Latest from Lenovo - locked in to Windows
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Matthew Garret of CoreOS on Twitter (@mjg59)
Lenovo aren't deliberately blocking free software on recent laptops (spoiler: it's Intel's fault)
OH MY GOD the person who started the Lenovo shitstorm is Ryan Farmer https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Microsoft-Signature-PC-No-Linux …, who spammed me after I debunked him in 2008
Summary: This guy has a history of making over the top accusations, and responds badly when called on it. Don't enable him.
The background is straightforward. Intel platforms allow the storage to be configured in two different ways - "standard" (normal AHCI on SATA systems, normal NVMe on NVMe systems) or "RAID". "RAID" mode is typically just changing the PCI IDs so that the normal drivers won't bind, ensuring that drivers that support the software RAID mode are used. Intel have not submitted any patches to Linux to support the "RAID" mode.
In this specific case, Lenovo's firmware defaults to "RAID" mode and doesn't allow you to change that. Since Linux has no support for the hardware when configured this way, you can't install Linux (distribution installers will boot, but won't find any storage device to install the OS to).
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The real problem here is that Intel do very little to ensure that free operating systems work well on their consumer hardware - we still have no information from Intel on how to configure systems to ensure good power management, we have no support for storage devices in "RAID" mode and we have no indication that this is going to get better in future. If Intel had provided that support, this issue would never have occurred. Rather than be angry at Lenovo, let's put pressure on Intel to provide support for their hardware. -
@aidan_walsh nice find!
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@aidan_walsh said in Latest from Lenovo - locked in to Windows:
In this specific case, Lenovo's firmware defaults to "RAID" mode and doesn't allow you to change that. Since Linux has no support for the hardware when configured this way, you can't install Linux.
I'm confused. He writes like he is debunking that Lenovo is blocking Linux, then explains exactly how Lenovo is blocking Linux. Um... clearly Lenovo is doing the blocking, not Intel. Intel might make the tools for it, but Intel on any other vendor has no problem. The problem isn't Intel here at all. That's misdirection. Lenovo changed the default (not good) and then locked it to that (very bad.) This isn't just bad for Linux users, Intel RAID is unthinkably bad on Windows, too.
The author is using "tone" to try to make it sound like Intel is at fault here, but his words confirm that it is Lenovo 100%.
And he doesn't say that the guy making the claim is wrong, only that he was wrong in the past. More misdirection. He's attacking the person's character, but never disputes the claim itself.
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TL;DR - clusterfuck, severity level 3/10.
Linux driver support still blows - this is not news.
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I'm calling Matthew Garret out for these:
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem
"Ad hominem attacks can take the form of overtly attacking somebody, or more subtly casting doubt on their character or personal attributes as a way to discredit their argument. The result of an ad hom attack can be to undermine someone's case without actually having to engage with it." - He attacked the person pointing out the problem, not the problem itself.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ambiguity
"Politicians are often guilty of using ambiguity to mislead and will later point to how they were technically not outright lying if they come under scrutiny. The reason that it qualifies as a fallacy is that it is intrinsically misleading." - Used tone to make it sound like the opposite of his words were true.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white
"Also known as the false dilemma, this insidious tactic has the appearance of forming a logical argument, but under closer scrutiny it becomes evident that there are more possibilities than the either/or choice that is presented. Binary, black-or-white thinking doesn't allow for the many different variables, conditions, and contexts in which there would exist more than just the two possibilities put forth. It frames the argument misleadingly and obscures rational, honest debate." - He suggests that because Intel enabled the blocking, that Lenovo using it wasn't Lenovo's fault. But Intel isn't a player here, they forced nothing to be done wrong.
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@MattSpeller said in Latest from Lenovo - locked in to Windows:
Linux driver support still blows - this is not news.
False. Linux driver support is amazing. Better than Windows, I think that you will find. The issue here is bad hardware that there is no reason someone would want a driver for. The "driver" in question here is the infamous Intel FakeRAID driver that no one actually wants. Not having it could be argued to be better support, in fact.
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yeah it's crappy that Lenovo enabled the FakeRAID by default, but is it true that it can't be disabled?
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@Dashrender said in Latest from Lenovo - locked in to Windows:
yeah it's crappy that Lenovo enabled the FakeRAID by default, but is it true that it can't be disabled?
If I were to put money down, it'd be that changing it breaks the OS boot sequence.
