Indoctrination into Islam?
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@coliver said:
Here is one directly related to what we are talking about:
Interesting that they didn't fight it based on the constitution. They fought it on other grounds, when it was the constitution that said that Congress specifically could make no law respecting religion... which would mean that any subsequent law or interpretation would be unconstitutional if it was believed to have any respect to religion.
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@coliver said:
Here is where we get the Lemon test from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon_v._Kurtzman
Lemon Law would not apply here because it was giving Federal money to religious organizations.
That might be where much of the public school stuff comes from... that Federal funds are involved. But you can run a public school without them and I believe that the court would have no say there in that case. Obviously if the school is being used to funnel federal funds to religious groups, that's a different issue.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@coliver said:
Here is where we get the Lemon test from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon_v._Kurtzman
Lemon Law would not apply here because it was giving Federal money to religious organizations.
That might be where much of the public school stuff comes from... that Federal funds are involved. But you can run a public school without them and I believe that the court would have no say there in that case. Obviously if the school is being used to funnel federal funds to religious groups, that's a different issue.
That was my understanding as well. Let me see if I can't find the most recent SC case where a town in Upstate NY was reciting prayers before every meeting. The SC ruled that the prayers could continue providing they gave equal time to all people requesting that spot.
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Texas is doing the prayer "moment of silence" in schools currently.
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@scottalanmiller said:
Texas is doing the prayer "moment of silence" in schools currently.
There was a case about that too. Moments of silence are ok as long as a school official isn't directing it toward anything... you're really testing my recall here.
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I read both the Lemon law and the Engel wiki pages.
Both are summarizing that by supporting any religion in a Public office (school or otherwise) in any capacity with public money that it's against the constitution and therefor illegal.
Now, using school time and assigning an assignment like this one, might light a firestorm under some parent's asses, but will the government step in to reprimand the school and teach?
Or was/is next weeks assignment calligraphy of the old testament?
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@DustinB3403 said:
Both are summarizing that by supporting any religion in a Public office (school or otherwise) in any capacity with public money that it's against the constitution and therefor illegal.
Public money? Or Federal money? I think in both cases it was federal involved and only because of that was the SC even in a position to hear the case.
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@DustinB3403 said:
Or was/is next weeks assignment calligraphy of the old testament?
There is no calligraphy of the old testament. That's the thing, that's why I had the point about talking about European art. Every school I know teaches about art history and you learn about Christian art. So it is completely expected that this is just part of the normal class. This is just a single homework assignment being pulled out of context.
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@DustinB3403 said:
I read both the Lemon law and the Engel wiki pages.
Both are summarizing that by supporting any religion in a Public office (school or otherwise) in any capacity with public money that it's against the constitution and therefor illegal.
Now, using school time and assigning an assignment like this one, might light a firestorm under some parent's asses, but will the government step in to reprimand the school and teach?
Or was/is next weeks assignment calligraphy of the old testament?
It very well might be. The government probably won't step into this as it isn't a clear case of establishment, at least not as I see it. I may be misinterpreting the lesson but it doesn't seem like they are teaching calligraphy, as that wasn't the point of the assignment (this seems like it was a single question on a sheet of paper) the point of the lesson was the learn about Islam, I'm sure there were questions and information about the pillars of Islam too... if we follow the same logic that would be considered indoctrination too.
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@coliver said:
@DustinB3403 said:
I read both the Lemon law and the Engel wiki pages.
Both are summarizing that by supporting any religion in a Public office (school or otherwise) in any capacity with public money that it's against the constitution and therefor illegal.
Now, using school time and assigning an assignment like this one, might light a firestorm under some parent's asses, but will the government step in to reprimand the school and teach?
Or was/is next weeks assignment calligraphy of the old testament?
It very well might be. The government probably won't step into this as it isn't a clear case of establishment, at least not as I see it. I may be misinterpreting the lesson but it doesn't seem like they are teaching calligraphy, as that wasn't the point of the assignment (this seems like it was a single question on a sheet of paper) the point of the lesson was the learn about Islam, I'm sure there were questions and information about the pillars of Islam too... if we follow the same logic that would be considered indoctrination too.
The same as learning about World War II would be considered indoctrination into Italian Fascism!
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Tried to avoid anything German related there, lol.
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@scottalanmiller Calligraphy is just fancy hand writing.
I'm certain someone, somewhere has written something in calligraphy of the old testament that can be used as an assignment.
IE if the class is teaching about calligraphy (and not actually about religion) then multiple assignments should be provided throughout the class year.
And in this case, religious examples used for the assignment. (To be fair to everyone)
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@DustinB3403 said:
@scottalanmiller Calligraphy is just fancy hand writing.
you can say all art is just fancy doodling. Calligraphy here is a specific art that arose as part of the limitations around iconography in Islam. It's as much art as anything else. And it is absolutely integral to Arabic cultural studies. If you travel the Arab world it is completely defining to them as calligraphy and mosaics are their key art forms and means of graphical expression.
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@DustinB3403 said:
And in this case, religious examples used for the assignment. (To be fair to everyone)
this is why I used the pictures of Mary example earlier on. That's the closest thing that the Christian world has. But it is not nearly as defining. The Christian world had types of art that were encouraged by sponsorship or whatever. The Islamic world forbids most of the art popular in the Christian world, they cannot have representations of people. So the calligraphy in Islam is specifically important in a way that art in other religions is not. I know of no religion where the art is as a significant of a cultural factor.
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@scottalanmiller you have to remove religion from the equation though Scott.
Or at a very minimum, use all religious examples of calligraphy you can find covering multiple or all major religions.
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@DustinB3403 said:
@scottalanmiller you have to remove religion from the equation though Scott.
Or at a very minimum, use all religious examples of calligraphy you can find covering multiple or all major religions.
No, it is a CLASS ON RELIGION. No other religion, no major one at least, has calligraphy as an important topic. This is not an art class. It's art to understand religion, not religion to understand art.
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The entire point here is to learn about world religions. If you studied the iconography of Mary in Catholicism, you would not then study the same thing is Hindu and Islam and Buddhism because it does not apply there. It simply does not exist.
You can't reasonably learn about Islam without talking about calligraphy. But talking about calligraphy has no meaning in any other religious context.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@DustinB3403 said:
@scottalanmiller you have to remove religion from the equation though Scott.
Or at a very minimum, use all religious examples of calligraphy you can find covering multiple or all major religions.
No, it is a CLASS ON RELIGION. No other religion, no major one at least, has calligraphy as an important topic. This is not an art class. It's art to understand religion, not religion to understand art.
I think this is the big point. This is a world history/social studies class not an art class.
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OK, and sorry I must've missed that the class is a class on Religion.
Which if it is, what other assignments have been used that might be controversial? Did the teacher assign the students to buy a Quran and burn it?
Or at a very minimum, has there been some sort of this is what religion A teaches, versus Religion B?
Where is the correlation?
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In this case, art is the lens through which we look at religion and its impacts. If you didn't learn about this and travel the Islamic world you would be confused why it is the way that it is. It's not just important as a religious study, but as a general cultural one too.
