ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse
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Re: Dell PERC Question (Server Down)
@scottalanmiller said in Dell PERC Question (Server Down):
@JaredBusch said in Dell PERC Question (Server Down):
@Dashrender said in Dell PERC Question (Server Down):
Email notices run out after about 5 days or less. I think ML is working on it, but it's a cost issue.
Not exactly. It is a choice to use a service with limits over sending directly and updating records.
We tried sending directly and were blacklisted. We could try to get that to work but have tried this in the past and not had luck. We couldn't get even test messages to go out locally. If we switched to local, email would just stop for nearly everyone, all the time, completely.
Going to call bullshit on this.
Anyone who claims to have used onsite email let alone hosted email in the past should know how to handle blacklisting. It is all very straightforward and can be checked without switching to local as you say.
- You get the IP of the server that will be sending
- You plug said IP into MXToolbox.
- You go through and request delisting for any RBL that has you listed.
- You update your SPF to allow email from this IP for your domain.
- You wait a few days for the RBL's to fall off.
- You then deal with the troublemakers such as MXLogic by finding a current customer to request you be delisted.
- You switch your system to use the local server
That is all there is to it for almost all cases of email blacklisting.
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This all assumes you own the IP, i.e. not a shared IP.
Otherwise I agree.
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@Dashrender said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
This all assumes you own the IP, i.e. not a shared IP.
Otherwise I agree.
I give you that.
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@JaredBusch said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
Going to call bullshit on this.
- You get the IP of the server that will be sending
- You plug said IP into MXToolbox.
- You go through and request delisting for any RBL that has you listed.
Have done this in the past and proven that this is not reliable. Going to call BS on calling BS here. Sure, this MIGHT work. MIGHT work is not a reliable process for email.
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@Dashrender said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
This all assumes you own the IP, i.e. not a shared IP.
Which is the case here, having a stable IP is something you don't really have in the cloud world. We can do things to mimic it, but it gets more and more complicated and unreliable.
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@scottalanmiller said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
@Dashrender said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
This all assumes you own the IP, i.e. not a shared IP.
Which is the case here, having a stable IP is something you don't really have in the cloud world. We can do things to mimic it, but it gets more and more complicated and unreliable.
Really? I'm about to stand up a PBX at a VPS and you're telling me that I'm not going to get my own IP address? We know this isn't true, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.
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@Dashrender said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
@scottalanmiller said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
@Dashrender said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
This all assumes you own the IP, i.e. not a shared IP.
Which is the case here, having a stable IP is something you don't really have in the cloud world. We can do things to mimic it, but it gets more and more complicated and unreliable.
Really? I'm about to stand up a PBX at a VPS and you're telling me that I'm not going to get my own IP address? We know this isn't true, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.
You are looking at VPS, not cloud, right? Very different approaches.
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If you are thinking that we spin up a VPS email server separate from the cloud application servers, then I would understand the idea of a stable IP. But if we do that, then we are just recreating the email service and totally supporting my original point - that this doesn't make sense.
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@scottalanmiller said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
If you are thinking that we spin up a VPS email server separate from the cloud application servers, then I would understand the idea of a stable IP. But if we do that, then we are just recreating the email service and totally supporting my original point - that this doesn't make sense.
I guess I don't understand the problem then - you're trying to use a cloud provider to provide email? Does that work for anyone?
Here's a question - can I no longer use SPF records once I move to O365?
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@Dashrender said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
I guess I don't understand the problem then - you're trying to use a cloud provider to provide email? Does that work for anyone?
We are using an email service, if that is what you are asking.
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@Dashrender said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
Here's a question - can I no longer use SPF records once I move to O365?
You are supposed to still use them. We have to set them for O365. SPF doesn't matter here, it doesn't remove blacklisting.
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@scottalanmiller said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
@Dashrender said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
Here's a question - can I no longer use SPF records once I move to O365?
You are supposed to still use them. We have to set them for O365. SPF doesn't matter here, it doesn't remove blacklisting.
SPF is for pseudo authenticating the source of the email. Not having any SPF record does not generally hurt, but having a good SPF record will help prevent others from marking your email as SPAM or junk.
