ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse
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@JaredBusch said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
@scottalanmiller said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
@JaredBusch said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
@scottalanmiller said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
If you are thinking that we spin up a VPS email server separate from the cloud application servers, then I would understand the idea of a stable IP. But if we do that, then we are just recreating the email service and totally supporting my original point - that this doesn't make sense.
No, you are not totally recreating the email service. You would be setting up a relay. Basically making a send only mail server that only accepts mail from your NodeBB instance to be forwarded.
How is that different, though? It's a separate system that just relays email. That's all MailGun is doing, right?
Assuming that ML is using the "free" tier of service, that means we are hitting 10k email in days. Tripling that to 30k emails would be $45/month at MailGun.
Compare that to a simple CentOS 7 instance on Vultr for $5/month.
Gee I dunno, it seems so horribly complicated to me. Such hard math. @Minion-Queen needs to decide if she is serious in this venture or not. If she is, then pay for a service and stop using BS excuses.
Right, the cost is different, but cost was never discussed as an issue only that the two approaches amounted to the same thing... that an email service either needs to be built or utilized. One might be cheaper but has a lot more soft cost as well, like time to maintain.
But in both cases, a service is needed or a pseudo-service that we build ourselves or else the cloud ideology makes local email effectively impossible.
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Now what would be a factor, that would make Vultr have an advantage here that you don't know about, is that we have access to spin up resources there with pre-existing billing and with MailGun we don't, because for some reason Rackspace's Mailgun billing isn't integrated properly, which is the only issue at this point. The service is great, it's only their billing integration that is a barrier because it requires more coordination internally. So Vultr would have an advantage there, but only because of that.
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@scottalanmiller said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
else the cloud ideology makes local email effectively impossible.
What does this mean?
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@scottalanmiller said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
Right, the cost is different, but cost was never discussed as an issue only that the two approaches amounted to the same thing... that an email service either needs to be built or utilized. One might be cheaper but has a lot more soft cost as well, like time to maintain.
But in both cases, a service is needed or a pseudo-service that we build ourselves or else the cloud ideology makes local email effectively impossible.
OK I see where you're going - but cost is what really matters here. Do you want to spend money paying someone else to maintain a service for you, or do you want to pay your staff to maintain a service for you. This should be a simple economics question, with a side of possible pass the buck.
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@Dashrender said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
@scottalanmiller said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
else the cloud ideology makes local email effectively impossible.
What does this mean?
Cloud thinking means that you are not on static IPs (as just one artifact of that ecosystem.) Growth and changes involve the creation and destruction of resources and, with only the rarest exception, IPs are not maintained in that ecosystem. Of course they would be maintained to some degree at the load balancers, but that has no effect when talking about outbound email services.
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@Dashrender said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
@scottalanmiller said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
Right, the cost is different, but cost was never discussed as an issue only that the two approaches amounted to the same thing... that an email service either needs to be built or utilized. One might be cheaper but has a lot more soft cost as well, like time to maintain.
But in both cases, a service is needed or a pseudo-service that we build ourselves or else the cloud ideology makes local email effectively impossible.
OK I see where you're going - but cost is what really matters here. Do you want to spend money paying someone else to maintain a service for you, or do you want to pay your staff to maintain a service for you. This should be a simple economics question, with a side of possible pass the buck.
No, cost is not the issue has hasn't been for a long time. Getting people off of their butts and coordinated to get it addressed is the issue
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@scottalanmiller said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
Now what would be a factor, that would make Vultr have an advantage here that you don't know about, is that we have access to spin up resources there with pre-existing billing and with MailGun we don't, because for some reason Rackspace's Mailgun billing isn't integrated properly, which is the only issue at this point. The service is great, it's only their billing integration that is a barrier because it requires more coordination internally. So Vultr would have an advantage there, but only because of that.
I don't understand - RS is behind because you have to get two bills from RS instead of one? Oh no.. what is the world coming to.
Just couldn't help it. -
@scottalanmiller said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
@Dashrender said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
@scottalanmiller said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
Right, the cost is different, but cost was never discussed as an issue only that the two approaches amounted to the same thing... that an email service either needs to be built or utilized. One might be cheaper but has a lot more soft cost as well, like time to maintain.
