Is Texas Next?
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@MattSpeller said in Is Texas Next?:
To be clear I don't know if that's good, bad or indifferent though I lean towards good but super dangerous. Does the good that it does outweigh the potential for harm? Is there any way we can quantify that?
I'll throw in hopefully a few neutral thoughts....
- The current statistics on the safety of law enforcement are not the best. Not as horrible as one camp suggests but not nearly as good as they should be.
- Statistically carrying a gun is dangerous for everyone. On average it is bad.
- Statistically doesn't apply to someone who takes a lot of care and training because statistically they don't even register as they are so uncommon in the numbers.
- Private citizens with guns have rights and powers that cops do not and can sometimes do important things that cops cannot.
Hopefully none of those convey opinion but only the underlying math of why one thing or another makes sense.
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@MattSpeller said in Is Texas Next?:
@BBigford said in Is Texas Next?:
@MattSpeller said in Is Texas Next?:
@BBigford said in Is Texas Next?:
@MattSpeller said in Is Texas Next?:
@BBigford I share your enthusiasm for firearms even if I do not own nearly as many. What I don't understand is why anyone would carry one around. It.... just does not compute for me. We may need another thread for just that.
Aside from a few home invasion attempts in various cities, I've also had various people try to enter our vehicle when we come to a stop sign or pedestrian crossings. We have the doors locked so I typically just pull away quickly when I hear them on the door handle. Some areas were very nice neighborhoods and they were just dumb kids that looked like they were on drugs, others were sketchy neighborhoods that couldn't have been avoided because of how the layout of the city was and where our destination was.
I also have been approached when I'm biking or on foot by aggressive homeless people in some of the parks that I will jog in or bike on the trail. A gun is just a tool, nothing more. You can't brandish it at someone to intimidate them or make them go away. But if it comes down to it, you have the tool to survive a situation. Luckily I've never had to draw on someone, and I hope I never have to. But if I'm put in that situation, I won't be the one that ends up in the obituaries and force my family to find another means of financial support. That's why I carry a firearm.
You have noble motives and from what you posted previously you are probably better trained than many police officers. Infact I know you are because I shoot with many of them here and they definitely do not train that hard haha.
I (personally!) can't justify the extreme responsibility of carrying a firearm out of fear. Out of duty like a police officer, absolutely. But without a societal role and responsibility to your fellow citizens hell no. Maybe it's because handguns are so rare here? Maybe it's crime? Maybe no one messes with 6' tall, young, well dressed gentlemen built like brick outhouses? Whatever the reason the whole idea gives me the creeps.
However I could imagine having a professional militia who were trained and held to high standards being allowed to carry. Just any regular mouth breathing moron though? These are the things nightmares are made of.
I wouldn't put myself on any level with law enforcement.
Initial throat clearing:
I want to be incredibly clear I'm just asking questions in a calm respectful manner - I am super curious about motivations behind this and I CRAVE an open and honest and calm discussion about all of it. It's one of the most prescient questions of our time and I spend quite a bit of thought on it.From your second paragraph isn't that what you've become though? Psudo law enforcement?
To be clear I don't know if that's good, bad or indifferent though I lean towards good but super dangerous. Does the good that it does outweigh the potential for harm? Is there any way we can quantify that?
I don't think so, no. It takes the sheriff's about 20 minutes to get to my house during an emergency. Most break-in murders will happen in about 20 seconds so I need a way to act. As far as helping people on the street, I would only use deadly force with an attacker in life or death situations. If someone wasn't being held with a deadly weapon or even physically assaulted to a degree I thought they would be beaten to death, then I would use physical force if need be. Most situations a simple phone call to law enforcement is more than enough. I just wasn't raised to stand by and not act, but was also raised not to be stupid and get yourself killed.
For example: Someone is on top of another person punching them, and the person is unconscious, I will have my hand on my holstered firearm, shouting commands to stop. After a few commands I will go up behind them and kick them off, drawing if they have a weapon or try to get up and come after me. If they have a deadly weapon and are about to kill the person on the ground, I'll pull and fire. You'd have to assert that isn't a police officer, but even if they were an officer, they wouldn't be trying to kill an unconscious or unarmed person. There's lots of variables though.
