Fundamental Difference in the Mindset for Updates of Linux vs. Windows Admins
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@Dashrender said:
It's hard to say without putting pen to paper to know which would be cheaper (Linux with either custom app or RDS/VDI solution, or run Windows on the desktop).
Sometimes the numbers are close, sometimes they are wildly all over the place. There is both the cost today and the cost tomorrow. Once you start breaking with the investment in technical debt you will generally have a long term improvement in cost even if you don't get it up front. Because when time does come to replace any given piece with something new, you will have broken the "well since we are already stuck on Windows, we don't care that we are stuck with it for another reason" problem that plagues so many companies.
One of the things that kept and keeps NTG nimble is that I tend to put my foot down about any technology that would mean investing in a lack of agility. Even if something seems ideal for us, if it requires us to suddenly be locked into things we don't want to be locked into that's a huge negative and requires a lot of value to overcome. Over the years we've had lock in issues, but we have organizationally fought it and by and large are platform agnostic and free to implement what makes the most sense for us at all times.
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@johnhooks said:
Ya if you're a 5 person shop it probably won't save much. But if you've got 200-500 desktops that's enough to have a decent custom solution.
Although changing two people generally costs very little, too.
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I was getting ready to write a couple of posts before I read to the end of the thread... I am glad I waited, lol.
WINE has gotten to the point now where, I think it is becoming quite a viable alternative to running Windows Apps in Linux. I find that some Games actually play better under Linux than under Windows. (And to be fair, there are others that simply don't work at all).
I know some versions of Office, as well as Adobe products have been made to work under Linux/Wine as well.
It might be worth fiddling with a little bit, and testing out to see how feasible such a switch might actually be. Especially if you are having to support old applications on newer computers.
Also, PlayOnLinux works with all apps, not just games... and it makes some of the initial setup and testing with WINE a bit less of a pain.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@johnhooks said:
Ya if you're a 5 person shop it probably won't save much. But if you've got 200-500 desktops that's enough to have a decent custom solution.
Although changing two people generally costs very little, too.
Ya, a 5 person shop probably won't need custom software. That's the only reason why I said that.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
An example. I have a client that is a distributor for HVAC systems. They have a quoting tool that only works on Windows. This tool has all of the information needed to make quotes for the things they sell. To the best of the clients knowledge, there is no other tool like it. So if they wanted to move to Linux, they would either have to use RDS or VDI to provide access to that tool, or they would have to have a custom application written for them.
I hear this a lot. But no company that I've ever worked with has had this as an actual limitation. I'm not saying that it is never true, but the feeling that I have is that it is fractionally as true as often as people claim it. I feel like this is one of those "it's socially acceptable to make this excuse" situations where we often just give companies a pass if they state this and never press them further even though it goes against the common sense of business that there would be an amazing gap in the marketplace with a fortune and no one has filled it or is trying to fill it.
Do you know specifically what product this is?
Also, Wine may solve this, you never know.
I didn't say anything but I have a hard time believing that there isn't a web based HVAC quoting system that could do this.
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@johnhooks said:
Ya, a 5 person shop probably won't need custom software. That's the only reason why I said that.
Hmmm... I wonder if statistically that is true. I've worked with one person shops (I kid you not) that needed that "special one off software" before. I actually think it is the smaller ones that have the problem more rather than the other way around because if you are big enough you simply don't put up with it - you shop around or make your own.
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Maybe we are different but we are usually updating as fast as possible. We even had a group of people outside of IT on windows 10 before it was released.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@johnhooks said:
Ya, a 5 person shop probably won't need custom software. That's the only reason why I said that.
Hmmm... I wonder if statistically that is true. I've worked with one person shops (I kid you not) that needed that "special one off software" before. I actually think it is the smaller ones that have the problem more rather than the other way around because if you are big enough you simply don't put up with it - you shop around or make your own.
It probably depends on the business too. Obviously tech start ups write their own stuff. But small generic shops can get away with things like Wave or other free accounting solutions, things like that.
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@Jason said:
Maybe we are different but we are usually updating as fast as possible. We even had a group of people outside of IT on windows 10 before it was released.
Enterprises tend to be more like that. Although I've seen enterprises lingering for a decade on something old too (like Vista.)
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And then people say things like this:
With Microsoft I feel more confident that they are going to take security more seriously because they have a vested interest in making their product secure. Yes I know there are plenty of examples where their security was lacking, but when something breaks or a hole is found it's in their best interest to fix it. And if I have a problem with something I have someone to call.
That's from a post on SW called "Why use Linux in 2016?"
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@Dashrender said:
@johnhooks said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
The without an investment is not true. There is user training, finding comparable apps and deploying OS and said apps. Those things aren't free.
True, they are relatively free, however. Keeping Windows up to date has the same costs over time. This is a common myth that people point to to keep people from moving off of Windows. But if you watch the real world, Linux can, in some cases, actually lower the cost there. It's not uncommon for the pain of moving to Linux to be lower than the pain of updating Windows. And no matter how much someone avoids updating Windows, it has to happen at some point. And all that "cost" of the Linux move bites you regardless.
And, in fact, the more that rolling updates are avoided on windows, the more costly and painful that becomes as the changes are not small, they are disruptive.
I would like to bet that the savings in licensing and maintenance will allow places to purchase real cross platform software solutions.
Maybe - but what seems more likely is the need to have one written. Not just finding an off the shelf product already ready to go.
An example. I have a client that is a distributor for HVAC systems. They have a quoting tool that only works on Windows. This tool has all of the information needed to make quotes for the things they sell. To the best of the clients knowledge, there is no other tool like it. So if they wanted to move to Linux, they would either have to use RDS or VDI to provide access to that tool, or they would have to have a custom application written for them.
