Common Core haters
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@Dashrender said:
@coliver said:
@Dashrender said:
@coliver said:
@travisdh1 said:
@coliver said:
Even in high school I was of the mind that for a fraction of the cost of just one sport a school could provide free lunches to the entire student body.
Although I am also a fan of getting away from school boards and push the district governance up the ladder to the state level.
I'm also in favor of getting rid of school boards. I'd want it pushed down to either parents or very small localized schools tho.
Why? Aren't parents and tax payers the ones who already vote in the school board? Going to a mass vote would amount to the same thing.
See I don't agree with this - i think if you had to have a large vote each time.. people would be involved.. there would be less crappy things happening..
but maybe it would slow things down to much.People don't pay attention though. I doubt they would be more involved and just follow the crowd. Suddenly you would have the local newspaper owner (do they exist?) or Joe Businessowner who has some moderate pull in the community commanding a large number of people who will vote how they are told to.
and that's different from now how?
national scale is far more rational than the state scale. Just look at states like NC, MS and TX. They do very rash things that rarely happen at the national scale. There is a stabilizing force having lots of different regions and groups represented. A local community easily and commonly skews way, way out of control.
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Note: My opinion is based entirely on my own experience and what I have seen in the US.
- In my county we had 10 year old books but brand new sports equipment. This should never happen. Fully in support of private funding simply as a means of exercise for kids. Education should always be the most important thing.
- In the US a teachers wage is near the average salary for our country. It is not a respected position anymore and we don't have the most intelligent people in our country teaching.
- I agree that education should start at home but what about the people that have to work multiple jobs to feed their kids even having masters degrees? My fiance has a masters degree in human development and taught as a professor at Penn State at the age of 24. She made slightly above 30k to do that job. In order to be in education (and I mean a serious professional) it takes so much dedication and work. Most people either become teachers so they only have to work for 3 years to get tenure and a pension or to make a difference (a small percentage from what I've seen in my life). We also have people in administration double dipping. They retire from one school and get a similar job working at another school collecting a salary and their pension from their last job. This is preventing the younger generation from taking that job and completely halts our professional progress.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@travisdh1 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@travisdh1 said:
@JaredBusch Just out of curiosity, have you every actually looked at the budgets for your local schools? It was eye opening for me. Something just isn't right if you can't give a good education for 1/3 of what our local schools are funded at.
It's not the budget, it is what is paid to the teaching staff that is the issue.
We pay teachers? Could've fooled me from the budgets I looked at, grr!
Remember, no one is truly mandating the public school to provide education. They are a combination of babysitting and social control.
If you complain about your pay, the option is to find some other work.. You don't want to? well that just shows your stupidity.
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@Jason said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@travisdh1 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@travisdh1 said:
@JaredBusch Just out of curiosity, have you every actually looked at the budgets for your local schools? It was eye opening for me. Something just isn't right if you can't give a good education for 1/3 of what our local schools are funded at.
It's not the budget, it is what is paid to the teaching staff that is the issue.
We pay teachers? Could've fooled me from the budgets I looked at, grr!
Remember, no one is truly mandating the public school to provide education. They are a combination of babysitting and social control.
If you complain about your pay, the option is to find some other work.. You don't want to? well that just shows your stupidity.
You think people that dedicate 5-6 years of their time getting a masters degree, getting paid scraps should just find other work? That is a ton of dedication to try to further the education in our country. A goal I hope everyone in our field would support considering we are in a 100% intellectual field.
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@Jason said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@travisdh1 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@travisdh1 said:
@JaredBusch Just out of curiosity, have you every actually looked at the budgets for your local schools? It was eye opening for me. Something just isn't right if you can't give a good education for 1/3 of what our local schools are funded at.
It's not the budget, it is what is paid to the teaching staff that is the issue.
We pay teachers? Could've fooled me from the budgets I looked at, grr!
Remember, no one is truly mandating the public school to provide education. They are a combination of babysitting and social control.