Another example: Someone has an assault rifle in a park, wide open space with long range distances and has a hostage, or multiple. I'm not acting. I'm calling law enforcement because that is far beyond what I should be engaging in. Not only will it probably get me killed, but it could cause harm to innocent people in the process.
I can see what you mean by pseudo law enforcement though. But it's not as if I'm a vigilante that is fighting crime or something. I just carry it for the most extreme circumstances that, unless I act within a matter of seconds, not minutes, I or some innocent person will die. People sometimes judge me pretty harshly, but I'm not going to stop having that mentality of protecting myself and others. That's just how I was raised and I'd sacrifice my life to save another.
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@MattSpeller said in Is Texas Next?:
@BBigford said in Is Texas Next?:
@MattSpeller said in Is Texas Next?:
@BBigford said in Is Texas Next?:
@MattSpeller said in Is Texas Next?:
@BBigford I share your enthusiasm for firearms even if I do not own nearly as many. What I don't understand is why anyone would carry one around. It.... just does not compute for me. We may need another thread for just that.
Aside from a few home invasion attempts in various cities, I've also had various people try to enter our vehicle when we come to a stop sign or pedestrian crossings. We have the doors locked so I typically just pull away quickly when I hear them on the door handle. Some areas were very nice neighborhoods and they were just dumb kids that looked like they were on drugs, others were sketchy neighborhoods that couldn't have been avoided because of how the layout of the city was and where our destination was.
I also have been approached when I'm biking or on foot by aggressive homeless people in some of the parks that I will jog in or bike on the trail. A gun is just a tool, nothing more. You can't brandish it at someone to intimidate them or make them go away. But if it comes down to it, you have the tool to survive a situation. Luckily I've never had to draw on someone, and I hope I never have to. But if I'm put in that situation, I won't be the one that ends up in the obituaries and force my family to find another means of financial support. That's why I carry a firearm.
You have noble motives and from what you posted previously you are probably better trained than many police officers. Infact I know you are because I shoot with many of them here and they definitely do not train that hard haha.
I (personally!) can't justify the extreme responsibility of carrying a firearm out of fear. Out of duty like a police officer, absolutely. But without a societal role and responsibility to your fellow citizens hell no. Maybe it's because handguns are so rare here? Maybe it's crime? Maybe no one messes with 6' tall, young, well dressed gentlemen built like brick outhouses? Whatever the reason the whole idea gives me the creeps.
However I could imagine having a professional militia who were trained and held to high standards being allowed to carry. Just any regular mouth breathing moron though? These are the things nightmares are made of.
I wouldn't put myself on any level with law enforcement.
Initial throat clearing:
I want to be incredibly clear I'm just asking questions in a calm respectful manner - I am super curious about motivations behind this and I CRAVE an open and honest and calm discussion about all of it. It's one of the most prescient questions of our time and I spend quite a bit of thought on it.From your second paragraph isn't that what you've become though? Psudo law enforcement?
To be clear I don't know if that's good, bad or indifferent though I lean towards good but super dangerous. Does the good that it does outweigh the potential for harm? Is there any way we can quantify that?
You also have to remember that you don't draw your weapon with every situation. The act of even drawing your firearm just opened up a lot of legality that you have to defend in court (potentially). There are lots of steps before that from verbal commands, body posture to disrupt their mentality about taking over the situation, physical assertion like kicking them off someone or punching them if they assault you (though that one is blurred because if you hit them first, you can't draw. If you instigate a fight verbally or antagonize them, you can't draw), etc. If I draw, I'm going to fire. There is lots of times where police officers draw and don't fire because they have even more variables and scenarios to worry about. Plus they don't have to worry about defending an intentional brandishing or drawing on someone who is acting out of order.