Most of our vertical applications are written in house (which has allowed us to update quicker than many others as we don't rely on vendors to keep them updated) but, from what I've been told from developers it's pretty easy to change the code to get it to work natievely in linux.
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@Jason said:
@Dashrender said:
@johnhooks said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
The without an investment is not true. There is user training, finding comparable apps and deploying OS and said apps. Those things aren't free.
True, they are relatively free, however. Keeping Windows up to date has the same costs over time. This is a common myth that people point to to keep people from moving off of Windows. But if you watch the real world, Linux can, in some cases, actually lower the cost there. It's not uncommon for the pain of moving to Linux to be lower than the pain of updating Windows. And no matter how much someone avoids updating Windows, it has to happen at some point. And all that "cost" of the Linux move bites you regardless.
And, in fact, the more that rolling updates are avoided on windows, the more costly and painful that becomes as the changes are not small, they are disruptive.
I would like to bet that the savings in licensing and maintenance will allow places to purchase real cross platform software solutions.
Maybe - but what seems more likely is the need to have one written. Not just finding an off the shelf product already ready to go.
An example. I have a client that is a distributor for HVAC systems. They have a quoting tool that only works on Windows. This tool has all of the information needed to make quotes for the things they sell. To the best of the clients knowledge, there is no other tool like it. So if they wanted to move to Linux, they would either have to use RDS or VDI to provide access to that tool, or they would have to have a custom application written for them.
Most of our vertical applications are written in house (which has allowed us to update quicker than many others as we don't rely on vendors to keep them updated) but, from what I've been told from developers it's pretty easy to change the code to get it to work natievely in linux.
If well written, rarely is it a big deal to move over. In fact, if really well written, it's normally zero effort at all. It often takes more effort to lock something into a platform! Which makes it all the more amazing that it happens so often.
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@Jason said:
@Dashrender said:
@johnhooks said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
The without an investment is not true. There is user training, finding comparable apps and deploying OS and said apps. Those things aren't free.
True, they are relatively free, however. Keeping Windows up to date has the same costs over time. This is a common myth that people point to to keep people from moving off of Windows. But if you watch the real world, Linux can, in some cases, actually lower the cost there. It's not uncommon for the pain of moving to Linux to be lower than the pain of updating Windows. And no matter how much someone avoids updating Windows, it has to happen at some point. And all that "cost" of the Linux move bites you regardless.
And, in fact, the more that rolling updates are avoided on windows, the more costly and painful that becomes as the changes are not small, they are disruptive.
I would like to bet that the savings in licensing and maintenance will allow places to purchase real cross platform software solutions.
Maybe - but what seems more likely is the need to have one written. Not just finding an off the shelf product already ready to go.
An example. I have a client that is a distributor for HVAC systems. They have a quoting tool that only works on Windows. This tool has all of the information needed to make quotes for the things they sell. To the best of the clients knowledge, there is no other tool like it. So if they wanted to move to Linux, they would either have to use RDS or VDI to provide access to that tool, or they would have to have a custom application written for them.
Most of our vertical applications are written in house (which has allowed us to update quicker than many others as we don't rely on vendors to keep them updated) but, from what I've been told from developers it's pretty easy to change the code to get it to work natievely in linux.
that's great - sadly frequently this is not the case - like the 90's - so many companies made intranet sites completely in .net and it only worked in IE. And amazingly those companies have not converted so much of that code, even today.
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@Dashrender said:
that's great - sadly frequently this is not the case - like the 90's - so many companies made intranet sites completely in .net and it only worked in IE. And amazingly those companies have not converted so much of that code, even today.
Actually if you used .NET as MS said you should, you'd not have any lock in, not even on the back end most of the time. .NET runs mostly on Linux (sometimes better than on Windows) and MS is dedicated to getting it to be fully cross platform. MS was pushing for good designs around neutrality for this even in the 1990s before .NET was created.
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Was is ASP then that was locked in?
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@Dashrender said:
Was is ASP then that was locked in?
ASP was locked in on the server size, more or less, because no one was making JScript or VBScript server side engines except for Microsoft. But the resulting product wasn't locked in. NTG started life making ASP DNA applications (cloud as the cool kids call it now) and we didn't have to worry about end point lock in, even in the 1990s there wasn't any intrinsic result like that.
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You can run ASP on Linux today with Apache-ASP, however the languages that were common on Windows were never ported (because they sucked like nobody's business) so you have recode in Perl.
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Here is one reason folks don't like Windows updates...
http://lifehacker.com/windows-10-updates-are-deleting-some-apps-without-notif-1762347989
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@dafyre said:
Here is one reason folks don't like Windows updates...
http://lifehacker.com/windows-10-updates-are-deleting-some-apps-without-notif-1762347989
There was an update last year around July or August that broke SolidWork's equation abilities.
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@dafyre said:
Here is one reason folks don't like Windows updates...
http://lifehacker.com/windows-10-updates-are-deleting-some-apps-without-notif-1762347989
While this is definitely a hugely bad thing, even if the app doesn't work any longer (hell if they can remove it, they can pop up a box telling you that it's incompatible) they should just leave it there to fail upon launching. But a notification that this installed version has known problems would be the best solution.
This is still not a reason to not update. Being up to date to dodge the bullets of Zero Day and near ZD exploits to me is more important than these tools that are being uninstalled.
Now broken apps by updates - sadly those happen from time to time. And more often than not it's because the App Devs did something non standard to solve a problem they had.
Early last year, nearly every DICOM reading software out there required an update/upgrade because Microsoft fixed a flaw/bug in a DLL that those vendors were all exploiting, instead of doing the right thing in the first place. I'm guessing millions of dollars were spent having to purchase upgrades that otherwise wouldn't have been needed (frankly the vendors should have give the software away - but that's just my opinion) had they done their job correctly in the first place.