If you complain about your pay, the option is to find some other work.. You don't want to? well that just shows your stupidity.
The third option is to fight for a better wage. Which is what a lot of teachers are doing.
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@Jason said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@travisdh1 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@travisdh1 said:
@JaredBusch Just out of curiosity, have you every actually looked at the budgets for your local schools? It was eye opening for me. Something just isn't right if you can't give a good education for 1/3 of what our local schools are funded at.
It's not the budget, it is what is paid to the teaching staff that is the issue.
We pay teachers? Could've fooled me from the budgets I looked at, grr!
Remember, no one is truly mandating the public school to provide education. They are a combination of babysitting and social control.
If you complain about your pay, the option is to find some other work.. You don't want to? well that just shows your stupidity.
It's not the teachers complaining (in this case) it is the parents (us) who would like schools to try to hire educators not babysitters.
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@wirestyle22 said:
@Jason said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@travisdh1 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@travisdh1 said:
@JaredBusch Just out of curiosity, have you every actually looked at the budgets for your local schools? It was eye opening for me. Something just isn't right if you can't give a good education for 1/3 of what our local schools are funded at.
It's not the budget, it is what is paid to the teaching staff that is the issue.
We pay teachers? Could've fooled me from the budgets I looked at, grr!
Remember, no one is truly mandating the public school to provide education. They are a combination of babysitting and social control.
If you complain about your pay, the option is to find some other work.. You don't want to? well that just shows your stupidity.
You think people that dedicate 5-6 years of their time getting a masters degree, getting paid scraps should just find other work? That is a ton of dedication to try to further the education in our country. A goal I hope everyone in our field would support considering we are in a 100% intellectual field.
Their are lots of fields where you get masters degrees and don't get paid the most.. anyway most teachers I know just like to complain the average teacher around here is making above avg salary. Avg teacher is $60k plus. Avg person makes $30k with a degree here.
Also teachers are usually underqualified to teach anyway.
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@wirestyle22 said:
You think people that dedicate 5-6 years of their time getting a masters degree, getting paid scraps should just find other work?
No, but they shouldn't complain either as the wages and the work needed were known before they went down that path. If they want to teach at the available wages they should be happy with the situation.
You don't hear lawyers complaining about how they "shouldn't have to learn all that legal stuff", right? Because they knew that going into that field meant learning all that stuff.
Teachers are the same way, if they feel that they should complain, they should find other work. That they got a master's degree and put in all that time was their decision and there is nothing wrong with that. But there is something wrong with doing it and being upset with what the field looks like on the other side.
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@Jason said:
Also teachers are usually underqualified to teach anyway.
No argument here... but that may be because they are paid scraps.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@wirestyle22 said:
You think people that dedicate 5-6 years of their time getting a masters degree, getting paid scraps should just find other work?
No, but they shouldn't complain either as the wages and the work needed were known before they went down that path. If they want to teach at the available wages they should be happy with the situation.
You don't hear lawyers complaining about how they "shouldn't have to learn all that legal stuff", right? Because they knew that going into that field meant learning all that stuff.
Teachers are the same way, if they feel that they should complain, they should find other work. That they got a master's degree and put in all that time was their decision and there is nothing wrong with that. But there is something wrong with doing it and being upset with what the field looks like on the other side.
We should be motivating the intelligent in our country to pursue educating the youth, not paying them scraps and trying to convince them that it's a noble pursuit. If we stick with things the way they are we will always have shitty teachers. I had 2 good teachers in the history of my education and I'm counting college. I'm not saying they should be paid 120k a year but they need to be paid more. Sports can suffer as long as education is benefitting imo.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@wirestyle22 said:
You think people that dedicate 5-6 years of their time getting a masters degree, getting paid scraps should just find other work?
No, but they shouldn't complain either as the wages and the work needed were known before they went down that path. If they want to teach at the available wages they should be happy with the situation.
You don't hear lawyers complaining about how they "shouldn't have to learn all that legal stuff", right? Because they knew that going into that field meant learning all that stuff.