The one about fighting someone. That's where Texas differs from Idaho. Idaho says retreat, Texas says stand your ground. In Idaho, you're supposed to flea, but if you don't have time and they go into a hail of fights then you run the risk of being beaten to death so you have to make a lasting decision right then by either throwing punches, trying to run, or pulling your gun out and acting. But as soon as you unholster that gun, you may end up in court. Just have to make sure that you did everything correctly. If you got into a verbal argument by insulting them or anything similar, followed by them throwing punches and you end up shooting them, you are in really deep trouble because you essentially fueled the situation with the argument.
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@scottalanmiller If Texas goes, I'm moving in before they do!
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@scottalanmiller said in Is Texas Next?:
@BBigford said in Is Texas Next?:
@coliver said in Is Texas Next?:
@BBigford said in Is Texas Next?:
@coliver said in Is Texas Next?:
I'm game for it. I don't really know of any major product that we still get from Texas. Thinking of major historical exports all of them have been taken over and done more efficiently by other states/countries.
The only thing that will be an issue for me is that if Texas does leave the US it will end up being a third world country in parts that aren't DFW or Austin.
Idaho uses them as a staple for gun law comparisons. So as an Idahoan, that affects me. Everything else, maybe just oil and other fossil fuels?
Haha, does Idaho often argue to become more like Texas?
Yeah. As of the first of July all Idahoans can carry concealed without a permit. I have a permit, and don't agree necessarily with that law. People need proper training not just on the weapons themselves, but the laws.
Now there is a place to avoid. damn.
Seriously? I have no idea on the % of people who carry in Texas, but I definitely don't hear about shootings in Texas like I do from Chicago. That's not to say it doesn't happen, I'm sure it does.
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@travisdh1 said in Is Texas Next?:
@scottalanmiller If Texas goes, I'm moving in before they do!
It might be a very good thing. I'm not pro or anti Texas, but I think that Texas and the US being separate is probably better for both. It'll be tough and Texas totally failed at this the last time that they went it alone and the US had to bail them out, but hopefully they are bigger and stronger now and can make it work.
Texas and the US would remain tight trade partners, I'm sure. Not like there is animosity. Just each would be governed better without the other.
I think most people in independent Texas would be shocked when the state goes liberal and speaks Spanish, though, which is likely to happen in the next few years regardless of being separate or not.
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@Dashrender said in Is Texas Next?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is Texas Next?:
@BBigford said in Is Texas Next?:
@coliver said in Is Texas Next?:
@BBigford said in Is Texas Next?:
@coliver said in Is Texas Next?:
I'm game for it. I don't really know of any major product that we still get from Texas. Thinking of major historical exports all of them have been taken over and done more efficiently by other states/countries.
The only thing that will be an issue for me is that if Texas does leave the US it will end up being a third world country in parts that aren't DFW or Austin.
Idaho uses them as a staple for gun law comparisons. So as an Idahoan, that affects me. Everything else, maybe just oil and other fossil fuels?
Haha, does Idaho often argue to become more like Texas?
Yeah. As of the first of July all Idahoans can carry concealed without a permit. I have a permit, and don't agree necessarily with that law. People need proper training not just on the weapons themselves, but the laws.
Now there is a place to avoid. damn.
Seriously? I have no idea on the % of people who carry in Texas, but I definitely don't hear about shootings in Texas like I do from Chicago. That's not to say it doesn't happen, I'm sure it does.
I don't find either Texas or Chicago as scary sounding as Idaho, apparently
Chicago isn't as bad as Rochester. Chicago only sounds worse because of the number of shootings, but Rochester always beets it on shootings per capita.
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@aaron said in Is Texas Next?:
Last time I looked into this, it was wasn't actually possible for Texas to leave the union peacefully. It'd be akin to a civil war and the threats of seccession are just stunts.
It can, just not by its own choice. The other states absolutely have the right to vote to let them go. But Texas needs to vote to want to leave first. Texas absolutely has zero right to just "choose to leave." There isn't the slightest doubt there no matter what ridiculous crap they lie about in Texas schools. But that the US will consider a peaceful secession with proper votes on both sides is widely seen as possible and is certainly legal.
