Shooting in San Bernadino
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@dafyre said:
@scottalanmiller said:
Is there any case where guns have been used to put in a new government of the people? Or only for dictators?
New governments, yes...New people in power, absolutely! New governments of the people, yea, not so much. One half trying to overthrow the other half just makes for a long and bloody fight... and then when that fight is over, the losers are resentful and the cycle begins again (especially over in the Middle east)...
That's the problem. Not that guns can't shake things up, they just don't shake things up with a positive outcome. The freedom to have guns increases the risk of losing all freedoms entirely.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@IRJ said:
The Iraqi and Syrian Army have aircraft and tanks. ISIS is doing a pretty good job against them with guns.
Right, if the goal is torture and destruction of human life and not a new government of the people, you can do it. If the goal is to set up a new, functional government of the people you cannot.
Guerrilla warfare is nothing new. The germans did it against the romans, Americans against the British, Vietnam against the Americans, Afghanistan against the Russians. In every one of those scenarios the guerrillas with inferior technology were able to win.
Then you look at places like Nazi Germany and North Korea were the people were unarmed by the government while things were good. It wasn't until after they were disarmed that things got bad.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@dafyre said:
@scottalanmiller said:
Is there any case where guns have been used to put in a new government of the people? Or only for dictators?
New governments, yes...New people in power, absolutely! New governments of the people, yea, not so much. One half trying to overthrow the other half just makes for a long and bloody fight... and then when that fight is over, the losers are resentful and the cycle begins again (especially over in the Middle east)...
That's the problem. Not that guns can't shake things up, they just don't shake things up with a positive outcome. The freedom to have guns increases the risk of losing all freedoms entirely.
You give up your ability to fight, and you give up everything to the governments. If you look back in history, governments don't exactly have a great track record.
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@anonymous said:
@scottalanmiller @iroal made it seems like the issue was that guns are easy to get in the USA.
He only said that it was amazing that they were so easy to get.
Likewise, Europeans are shocked by how much the US encourages you to drink and drive by putting bars spread out and refusing to provide public transportation. In the exact same way that the world can't believe how easily we let people with bad decision making get guns they are also shocked by how little we care about drunk driving.
It isn't that the people with the guns and the people drinking and driving aren't the ones to blame, but that people in America prefer to blame them rather than stopping the behaviour and protecting lives. Different priorities. Europeans can't believe how little we care about actually stopping either thing.
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@scottalanmiller said:
He only said that it was amazing that they were so easy to get.
Right, but guns aren't the problem, regardless.
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@IRJ said:
Then you look at places like Nazi Germany and North Korea were the people were unarmed by the government while things were good. It wasn't until after they were disarmed that things got bad.
Nazi Germany did not disarm the people. The Nazis reversed the gun restrictions that had been there. This is often misquoted to make it seem like Hitler was anti-gun to gain control of the people. Quite the opposite.
Germany had strict gun control and removed it under the Nazis. Today Germany is among the safest places on earth and also has nearly the strictest gun control. Germany is possibly the best example in modern history of gun control directly being tied to good things and loosening it to bad ones.
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@anonymous said:
@scottalanmiller said:
He only said that it was amazing that they were so easy to get.
Right, but guns aren't the problem, regardless.
No, but ability to get them, people being allowed to have them, encouraging people to use them, suggesting that killing is the answer to disagreements with the government are all part of it.
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Just like bombs aren't the problem, disease isn't the problem. But dropping bombs, spreading disease, firing a gun... those are the problems.
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@IRJ said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@dafyre said:
@scottalanmiller said:
Is there any case where guns have been used to put in a new government of the people? Or only for dictators?
New governments, yes...New people in power, absolutely! New governments of the people, yea, not so much. One half trying to overthrow the other half just makes for a long and bloody fight... and then when that fight is over, the losers are resentful and the cycle begins again (especially over in the Middle east)...
That's the problem. Not that guns can't shake things up, they just don't shake things up with a positive outcome. The freedom to have guns increases the risk of losing all freedoms entirely.
You give up your ability to fight, and you give up everything to the governments. If you look back in history, governments don't exactly have a great track record.
That's a theory, but when has it ever held up in modern times? If you don't disarm the people, you give up your freedom to the people with the guns. Weapons, rather than votes, become the agents of government. How can you have freedom if the government exists only through the threat of death to those that oppose it?
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Guys I am going to lock this topic BEFORE it gets out of hand. Remember while some political discussion is allowed arguing about it is not, and I see the writing on the wall. This is a topic that people have different views on and will never agree on.
This tragedy is horrible, that I know we can all agree on.
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After talking to a few people I am going to unlock. Keep it civil and professional people. Remember things like this are your opinions and not black and white.
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In other words, stop arguing about gun control here. Talk about the events, but no fighting. We have a thread about gun control somewhere already. go there .
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@JaredBusch said:
In other words, stop arguing about gun control here. Talk about the events, but no fighting. We have a thread about gun control somewhere already. go there .
I think that that is in the "Non-IT News" thread.
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<self moderation>
Content removed.
Not really adding to the discussion.
Also, can't purge own posts anymore
</self moderation> -
@scottalanmiller said:
@IRJ said:
Then you look at places like Nazi Germany and North Korea were the people were unarmed by the government while things were good. It wasn't until after they were disarmed that things got bad.
Nazi Germany did not disarm the people. The Nazis reversed the gun restrictions that had been there. This is often misquoted to make it seem like Hitler was anti-gun to gain control of the people. Quite the opposite.
Germany had strict gun control and removed it under the Nazis. Today Germany is among the safest places on earth and also has nearly the strictest gun control. Germany is possibly the best example in modern history of gun control directly being tied to good things and loosening it to bad ones.
In 2011 all Germany policemen shot 85 bullets
https://www.rt.com/usa/us-germany-85-shots-022/I don't know the data of Spain or rest of EU but maybe quite similar.
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@iroal said:
In 2011 all Germany policemen shot 85 bullets
https://www.rt.com/usa/us-germany-85-shots-022/I don't know the data of Spain or rest of EU but maybe quite similar.
Few Americans realize how big Germany is. Germany is more than 80 million people, so roughly 25% the size of the US. So for the US, that would be equal to 340 bullets.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@iroal said:
In 2011 all Germany policemen shot 85 bullets
https://www.rt.com/usa/us-germany-85-shots-022/I don't know the data of Spain or rest of EU but maybe quite similar.
Few Americans realize how big Germany is. Germany is more than 80 million people, so roughly 25% the size of the US. So for the US, that would be equal to 340 bullets.
I wonder if that means that the German Police are actually better shots, ha ha ha.
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@dafyre said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@iroal said:
In 2011 all Germany policemen shot 85 bullets
https://www.rt.com/usa/us-germany-85-shots-022/I don't know the data of Spain or rest of EU but maybe quite similar.
Few Americans realize how big Germany is. Germany is more than 80 million people, so roughly 25% the size of the US. So for the US, that would be equal to 340 bullets.
I wonder if that means that the German Police are actually better shots, ha ha ha.
Hopefully, regardless of anything else, that is true.
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@JaredBusch said:
@scottalanmiller said:
This was the second mass shooting in the US today and the 355th so far this year. Mass shootings in the US are truly routine at this point.
I disagree with this. Prior to Columbine and all the more recent mass shootings, something like the Georgia incident would never have been deemed a mass shooting. Even if it is "mass" by textbook definition.
The entire mass shooting statistic is made up to server political purposes.
A very good article on this subject. That 355 number is completely made up by one person with his own agenda.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/04/opinion/how-many-mass-shootings-are-there-really.html