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@scottalanmiller said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
If you are thinking that we spin up a VPS email server separate from the cloud application servers, then I would understand the idea of a stable IP. But if we do that, then we are just recreating the email service and totally supporting my original point - that this doesn't make sense.
No, you are not totally recreating the email service. You would be setting up a relay. Basically making a send only mail server that only accepts mail from your NodeBB instance to be forwarded.
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@JaredBusch said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
@scottalanmiller said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
If you are thinking that we spin up a VPS email server separate from the cloud application servers, then I would understand the idea of a stable IP. But if we do that, then we are just recreating the email service and totally supporting my original point - that this doesn't make sense.
No, you are not totally recreating the email service. You would be setting up a relay. Basically making a send only mail server that only accepts mail from your NodeBB instance to be forwarded.
How is that different, though? It's a separate system that just relays email. That's all MailGun is doing, right?
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@JaredBusch said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
@scottalanmiller said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
@Dashrender said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
Here's a question - can I no longer use SPF records once I move to O365?
You are supposed to still use them. We have to set them for O365. SPF doesn't matter here, it doesn't remove blacklisting.
SPF is for pseudo authenticating the source of the email. Not having any SPF record does not generally hurt, but having a good SPF record will help prevent others from marking your email as SPAM or junk.
Yup, it's a great idea, but no panacea.
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@scottalanmiller said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
@JaredBusch said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
@scottalanmiller said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
If you are thinking that we spin up a VPS email server separate from the cloud application servers, then I would understand the idea of a stable IP. But if we do that, then we are just recreating the email service and totally supporting my original point - that this doesn't make sense.
No, you are not totally recreating the email service. You would be setting up a relay. Basically making a send only mail server that only accepts mail from your NodeBB instance to be forwarded.
How is that different, though? It's a separate system that just relays email. That's all MailGun is doing, right?
Assuming that ML is using the "free" tier of service, that means we are hitting 10k email in days. Tripling that to 30k emails would be $45/month at MailGun.
Compare that to a simple CentOS 7 instance on Vultr for $5/month.
Gee I dunno, it seems so horribly complicated to me. Such hard math. @Minion-Queen needs to decide if she is serious in this venture or not. If she is, then pay for a service and stop using BS excuses.
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@JaredBusch said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
@scottalanmiller said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
@JaredBusch said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
@scottalanmiller said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
If you are thinking that we spin up a VPS email server separate from the cloud application servers, then I would understand the idea of a stable IP. But if we do that, then we are just recreating the email service and totally supporting my original point - that this doesn't make sense.
No, you are not totally recreating the email service. You would be setting up a relay. Basically making a send only mail server that only accepts mail from your NodeBB instance to be forwarded.
How is that different, though? It's a separate system that just relays email. That's all MailGun is doing, right?
Assuming that ML is using the "free" tier of service, that means we are hitting 10k email in days. Tripling that to 30k emails would be $45/month at MailGun.
Compare that to a simple CentOS 7 instance on Vultr for $5/month.
Gee I dunno, it seems so horribly complicated to me. Such hard math. @Minion-Queen needs to decide if she is serious in this venture or not. If she is, then pay for a service and stop using BS excuses.
Right, the cost is different, but cost was never discussed as an issue only that the two approaches amounted to the same thing... that an email service either needs to be built or utilized. One might be cheaper but has a lot more soft cost as well, like time to maintain.
But in both cases, a service is needed or a pseudo-service that we build ourselves or else the cloud ideology makes local email effectively impossible.
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Now what would be a factor, that would make Vultr have an advantage here that you don't know about, is that we have access to spin up resources there with pre-existing billing and with MailGun we don't, because for some reason Rackspace's Mailgun billing isn't integrated properly, which is the only issue at this point. The service is great, it's only their billing integration that is a barrier because it requires more coordination internally. So Vultr would have an advantage there, but only because of that.
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@scottalanmiller said in ML's Email Blacklisting BS Excuse:
else the cloud ideology makes local email effectively impossible.
What does this mean?
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