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@BBigford said in Is Texas Next?:
@MattSpeller said in Is Texas Next?:
@BBigford I share your enthusiasm for firearms even if I do not own nearly as many. What I don't understand is why anyone would carry one around. It.... just does not compute for me. We may need another thread for just that.
Aside from a few home invasion attempts in various cities, I've also had various people try to enter our vehicle when we come to a stop sign or pedestrian crossings. We have the doors locked so I typically just pull away quickly when I hear them on the door handle. Some areas were very nice neighborhoods and they were just dumb kids that looked like they were on drugs, others were sketchy neighborhoods that couldn't have been avoided because of how the layout of the city was and where our destination was.
I also have been approached when I'm biking or on foot by aggressive homeless people in some of the parks that I will jog in or bike on the trail. A gun is just a tool, nothing more. You can't brandish it at someone to intimidate them or make them go away. But if it comes down to it, you have the tool to survive a situation. Luckily I've never had to draw on someone, and I hope I never have to. But if I'm put in that situation, I won't be the one that ends up in the obituaries and force my family to find another means of financial support. That's why I carry a firearm.
Land of the free? Armed to teeths? Hijacking in the middle of nowhere? That scares the hell out of me, really. What's the point in living in such an area? And sure, there are dangerous hotspot areas here too, but nothing this serious I guess.
Saw once some documentary comparing Detroit to a neighboring city on the other side of the border (London/CA?): High crime and tons of weapons in Detroit and so on and next to no weapons and left open doors in the other city.
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@thwr said in Is Texas Next?:
Saw once some documentary comparing Detroit to a neighboring city on the other side of the border (London/CA?): High crime and tons of weapons in Detroit and so on and next to no weapons and left open doors in the other city.
Yeah, Detroit and Windsor can see each other but are worlds apart. One is insanely dangerous, the other significantly safe. It's really weird.
But to be fair, El Paso and Juarez are the same in the other direction.
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@thwr said in Is Texas Next?:
@BBigford said in Is Texas Next?:
@MattSpeller said in Is Texas Next?:
@BBigford I share your enthusiasm for firearms even if I do not own nearly as many. What I don't understand is why anyone would carry one around. It.... just does not compute for me. We may need another thread for just that.
Aside from a few home invasion attempts in various cities, I've also had various people try to enter our vehicle when we come to a stop sign or pedestrian crossings. We have the doors locked so I typically just pull away quickly when I hear them on the door handle. Some areas were very nice neighborhoods and they were just dumb kids that looked like they were on drugs, others were sketchy neighborhoods that couldn't have been avoided because of how the layout of the city was and where our destination was.
I also have been approached when I'm biking or on foot by aggressive homeless people in some of the parks that I will jog in or bike on the trail. A gun is just a tool, nothing more. You can't brandish it at someone to intimidate them or make them go away. But if it comes down to it, you have the tool to survive a situation. Luckily I've never had to draw on someone, and I hope I never have to. But if I'm put in that situation, I won't be the one that ends up in the obituaries and force my family to find another means of financial support. That's why I carry a firearm.
Land of the free? Armed to teeths? Hijacking in the middle of nowhere? That scares the hell out of me, really. What's the point in living in such an area? And sure, there are dangerous hotspot areas here too, but nothing this serious I guess.
Saw once some documentary comparing Detroit to a neighboring city on the other side of the border (London/CA?): High crime and tons of weapons in Detroit and so on and next to no weapons and left open doors in the other city.
Most, if not all, of the weapons in those crimes are obtained illegally and are used by people who are unfit to own weapons. Criminals will get guns, watch the first episode of Underworld, Inc. called "Ghost Guns". It talks about illegal manufacturing of firearms in the Phillipeans and shipped to gangs in the USA.
I really can't compare any sketchy places I've lived and visited to the likes of Detroit, Chicago, or pretty much the entire state of Mississippi. Those are far worse, what I've been through is uncomparable to even traveling through one of those places, let alone live there. In some areas like that, nobody owns furniture. Not cause it's expensive, but because you want to be below the window sill due to stray bullets, so everyone just sits on the floor. We moved here for school and work. I'd love to move somewhere safer and overall just nicer, but in my experience, every city has bad areas. That might not be true and some cities are super safe. I also don't want to live in a state where gun laws are tight as my family members are very big gun advocates and we train quite a bit every week. Losing that right would be like saying you can't enjoy your favorite hobby anymore because it's illegal. Couldn't do it. But there are 41 other states I could live in with my current permit.