But in both cases, a service is needed or a pseudo-service that we build ourselves or else the cloud ideology makes local email effectively impossible.
OK I see where you're going - but cost is what really matters here. Do you want to spend money paying someone else to maintain a service for you, or do you want to pay your staff to maintain a service for you. This should be a simple economics question, with a side of possible pass the buck.
No, cost is not the issue has hasn't been for a long time. Getting people off of their butts and coordinated to get it addressed is the issue
With as many VMs as you create in a day - I don't understand how this is an issue.
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Both SSL and Email (outgoing) are very easy to do, even for me and my limited linux knowledge
Not sure why this needs to be such a struggle.....
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@aaronstuder said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
Both SSL and Email (outgoing) are very easy to do, even for me and my limited linux knowledge
Not sure why this needs to be such a struggle.....
it comes back to the black list problem. I'm guessing.
So say someone comes along, signs up for ML, and starts getting ML email notices... they mark those notices as spam with their email provider who then submits the information to a blacklist.
Now ML is on the blacklist.
But assuming you are using your own email domain for those messages, wouldn't the same problem happen with a cloud provider? So what? in the cloud provider case, it's the cloud provider who gets to spend the time it takes to get you removed from the spam blacklist instead of you?
OK with mailing lists, I can see how this could quickly become a full time gig depending on how many people are joining your site and then later marking you as spam.
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@Dashrender said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
@aaronstuder said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
Both SSL and Email (outgoing) are very easy to do, even for me and my limited linux knowledge
Not sure why this needs to be such a struggle.....
it comes back to the black list problem. I'm guessing.
So say someone comes along, signs up for ML, and starts getting ML email notices... they mark those notices as spam with their email provider who then submits the information to a blacklist.
Now ML is on the blacklist.
But assuming you are using your own email domain for those messages, wouldn't the same problem happen with a cloud provider? So what? in the cloud provider case, it's the cloud provider who gets to spend the time it takes to get you removed from the spam blacklist instead of you?
OK with mailing lists, I can see how this could quickly become a full time gig depending on how many people are joining your site and then later marking you as spam.
That is not how blacklists work. You are talking about spam not blacklists.
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@JaredBusch said in [ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse](/topic/8904/ml-s-email-blacklisting-bs-excuse
That is not how blacklists work. You are talking about spam not blacklists.
If not for spam or virus, then how does an email server get put on a blacklist?
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@Dashrender said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
@JaredBusch said in [ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse](/topic/8904/ml-s-email-blacklisting-bs-excuse
That is not how blacklists work. You are talking about spam not blacklists.
If not for spam or virus, then how does an email server get put on a blacklist?
It gets put on there for SPAM, but not because of user interaction. It is all automated with the use of honeypot addresses mostly.
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@JaredBusch said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
@Dashrender said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
@JaredBusch said in [ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse](/topic/8904/ml-s-email-blacklisting-bs-excuse
That is not how blacklists work. You are talking about spam not blacklists.
If not for spam or virus, then how does an email server get put on a blacklist?
It gets put on there for SPAM, but not because of user interaction. It is all automated with the use of honeypot addresses mostly.
Or sometimes direct reports. Lots of those services used to allow people to submit an IP address to say that they want them blacklisted.
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@scottalanmiller said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
@JaredBusch said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
@Dashrender said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
@JaredBusch said in [ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse](/topic/8904/ml-s-email-blacklisting-bs-excuse
That is not how blacklists work. You are talking about spam not blacklists.
If not for spam or virus, then how does an email server get put on a blacklist?
It gets put on there for SPAM, but not because of user interaction. It is all automated with the use of honeypot addresses mostly.
Or sometimes direct reports. Lots of those services used to allow people to submit an IP address to say that they want them blacklisted.
Exactly. If it was only honey pots that ML had to worry about, the wouldn't have to worry because they would never send to an address someone didn't sign up to use. ML could take it a step further to ensure someone is trying to fake send them to said honey pots, but requiring verification of ownership of email address before messages would be sent there.
I don't think my users would send messages to a honey pot either, yet I've be on blacklists twice in the past 10 years (the last time was like 6 + years ago). So short of someone direct reporting me.. I'm not sure how I would be added to a blacklist.
