Negotiating a retention bonus
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@scottalanmiller said:
That's a common approach. Don't leave yourself vulnerable. Your relationship with the current job is done, that's just something that seems like you need to accept. But providing contracting back in a "relationless" mode can make a lot of sense. But never give them career leverage, the time for that has past.
Very few people find themselves in your position Scott. One where money barely matters and the jobs/careers are knocking your door down.
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@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
That's a common approach. Don't leave yourself vulnerable. Your relationship with the current job is done, that's just something that seems like you need to accept. But providing contracting back in a "relationless" mode can make a lot of sense. But never give them career leverage, the time for that has past.
Very few people find themselves in your position Scott. One where money barely matters and the jobs/careers are knocking your door down.
Scott's fiscal and professional opportunities have nothing to do with this one.
Q: If I was worth and immediate 30k more to that employer, why were they not paying me more?
A: Because they were taking advantage of me for the benefit of the company.
Now, this is what a company should do to an extent. Because it is a for profit entity. but that extent has to be tempered by what it takes to keep employees. Constantly underpaying will not keep you in business.
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@JaredBusch said:
Q: If I was worth and immediate 30k more to that employer, why were they not paying me more?
I have a hard time with this one, My first response would be
A: because you didn't ask for more.Oddly enough I had a situation like this happen. I was hired for a position and at the end of the first year I felt that my growth warranted a $5K raise to put me in the starting range of a Linux admin (this was 13 years ago - haven't really touched Linux since I left there). Lucky for me when I had the sit down with my boss, he had already done the leg work and was offering me something more than the $5K I was going to ask for - win/win!
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But I also heard this story/fable.
A person gets a job at a newspaper, before he is hired he is asked what he feels he should make. For the sake of the story we'll say he says $20K. The newspaper hires him and offered him $20K. Some weeks latter he finds out that the other 4 people they hired around the same time for the same jobs were all making roughly $30K. He storms into the bosses office and demands to know why he's being paid so much less than the other people doing the same job. (also there is an assumption for the sake of the story that all parties come with the same level of experience/education).
The boss looks at him and says, "we gave you exactly what you asked for, why are you mad?"
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@Dashrender said:
@JaredBusch said:
Q: If I was worth and immediate 30k more to that employer, why were they not paying me more?
I have a hard time with this one, My first response would be
A: because you didn't ask for more.And you would be wrong. I had multiple times.
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@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
That's a common approach. Don't leave yourself vulnerable. Your relationship with the current job is done, that's just something that seems like you need to accept. But providing contracting back in a "relationless" mode can make a lot of sense. But never give them career leverage, the time for that has past.
Very few people find themselves in your position Scott. One where money barely matters and the jobs/careers are knocking your door down.
The constant response that everything us "unique to me" doesn't help. The perspective is universal. In fact, if the theory is that I have the best career options, then this would apply the least to me as I'd, by that theory, be harder to threaten. The less control you have over your career, the more important this would be, not the less.
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@JaredBusch said:
@Dashrender said:
@JaredBusch said:
Q: If I was worth and immediate 30k more to that employer, why were they not paying me more?
I have a hard time with this one, My first response would be
A: because you didn't ask for more.And you would be wrong. I had multiple times.
Well in that case the company didn't think you were worth it until you had a better offer to threaten them with.. but you clearly made the right choice.. and they suffered for it... they suffered for their lack of appreciating you and your growth and added value to the company.
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@Dashrender said:
@JaredBusch said:
Q: If I was worth and immediate 30k more to that employer, why were they not paying me more?
I have a hard time with this one, My first response would be
A: because you didn't ask for more.That's a COMPLETELY different case. Asking to negotiate is a constant part of being an employee. Going to another employer, getting an offer, without honestly intending to accept the job but to threaten the current employer with career extortion is a poisoned well to the old employer and a dishonest transaction with the new one.