Teachers are the same way, if they feel that they should complain, they should find other work. That they got a master's degree and put in all that time was their decision and there is nothing wrong with that. But there is something wrong with doing it and being upset with what the field looks like on the other side.
What about People Doing Psychology degrees. Masters still. Some of the lowest paying jobs out there.. less than teachers even. They should have researched before they got into the field. Otherwise stop complaining.
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@wirestyle22 said:
That is a ton of dedication to try to further the education in our country.
the problem is, most people do that and it is "just taking the easy way out." An education degree is a super easy one (as a general thing.) Other fields can get a degree and tack on "education" as an afterthought. Classes for teachers are different than they are for most other fields.
I had several roommates who were teaches years ago. They were struggling with their master's homework. Some of us IT folks looked at it and were confused because it was material that we non-college students already knew because it was common elementary material (for English.) It took a long time to figure out that what they were struggling with at a top north east teaching school in the grad program wasn't "how to teach" elementary English, they were actually struggling with elementary English themselves!! What a top university expected them to learn in grad school, any other program would have expected them to know coming out of high school (or middle school or lower.)
Getting a Master in Education is often a very easy way to go. It doesn't mean that people are not educated or aren't caring, but the average teacher goes to college to party and takes the easy route in life. It's the one job that they've witnessed as a kid, requires no expanding of their horizons, is the easiest college programs to get into, is a party college experience, requires none of the rigour of more academic programs, and lets them avoid the work world for a year longer than most programs. It's the path of least resistance to a lot of people.
So using those factors alone (instead of individual skill, dedication, effort, etc.) as reasons why teachers should make any given wage doesn't make sense.
It's great that your teacher is doing it to teach kids. So were my roommates, they love teaching middle school English and are really passionate about it. But by and large, the average teacher is just looking for a union job with the least effort to get into that they can.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@wirestyle22 said:
That is a ton of dedication to try to further the education in our country.
the problem is, most people do that and it is "just taking the easy way out." An education degree is a super easy one (as a general thing.) Other fields can get a degree and tack on "education" as an afterthought. Classes for teachers are different than they are for most other fields.
I had several roommates who were teaches years ago. They were struggling with their master's homework. Some of us IT folks looked at it and were confused because it was material that we non-college students already knew because it was common elementary material (for English.) It took a long time to figure out that what they were struggling with at a top north east teaching school in the grad program wasn't "how to teach" elementary English, they were actually struggling with elementary English themselves!! What a top university expected them to learn in grad school, any other program would have expected them to know coming out of high school (or middle school or lower.)
Getting a Master in Education is often a very easy way to go. It doesn't mean that people are not educated or aren't caring, but the average teacher goes to college to party and takes the easy route in life. It's the one job that they've witnessed as a kid, requires no expanding of their horizons, is the easiest college programs to get into, is a party college experience, requires none of the rigour of more academic programs, and lets them avoid the work world for a year longer than most programs. It's the path of least resistance to a lot of people.
So using those factors alone (instead of individual skill, dedication, effort, etc.) as reasons why teachers should make any given wage doesn't make sense.
It's great that your teacher is doing it to teach kids. So were my roommates, they love teaching middle school English and are really passionate about it. But by and large, the average teacher is just looking for a union job with the least effort to get into that they can.
We solve that problem by making the jobs competitive. If we pay the bottom of the barrel we're going to get the bottom of the barrel.
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@wirestyle22 said:
A goal I hope everyone in our field would support considering we are in a 100% intellectual field.
I'm not always sure that universal education is a good goal. Universal ACCESS to education I'm behind 100%, I think that all education should be free and universally available for everyone all the way through PhD. But should everyone go to school past a very fundamental level? I think not. It's a total waste and is just used as a way to keep kids out of the working economy and to employ lots of unnecessary adults.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@coliver said:
@Jason said:
Also teachers are usually underqualified to teach anyway.
No argument here... but that may be because they are paid scraps.
One supports the other. We don't want highly skilled teachers, so we don't pay for them, so we don't get them.