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@Dashrender said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
@scottalanmiller said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
@JaredBusch said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
@Dashrender said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
@JaredBusch said in [ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse](/topic/8904/ml-s-email-blacklisting-bs-excuse
That is not how blacklists work. You are talking about spam not blacklists.
If not for spam or virus, then how does an email server get put on a blacklist?
It gets put on there for SPAM, but not because of user interaction. It is all automated with the use of honeypot addresses mostly.
Or sometimes direct reports. Lots of those services used to allow people to submit an IP address to say that they want them blacklisted.
Exactly. If it was only honey pots that ML had to worry about, the wouldn't have to worry because they would never send to an address someone didn't sign up to use. ML could take it a step further to ensure someone is trying to fake send them to said honey pots, but requiring verification of ownership of email address before messages would be sent there.
I don't think my users would send messages to a honey pot either, yet I've be on blacklists twice in the past 10 years (the last time was like 6 + years ago). So short of someone direct reporting me.. I'm not sure how I would be added to a blacklist.
But the issue is that ML might be on an IP that has already been picked up by a honey pot before ML got to use it.
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@scottalanmiller said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
@JaredBusch said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
@Dashrender said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
@JaredBusch said in [ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse](/topic/8904/ml-s-email-blacklisting-bs-excuse
That is not how blacklists work. You are talking about spam not blacklists.
If not for spam or virus, then how does an email server get put on a blacklist?
It gets put on there for SPAM, but not because of user interaction. It is all automated with the use of honeypot addresses mostly.
Or sometimes direct reports. Lots of those services used to allow people to submit an IP address to say that they want them blacklisted.
The last time I looked, no service would simply block an IP based on user input. But they would add user input to their other checks. SpamCop, specifically has a mechanism allowing users to manually report mail.
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@scottalanmiller said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
@Dashrender said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
@scottalanmiller said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
@JaredBusch said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
@Dashrender said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
@JaredBusch said in [ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse](/topic/8904/ml-s-email-blacklisting-bs-excuse
That is not how blacklists work. You are talking about spam not blacklists.
If not for spam or virus, then how does an email server get put on a blacklist?
It gets put on there for SPAM, but not because of user interaction. It is all automated with the use of honeypot addresses mostly.
Or sometimes direct reports. Lots of those services used to allow people to submit an IP address to say that they want them blacklisted.
Exactly. If it was only honey pots that ML had to worry about, the wouldn't have to worry because they would never send to an address someone didn't sign up to use. ML could take it a step further to ensure someone is trying to fake send them to said honey pots, but requiring verification of ownership of email address before messages would be sent there.
I don't think my users would send messages to a honey pot either, yet I've be on blacklists twice in the past 10 years (the last time was like 6 + years ago). So short of someone direct reporting me.. I'm not sure how I would be added to a blacklist.
But the issue is that ML might be on an IP that has already been picked up by a honey pot before ML got to use it.
So go check. It's not that hard to check beforehand. And as JB said, I've never had it take more than 2 days before I was removed. And it rarely happens anymore.
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@Dashrender said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
@scottalanmiller said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
@Dashrender said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
@scottalanmiller said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
@JaredBusch said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
@Dashrender said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
@JaredBusch said in [ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse](/topic/8904/ml-s-email-blacklisting-bs-excuse
That is not how blacklists work. You are talking about spam not blacklists.
If not for spam or virus, then how does an email server get put on a blacklist?
It gets put on there for SPAM, but not because of user interaction. It is all automated with the use of honeypot addresses mostly.
Or sometimes direct reports. Lots of those services used to allow people to submit an IP address to say that they want them blacklisted.
Exactly. If it was only honey pots that ML had to worry about, the wouldn't have to worry because they would never send to an address someone didn't sign up to use. ML could take it a step further to ensure someone is trying to fake send them to said honey pots, but requiring verification of ownership of email address before messages would be sent there.
I don't think my users would send messages to a honey pot either, yet I've be on blacklists twice in the past 10 years (the last time was like 6 + years ago). So short of someone direct reporting me.. I'm not sure how I would be added to a blacklist.
But the issue is that ML might be on an IP that has already been picked up by a honey pot before ML got to use it.
So go check. It's not that hard to check beforehand. And as JB said, I've never had it take more than 2 days before I was removed. And it rarely happens anymore.
And I've had "unremoveable." But how do you check beforehand? How would that work since you would not have the IP beforehand?