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Something to keep in mind this is a consumer machine. Dell and Asus both pull crap on their consumer systems.
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@travisdh1 said in Latest from Lenovo - locked in to Windows:
@Dashrender said in Latest from Lenovo - locked in to Windows:
yeah it's crappy that Lenovo enabled the FakeRAID by default, but is it true that it can't be disabled?
If I were to put money down, it'd be that changing it breaks the OS boot sequence.
not boot sequence, but it does change the labels in the BIOS/UEFI, so the drive might not recognize itself during boot. But the point I was driving at, if you're goal is to install Linux, can you not change that setting to non FakeRAID in the stated devices? Like seriously, Lenovo requires that the FakeRAID driver be used - if that's the case, then again, this is just one more F*up on the part of Lenovo! They seriously hate their customers don't they?
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@Dashrender said in Latest from Lenovo - locked in to Windows:
@travisdh1 said in Latest from Lenovo - locked in to Windows:
@Dashrender said in Latest from Lenovo - locked in to Windows:
yeah it's crappy that Lenovo enabled the FakeRAID by default, but is it true that it can't be disabled?
If I were to put money down, it'd be that changing it breaks the OS boot sequence.
not boot sequence, but it does change the labels in the BIOS/UEFI, so the drive might not recognize itself during boot. But the point I was driving at, if you're goal is to install Linux, can you not change that setting to non FakeRAID in the stated devices? Like seriously, Lenovo requires that the FakeRAID driver be used - if that's the case, then again, this is just one more F*up on the part of Lenovo! They seriously hate their customers don't they?
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@Dashrender said in Latest from Lenovo - locked in to Windows:
yeah it's crappy that Lenovo enabled the FakeRAID by default, but is it true that it can't be disabled?
No not of as yet. It's Microsoft's requirement here not Lenovo's This is because the Lenovo Yoga 900 is part of the Microsoft Signature Series. It's mostly sold at Best buy I believe.
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All of these here will be in the same boat
https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/cat/Signature-Edition-PCs/categoryID.69916600
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So I recall when MS originally was looking to require OEMs to enable Secure Boot and not allow the end user to disable it.
It sounds like we are back in that same boat.
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@Dashrender said in Latest from Lenovo - locked in to Windows:
So I recall when MS originally was looking to require OEMs to enable Secure Boot and not allow the end user to disable it.
It sounds like we are back in that same boat.
Yes, it's all on Microsoft. Not Lenovo.
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@Jason said in Latest from Lenovo - locked in to Windows:
All of these here will be in the same boat
https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/cat/Signature-Edition-PCs/categoryID.69916600
I feel that this is an unfair generalization. If this is the case, then it's MS that's replacing the BIOS/UEFI in the laptops with something that locks them to MS OSs. At which point this would be all MS's fault, not Lenovo's.
BUT if this version of the UEFI can be found in the non MS Signature version, then this is Lenovo's doing. Now the question would be, are other vendors following suit?
OH, when did buying MS Signature edition PCs become a thing at Best Buy?
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@Dashrender said in Latest from Lenovo - locked in to Windows:
OH, when did buying MS Signature edition PCs become a thing at Best Buy?
Sales. Microsoft pays for some of it. maybe even gives the windows license free not sure.
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@Dashrender said in Latest from Lenovo - locked in to Windows:
@Jason said in Latest from Lenovo - locked in to Windows:
All of these here will be in the same boat
https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/cat/Signature-Edition-PCs/categoryID.69916600
I feel that this is an unfair generalization. If this is the case, then it's MS that's replacing the BIOS/UEFI in the laptops with something that locks them to MS OSs. At which point this would be all MS's fault, not Lenovo's.
No they aren't replacing it. Companies need to make money, Microsoft offers this porgram to make money. It's not bad for most non-power users (home users) makes microsoft money. So it's not hurting most people. And Lenovo, HP, MSI, ASUS etc all are part of the program to make money. It's Microsoft requirements.
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@Jason said in Latest from Lenovo - locked in to Windows:
@Dashrender said in Latest from Lenovo - locked in to Windows:
OH, when did buying MS Signature edition PCs become a thing at Best Buy?
Sales. Microsoft pays for some of it. maybe even gives the windows license free not sure.
HUH?
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He wouldn't buy his laptop at BestBuy. (This is just a bold assumption, I'll wait for @MattSpeller 's comment for official validation)