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@Dashrender said:
Oddly enough I had a situation like this happen. I was hired for a position and at the end of the first year I felt that my growth warranted a $5K raise to put me in the starting range of a Linux admin (this was 13 years ago - haven't really touched Linux since I left there). Lucky for me when I had the sit down with my boss, he had already done the leg work and was offering me something more than the $5K I was going to ask for - win/win!
How is this story like one where you had a conversation, were told you were not worth they money and then got an offer from someone else and instead of taking that job used that offer to extort a higher salary from the existing employer that just claimed you were not worth the money you are now demanding?
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@Dashrender said:
But I also heard this story/fable.
A person gets a job at a newspaper, before he is hired he is asked what he feels he should make. For the sake of the story we'll say he says $20K. The newspaper hires him and offered him $20K. Some weeks latter he finds out that the other 4 people they hired around the same time for the same jobs were all making roughly $30K. He storms into the bosses office and demands to know why he's being paid so much less than the other people doing the same job. (also there is an assumption for the sake of the story that all parties come with the same level of experience/education).
The boss looks at him and says, "we gave you exactly what you asked for, why are you mad?"
Again, nothing like the scenario at hand. You are quoting the exact opposite. He is not getting the money that he has asked for. You keep using a case where they are failing to negotiate and are only dealing with the current job. We are talking about the opposite case - where he is negotiating AND goes to another job.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
That's a common approach. Don't leave yourself vulnerable. Your relationship with the current job is done, that's just something that seems like you need to accept. But providing contracting back in a "relationless" mode can make a lot of sense. But never give them career leverage, the time for that has past.
Very few people find themselves in your position Scott. One where money barely matters and the jobs/careers are knocking your door down.
The constant response that everything us "unique to me" doesn't help. The perspective is universal. In fact, if the theory is that I have the best career options, then this would apply the least to me as I'd, by that theory, be harder to threaten. The less control you have over your career, the more important this would be, not the less.
How are you not impossible to threaten? At least threaten to take your job away, you don't care - You have a personal desire to change jobs every few years, you have have offers coming out of every direction, and you're financially sound so you can survive, I'm assuming for quite some time with no job what so ever if you found a situation where that was required.
Those things make you damned hard to threaten.
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@Dashrender said:
How are you not impossible to threaten? At least threaten to take your job away, you don't care - You have a personal desire to change jobs every few years, you have have offers coming out of every direction, and you're financially sound so you can survive, I'm assuming for quite some time with no job what so ever if you found a situation where that was required.
Those things make you damned hard to threaten.
Exactly, so you are supporting my point now? I'm confused.
This is general advice. The more you need a company to treat you well, the more you don't poison wells and burn bridges.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
Oddly enough I had a situation like this happen. I was hired for a position and at the end of the first year I felt that my growth warranted a $5K raise to put me in the starting range of a Linux admin (this was 13 years ago - haven't really touched Linux since I left there). Lucky for me when I had the sit down with my boss, he had already done the leg work and was offering me something more than the $5K I was going to ask for - win/win!
How is this story like one where you had a conversation, were told you were not worth they money and then got an offer from someone else and instead of taking that job used that offer to extort a higher salary from the existing employer that just claimed you were not worth the money you are now demanding?
You're right.. my story doesn't match up to JB's.. but JB didn't try to extort anyone either.. from the sounds of.. JB's employer heard what the new job was willing to pay and freaked out realizing they were loosing their guy and decided to try to keep him.
I had a friend who was told to come in and interview for a position that someone we knew was moving out of (the someone was leaving the area). My friend applied and was given the job, but they weren't happy that they were having to pay $20K/yr more but they were desperate. 6 months later they fired my friend and hired in a person at the old rate. In this case they only hired my friend to get over the hump until they could get the coverage at the price they wanted...
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@Dashrender said:
You're right.. my story doesn't match up to JB's.. but JB didn't try to extort anyone either.. from the sounds of.. JB's employer heard what the new job was willing to pay and freaked out realizing they were loosing their guy and decided to try to keep him.
You are leaving out the critical part.... after they had turned down giving him the raise without the threat of the new job.
If they felt that he was worth the money why would it require trying to trick him into burning his bridge with the new company?