We do want highly skilled teachers we just apparently don't want to pay for them.
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@Jason said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@wirestyle22 said:
You think people that dedicate 5-6 years of their time getting a masters degree, getting paid scraps should just find other work?
No, but they shouldn't complain either as the wages and the work needed were known before they went down that path. If they want to teach at the available wages they should be happy with the situation.
You don't hear lawyers complaining about how they "shouldn't have to learn all that legal stuff", right? Because they knew that going into that field meant learning all that stuff.
Teachers are the same way, if they feel that they should complain, they should find other work. That they got a master's degree and put in all that time was their decision and there is nothing wrong with that. But there is something wrong with doing it and being upset with what the field looks like on the other side.
What about People Doing Psychology degrees. Masters still. Some of the lowest paying jobs out there.. less than teachers even. They should have researched before they got into the field. Otherwise stop complaining.
And honestly, if a psychologist didn't research before getting their degree, would you want them working in that field?
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@dafyre said:
@scottalanmiller said:
The issue with the Common Core is not the Common Core itself. That's actually just a standard of what kids should know at different levels. It's actually not half bad. A bit slack, but anything in public education is.
People associate sometimes whacky and nonsensical teaching methods and standardized testing with Common Core. Those are actually the things that people hate or are having issues with.
That and things like number lines... I've seen a few examples and those simply don't make sense to me at all... and I took Math all the way up to Calculus and we never touched on that -- not in the long-winded roundabout way that I've seen examples work.
I was taught number lines. There is nothing convoluted about them. It is all math. Math is always 100% logical.
My daughters are taught number lines in their Japanese courses that have nothing to do with the US education system.
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@wirestyle22 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@coliver said:
@Jason said:
Also teachers are usually underqualified to teach anyway.
No argument here... but that may be because they are paid scraps.
One supports the other. We don't want highly skilled teachers, so we don't pay for them, so we don't get them.
We do want highly skilled teachers we just apparently don't want to pay for them.
Do we? I think all evidence points to something in the middle. We want people that are qualified to teach but we as a society (in the US) are unwilling to pay them.
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@wirestyle22 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@wirestyle22 said:
That is a ton of dedication to try to further the education in our country.
the problem is, most people do that and it is "just taking the easy way out." An education degree is a super easy one (as a general thing.) Other fields can get a degree and tack on "education" as an afterthought. Classes for teachers are different than they are for most other fields.
I had several roommates who were teaches years ago. They were struggling with their master's homework. Some of us IT folks looked at it and were confused because it was material that we non-college students already knew because it was common elementary material (for English.) It took a long time to figure out that what they were struggling with at a top north east teaching school in the grad program wasn't "how to teach" elementary English, they were actually struggling with elementary English themselves!! What a top university expected them to learn in grad school, any other program would have expected them to know coming out of high school (or middle school or lower.)
Getting a Master in Education is often a very easy way to go. It doesn't mean that people are not educated or aren't caring, but the average teacher goes to college to party and takes the easy route in life. It's the one job that they've witnessed as a kid, requires no expanding of their horizons, is the easiest college programs to get into, is a party college experience, requires none of the rigour of more academic programs, and lets them avoid the work world for a year longer than most programs. It's the path of least resistance to a lot of people.
So using those factors alone (instead of individual skill, dedication, effort, etc.) as reasons why teachers should make any given wage doesn't make sense.
It's great that your teacher is doing it to teach kids. So were my roommates, they love teaching middle school English and are really passionate about it. But by and large, the average teacher is just looking for a union job with the least effort to get into that they can.
We solve that problem by making the jobs competitive. If we pay the bottom of the barrel we're going to get the bottom of the barrel.
It's, unfortunately, a catch 22. We don't have teachers worth even what they make today. Do we pay the existing unqualified teachers more? Will that encourage the field to improve? We'd have to pay a LOT more.
If the jobs are based on results, maybe we can make it work. But what do we do with all of the teachers that we make useless?