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@BBigford said in Is Texas Next?:
@thwr said in Is Texas Next?:
@BBigford said in Is Texas Next?:
@MattSpeller said in Is Texas Next?:
@BBigford I share your enthusiasm for firearms even if I do not own nearly as many. What I don't understand is why anyone would carry one around. It.... just does not compute for me. We may need another thread for just that.
Aside from a few home invasion attempts in various cities, I've also had various people try to enter our vehicle when we come to a stop sign or pedestrian crossings. We have the doors locked so I typically just pull away quickly when I hear them on the door handle. Some areas were very nice neighborhoods and they were just dumb kids that looked like they were on drugs, others were sketchy neighborhoods that couldn't have been avoided because of how the layout of the city was and where our destination was.
I also have been approached when I'm biking or on foot by aggressive homeless people in some of the parks that I will jog in or bike on the trail. A gun is just a tool, nothing more. You can't brandish it at someone to intimidate them or make them go away. But if it comes down to it, you have the tool to survive a situation. Luckily I've never had to draw on someone, and I hope I never have to. But if I'm put in that situation, I won't be the one that ends up in the obituaries and force my family to find another means of financial support. That's why I carry a firearm.
Land of the free? Armed to teeths? Hijacking in the middle of nowhere? That scares the hell out of me, really. What's the point in living in such an area? And sure, there are dangerous hotspot areas here too, but nothing this serious I guess.
Saw once some documentary comparing Detroit to a neighboring city on the other side of the border (London/CA?): High crime and tons of weapons in Detroit and so on and next to no weapons and left open doors in the other city.
Most, if not all, of the weapons in those crimes are obtained illegally and are used by people who are unfit to own weapons. Criminals will get guns, watch the first episode of Underworld, Inc. called "Ghost Guns". It talks about illegal manufacturing of firearms in the Phillipeans and shipped to gangs in the USA.
I really can't compare any sketchy places I've lived and visited to the likes of Detroit, Chicago, or pretty much the entire state of Mississippi. Those are far worse, what I've been through is uncomparable to even traveling through one of those places, let alone live there. In some areas like that, nobody owns furniture. Not cause it's expensive, but because you want to be below the window sill due to stray bullets, so everyone just sits on the floor. We moved here for school and work. I'd love to move somewhere safer and overall just nicer, but in my experience, every city has bad areas. That might not be true and some cities are super safe. I also don't want to live in a state where gun laws are tight as my family members are very big gun advocates and we train quite a bit every week. Losing that right would be like saying you can't enjoy your favorite hobby anymore because it's illegal. Couldn't do it. But there are 41 other states I could live in with my current permit.
I do not have a problem with firearms in general, served in the German Navy. And I can understand that your ultimate and very valid goal is to protect your beloved ones.
BUT: If I were in your spot, I would gather my belongings in this very second and get my family out there as soon as possible. Would just move to some safe place where I don't need to carry a f*cking gun at all - you may still carry it around, but you would know the "DEFCON" level is rather low at the new place.
I just could not sleep well if I would have to think every second about the safety of my family. A whole bunch of weapons in a hostile area doesn't really increase safety at all. It may add to your safety in case of a dangerous situation, but they can also be a threat on their own if not locked away, like kids playing with them, for example. And I don't want to discuss any Barbie doll styled weapons made for kids at this point. That's simply obscene.A safe area is actually the single best method to protect your family, IMHO.
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@thwr said in Is Texas Next?:
A safe area is actually the single best method to protect your family, IMHO.