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@Dashrender said:
I had a friend who was told to come in and interview for a position that someone we knew was moving out of (the someone was leaving the area). My friend applied and was given the job, but they weren't happy that they were having to pay $20K/yr more but they were desperate. 6 months later they fired my friend and hired in a person at the old rate. In this case they only hired my friend to get over the hump until they could get the coverage at the price they wanted...
Yup, that's why you do your best to avoid those situations. That's the kind of position you are in any time you are dealing with a "negotiation with competing contract." You are trying to bully the company into paying more than they want to pay - which might work but rarely works out well. Companies are either then looking to replace you with the rate that they wanted or will find ways to lower your pay over time or whatever. It's never a good situation in the long term. If you are just trying to buy a few weeks or whatever, well, you can do that but again... burning bridges.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
You're right.. my story doesn't match up to JB's.. but JB didn't try to extort anyone either.. from the sounds of.. JB's employer heard what the new job was willing to pay and freaked out realizing they were loosing their guy and decided to try to keep him.
You are leaving out the critical part.... after they had turned down giving him the raise without the threat of the new job.
If they felt that he was worth the money why would it require trying to trick him into burning his bridge with the new company?
JB didn't post that he asked for raises before he was going to leave, so why would I assume he did ask?
He posted it after I provided a reason they didn't give him more money.. of course that information changes his situation and the story severely. -
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
You're right.. my story doesn't match up to JB's.. but JB didn't try to extort anyone either.. from the sounds of.. JB's employer heard what the new job was willing to pay and freaked out realizing they were loosing their guy and decided to try to keep him.
You are leaving out the critical part.... after they had turned down giving him the raise without the threat of the new job.
If they felt that he was worth the money why would it require trying to trick him into burning his bridge with the new company?
JB didn't post that he asked for raises before he was going to leave, so why would I assume he did ask?
Because that's the context of the thread. The story only makes sense to tell with that assumption. And only makes sense in general with that assumption as well.
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Here is the high level recap of the "rule of thumb"....
When an old job doesn't agree that you are worth X, and then a new job offers you X and you go back to the old job with that offer and they change their tune, that's negotiating under extortion.
We could go on and on with the nuances of why this is never good. There are all kinds of problems. But the BIG one is....
The company that doesn't know you and your work offered you better pay in good faith. The old job even knowing your work and experience is only doing so under threat. Which do you think will work out well, the job that is excited to get you or the one that feels backed into a corner to keep you?
Don't make your job a caged animal when there is someone who wants you to work for them trying to hire you.
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Going out and getting offers from a new job in order to pressure a new job does several things:
- It tips your hand and lets everyone know the maximum that you are worth on the market. You have less, not more, bargaining power long term.
- It pushed the old job to accept terms it openly does not agree with but feels that it has to accept short term - meaning that long term they will seek to rectify the situation and they will have increasing power to do this over time (unless you have secrets to play like that you are quitting to relocate in a few months.)
- It requires that you go through the motions with a new job with no true intent to take the job. This violates good faith and is both unprofessional and somewhat unethical wasting honest peoples' time. If the potential new employer learns of this, that bridge is likely burned.
- The old employer knows that as you do this, their hand gets strong and yours gets weaker with each passing offer.
- If people learn that you are going through these cycles, it burns bridges by reputation.
In the long run, you lose and big time. It's a manoeuvre that gives your existing employer more and more advantage as you try to do it.
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In a worst case scenario, and this is sadly common for people who live outside of big IT markets, there might only be two or three jobs that can reasonably hire us in any market. This is a real concern.
In a case where you don't have "unlimited" job options, you want to be very wary of any salary manoeuvre that involves having your current job have a major incentive to phase you out as quickly as possible while having simultaneously taken your best bet at a job to go to and making them distrust you too.
In six months your current job might lay you off or just lower your salary or, if they really want to be mean, tell you that they will start lowering your salary until you find another job to match it and they will keep you on slightly above that rate. You could find your pay just going down and down.
