate Hiring Connections:
@scottalanmiller said in Making Business to Candidate Hiring Connections:
@guyinpv said in Making Business to Candidate Hiring Connections:
As for finding talent. I've seen some new marketplaces come up which help people in certain industries find jobs near and dear to their heart.
For example GitHub's job market. Or StackOverflow's market. Or CodePen's market.Yes, other industries have done this decently well. IT really suffers in trying to make this happen.
Could that be potentially because IT covers such a broad array of topics?
Edit: And the majority of the IT workers are still trying to figure out what area of the spectrum they fall under / want to work in?
Partially, and also because IT tends to be so dramatically disconnected from one another.
I am assuming here that you mean by siloed departments?
Can be, but moreso company from company.
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A CPA at a farm and one for a restaurant across town do essentially the same job and can fill in for each other easily. Two IT people at two different businesses might have careers that are nothing alike.
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@scottalanmiller said in Making Business to Candidate Hiring Connections:
A CPA at a farm and one for a restaurant across town do essentially the same job and can fill in for each other easily. Two IT people at two different businesses might have careers that are nothing alike.
This is true, but if they are snagged by a third company, it's not like none of their concepts and skills won't transfer.
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@dafyre said in Making Business to Candidate Hiring Connections:
@scottalanmiller said in Making Business to Candidate Hiring Connections:
A CPA at a farm and one for a restaurant across town do essentially the same job and can fill in for each other easily. Two IT people at two different businesses might have careers that are nothing alike.
This is true, but if they are snagged by a third company, it's not like none of their concepts and skills won't transfer.
But they easily won't transfer. Bring the average generalist from the SW community into our shop and they'd not even be able to log in. The different in skills and knowledge between someone who is looking at a desktop GUI and clicking installer icons and a shop that is doing state files to manage automation is enough different than it's like comparing a chef to a dancer. Yeah, they both get dressed before going to work, but it pretty much stops overlapping there.
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@scottalanmiller said in Making Business to Candidate Hiring Connections:
@dafyre said in Making Business to Candidate Hiring Connections:
@scottalanmiller said in Making Business to Candidate Hiring Connections:
A CPA at a farm and one for a restaurant across town do essentially the same job and can fill in for each other easily. Two IT people at two different businesses might have careers that are nothing alike.
This is true, but if they are snagged by a third company, it's not like none of their concepts and skills won't transfer.
But they easily won't transfer. Bring the average generalist from the SW community into our shop and they'd not even be able to log in. The different in skills and knowledge between someone who is looking at a desktop GUI and clicking installer icons and a shop that is doing state files to manage automation is enough different than it's like comparing a chef to a dancer. Yeah, they both get dressed before going to work, but it pretty much stops overlapping there.
Can't this just be rolled up into the idea that most of the time, if not 100% of the time, any new hire in an IT position is going to need time to adjust and learn the architecture and systems in use and get some initial training?
I think the quality of an IT person is not that they studied everything under the sun and thus understand and know all systems everywhere, all hardware, all software, all network designs, all system management methods, techniques, and tools.
The quality is that an IT person is a nerd, and they like this stuff, and learning it comes relatively naturally and relatively quickly.
I've tried for 6 years to get people to understand that when one website doesn't work, they shouldn't run around the office saying "the Internet is down!" But they don't get it.
An IT person just "gets it". They have some kind of basic understanding of how tech works. Their brains don't go into shock with cognitive dissonance at the idea that left clicks and right clicks are two different things, and when to use them.I guess I'm just saying, it's one thing to demand a specific list of skills or experience with specific hardware or software; but on the other hand, most good IT people could learn a simple piece of software in an afternoon. Or the configuration of a simple piece of hardware in a week. Or if worse comes to worse, a more complex software or hardware in a matter of weeks or a few months.
In this light, it's better to find a person who has some level of nerdy intuition, who just loves technology, who can understand concepts quickly and can learn, rather than only looking for a person who already knows precisely your entire technology stack. Unless that is what the company absolutely needs.