A key reason that we opt for Europe over Texas. Our family in Texas lives in the city ranked #7 safest in America (and it is pretty safe to be sure) and they still live in near abject fear that someone is going to break in to their home. I'm not sure why, I feel very safe there. But nowhere near as safe as I feel in Romania or pretty much any other European location. In what is possibly the safest town in Texas (of any rael size, it has over 7K people at least) we still need to watch out for insane traffic, know that guns are absolutely everywhere, that everyone locks their doors and cowers at night, that cars must be locked and kept in lit areas, etc. It's so nice going to Romania where locking the car doors or even the house doors seems pretty silly - where when travelling to places "more dangerous" like Bosnia we were warned by our priest that "if you don't lock your car and leave valuables on the seat in the Balkans, someone might take them."
Even in the safe areas of Texas, you are more worried about people coming through your windows to take your car at a stop light than apparently you are about leaving cash on the seat of an unlocked car in the Balkans!
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How's the advertising over there compared to over here, Scott? I think of of the things that drives the crime sprees here is that our advertising drives people to think they don't have enough, they aren't good enough where they are. That whole thing where companies are trying to squeeze every last cent out of the spending public.
Is that the case there?
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@Dashrender said in Is Texas Next?:
How's the advertising over there compared to over here, Scott? I think of of the things that drives the crime sprees here is that our advertising drives people to think they don't have enough, they aren't good enough where they are. That whole thing where companies are trying to squeeze every last cent out of the spending public.
Is that the case there?
What kind of people do you think are committing crimes? It's not middle class workers that want a new materialistic thing that they can't afford. It's people who got addicted to drugs and are feeding their demons with every item they can pawn for cash to score more drugs. Along with people who are homeless and can't even beg for enough money to pay for stuff. Push someone to the edge of desperation; have them question if they'll survive unless they harm you, and you'll see the animal inside of them.
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@BBigford said in Is Texas Next?:
@Dashrender said in Is Texas Next?:
How's the advertising over there compared to over here, Scott? I think of of the things that drives the crime sprees here is that our advertising drives people to think they don't have enough, they aren't good enough where they are. That whole thing where companies are trying to squeeze every last cent out of the spending public.
Is that the case there?
What kind of people do you think are committing crimes? It's not middle class workers that want a new materialistic thing that they can't afford. It's people who got addicted to drugs and are feeding their demons with every item they can pawn for cash to score more drugs. Along with people who are homeless and can't even beg for enough money to pay for stuff. Push someone to the edge of desperation; have them question if they'll survive unless they harm you, and you'll see the animal inside of them.
I've noticed you mentioning homeless people before. Is that really that big of a problem over at your place? Can't really imagine that, because we have a rather powerful social system. Everyone, virtually everyone, will get some place to sleep or even some small apartment, at least the most important things (very basic things like a toothbrush, soap, towels, something to eat, clothes, ...), healthcare (or help on getting away from drugs) and this way a real chance to get back into "normal" life.
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I guess the drug problem must be of epic proportions in Texas then. I haven't seen this issue while visiting Chicago, LA or San Francisco. Not saying they don't have the drugees, but I haven't been part of a carjacking or attempted car jacking while visiting these places, nor in my own city.
That's not say it does happen in all of them, I know it does. I've heard news stories of carjackings on a sorta highway thoroughfare we have here in Omaha.
So what makes drugs huge a larger problem there than here?
As for those breaking into people's houses, around here it's a toss up mostly between unemployed people and what I'll call bored teens. It's rarely drug heads (as reported by the news anyhow). So the break ins I put more on the pressures of supposed to be living the good live.
But the drug addicts looking to pay for their next score.. yeah, that's pretty scary.
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@Dashrender said in Is Texas Next?:
How's the advertising over there compared to over here, Scott? I think of of the things that drives the crime sprees here is that our advertising drives people to think they don't have enough, they aren't good enough where they are. That whole thing where companies are trying to squeeze every last cent out of the spending public.
Is that the case there?
Not at all. Consumer culture effectively does not exist. Not as we know it anyway. There is advertising, but nothing like in the US. And what there is doesn't seem to drive people to act in the same ways that it does here. The views that you have to keep buying stuff that you can't afford, even that you take out a mortgage for a house, aren't common. Nor is the idea that you compare yourself to others based on income.