I know it's not that simple, but it's not like a chef and a dancer. It's like, an Asian chef who has to learn Italian cuisine. Lots of learning, lots of new stuff, but they "get it", they "know food", so it won't be that bad of a learning experience.
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@scottalanmiller said in Making Business to Candidate Hiring Connections:
@dafyre said in Making Business to Candidate Hiring Connections:
@scottalanmiller said in Making Business to Candidate Hiring Connections:
A CPA at a farm and one for a restaurant across town do essentially the same job and can fill in for each other easily. Two IT people at two different businesses might have careers that are nothing alike.
This is true, but if they are snagged by a third company, it's not like none of their concepts and skills won't transfer.
But they easily won't transfer. Bring the average generalist from the SW community into our shop and they'd not even be able to log in. The different in skills and knowledge between someone who is looking at a desktop GUI and clicking installer icons and a shop that is doing state files to manage automation is enough different than it's like comparing a chef to a dancer. Yeah, they both get dressed before going to work, but it pretty much stops overlapping there.
Of course they wouldn't transfer if you're going from a Windows Shop to a Linux shop... or form actually doing installs to something like a state engine.
This is what you try to avoid by using whatever methods are available to a Fortune 1000 (a head hunter, or is that the wrong term here?) to not hire the wrong person. Ideally, Company C wouldn't hire a Windows admin and stick him in Linux infrastructure with no experience.
But if you take a Windows admin and move from Company A to Company C in a Windows admin role, the only new things that have to be learned would be the way Company C functions.
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@dafyre said in Making Business to Candidate Hiring Connections:
@scottalanmiller said in Making Business to Candidate Hiring Connections:
@dafyre said in Making Business to Candidate Hiring Connections:
@scottalanmiller said in Making Business to Candidate Hiring Connections:
A CPA at a farm and one for a restaurant across town do essentially the same job and can fill in for each other easily. Two IT people at two different businesses might have careers that are nothing alike.
This is true, but if they are snagged by a third company, it's not like none of their concepts and skills won't transfer.
But they easily won't transfer. Bring the average generalist from the SW community into our shop and they'd not even be able to log in. The different in skills and knowledge between someone who is looking at a desktop GUI and clicking installer icons and a shop that is doing state files to manage automation is enough different than it's like comparing a chef to a dancer. Yeah, they both get dressed before going to work, but it pretty much stops overlapping there.
Of course they wouldn't transfer if you're going from a Windows Shop to a Linux shop... or form actually doing installs to something like a state engine.
This is what you try to avoid by using whatever methods are available to a Fortune 1000 (a head hunter, or is that the wrong term here?) to not hire the wrong person. Ideally, Company C wouldn't hire a Windows admin and stick him in Linux infrastructure with no experience.
You just assumed that the issues are Windows and Linux. But they are not. They are little SW shop and competent shop. In this example, it's a common model for startups (under 200 people, often below 20) in Silicon Valley. There is nothing "enterprise scale" in these solutions. It's just different assumed approaches in managing the same environments. Can be all Windows, the GUI shop might be the bigger one (often is.)
All of your assumptions are wrong from my real world examples in the last two years. Not that they don't happen as well, but they are not in any way the bases for the issue that different shops doing things completely different. To the point that people in one type just assume things about the other that are totally unfounded - like the tech or size we see here. That's how different it is between similar sized and types of shops, they don't even understand each other.
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@dafyre said in Making Business to Candidate Hiring Connections:
But if you take a Windows admin and move from Company A to Company C in a Windows admin role, the only new things that have to be learned would be the way Company C functions.
Nope, Windows Admins in one of the world's largest and most profitable financial firms in an IT department of 450 would be the GUI users in my example, and the state system is a Windows desktop environment with two IT guys in a non-profit.
Kind of shakes up your perception, right? But that's the real environment switch I did in 2014.
