How to Balance Standards - Work and Personal
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@Dashrender said:
So what is one to do when you KNOW you need advice?
Most important thing is avoid salespeople until you have the advice that you need!
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It really depends on the area that you are in. Are you talking about cars, computers, IT systems design, stereo equipment, etc.?
If you are talking about cars and have zero knowledge of them, a good place to start is with a neutral, non-sales expert or near-expert like a third party garage. Find your neighbourhood garage that you would use and talk to them. Make sure they handle more or less all cars and aren't like a Honda aftermarket performance shop but a normal shop full of people whose expertise is car maintenance. They might not be the absolute best resource, but they are domain related experts, see a vast number of cars intimately and are not paid to promote a specific product. They might give good advice quickly in return for the hope that you will bring your cars there over time.
There aren't really car consultants, but a shop like this might be able to help you find someone to act as one. Most people know lots of people who know a lot about cars so it is often easy to solicit feedback.
There are tons of publications that review cars too, and many websites. And things like JD Power and Assoc. that collect reliability studies.
Cars are actually one of the harder ones to learn about if you didn't grow up learning about them, which most people do.
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For anything IT or computer related, you have loads and loads of online resources, of course, and communities like SW and ML that are great starting points. For home users looking for this advice, I would think that it is best to find IT experts as they are relatively everywhere, and buy them some coffee or lunch in exchange for some quick advice if you need something personalized. Don't necessarily need to formally hire someone long term or anything. But you need to make sure they are not representing a vendor or being paid to sell you something.
For IT it is like any business function (e.g. human resources, finance, legal, facilities, etc.) you do one of two things: build an internal department of expertise and/or hire a consulting/outsourcing firm that provides this expertise. Every business needs these functions. Some limp along reading books and trying to develop the knowledge in house for cheap. Most small firms hire accounting shops to do their taxes, bookkeeping shops to do the books day to day, a law firm to check contracts, an IT firm to design and maintain the corporate infrastructure. As companies grow, often one by one they hire experts to bring these functions or some portion of them in house, but that's mostly semantics. Whether they are internal or external experts, someone has to be a paid expert in the guidance in the area specified to have good, solid advice.
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Heck even posting on Facebook and allowing random everyone post their opinion on what you should get is better than 90% of the sales people out there.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
So what is one to do when you KNOW you need advice?
Most important thing is avoid salespeople until you have the advice that you need!
How are you suppose to know the difference between a sales person and non sales person - is it basically that you're paying someone?
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@Minion-Queen said:
Heck even posting on Facebook and allowing random everyone post their opinion on what you should get is better than 90% of the sales people out there.
I definitely agree with this!
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@Dashrender said:
@Carnival-Boy said:
Just because AJ's tech supervisor doesn't like it, doesn't mean AJ is wrong. His supervisor could just be an idiot for all we know.
While I agreed with most of the first part of what you said, this quoted part I completely disagree with you on. AJ in this case is wrong - as long as what AJ's boss is asking him to do is legal, AJ should be doing exactly that.
Woah there Dash! Which bit is AJ wrong about and which bit is he right about? If my boss told me I would, henceforth, have to call all customers Bob, rather than their actual name, then that is exactly what I would do, because he's my boss and I follow his orders. But I would still think that he is wrong and is an idiot/insane. And ultimately I would get tired of calling everyone Bob, and putting up with customers telling me they're not called Bob, and I would leave and get another job.
Now as far as I can tell, AJ hasn't been given any direct orders which he has disobeyed. And as far as I can tell, he hasn't done anything that his contract or training contradicts. His boss hasn't ordered him to sell laptop X or laptop Y, he's simply bitched that he doesn't like AJ's decisions. And AJ has bitched that he's wrong, and as with my Bob-fixated boss, it appears to have resulted in him finding another job and hopefully going to work for someone who isn't an idiot.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
@Dashrender said:
@Carnival-Boy said:
Just because AJ's tech supervisor doesn't like it, doesn't mean AJ is wrong. His supervisor could just be an idiot for all we know.
While I agreed with most of the first part of what you said, this quoted part I completely disagree with you on. AJ in this case is wrong - as long as what AJ's boss is asking him to do is legal, AJ should be doing exactly that.
Woah there Dash! Which bit is AJ wrong about and which bit is he right about? If my boss told me I would, henceforth, have to call all customers Bob, rather than their actual name, then that is exactly what I would do, because he's my boss and I follow his orders. But I would still think that he is wrong and is an idiot/insane. And ultimately I would get tired of calling everyone Bob, and putting up with customers telling me they're not called Bob, and I would leave and get another job.
Now as far as I can tell, AJ hasn't been given any direct orders which he has disobeyed. And as far as I can tell, he hasn't done anything that his contract or training contradicts. His boss hasn't ordered him to sell laptop X or laptop Y, he's simply bitched that he doesn't like AJ's decisions. And AJ has bitched that he's wrong, and as with my Bob-fixated boss, it appears to have resulted in him finding another job and hopefully going to work for someone who isn't an idiot.
You're right, AJ hasn't told us if his boss has told him to do something and that he (AJ) is refusing to do said thing. He'd be wrong if he wasn't doing what his boss told him to do, (in your example call everyone Bob). While it's possible that AJ and his new boss just don't get along for whatever reason - AJ definitely has rubbed people wrong in this group - and that may be the only reason that this boss is complaining, because he's the boss and he can.
So back to your question, what part was wrong - the only part that is wrong is if AJ isn't do what his boss told him to do, but for now we don't know if that's true or not. But it doesn't matter if his boss is an idiot or not, he still has to do what the boss says until he no longer works there, or the situation changes.
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Yes!! THIS!! Even if your boss is wrong unless you are willing to take the chance to go over his head. You do what your boss says period end of story.
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@Dashrender said:
How are you suppose to know the difference between a sales person and non sales person - is it basically that you're paying someone?
As much as it is hard to describe, I'm confident that people know how to identify a salesperson. We see them every day and identify them every day. When you are dealing with a store selling something, the people you deal with are salespeople. Even if you are paying them, someone who is a salesperson remains a salesperson.
As much as there could be secret salespeople on there, it's not very realistic. People know when they are talking to a store. It's not really something that catches them by surprise.
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@scottalanmiller said:
When you set foot into a Chevy dealer, everyone knows that the guy who works there is going to attempt to sell you a Chevy, not to determine if a Ford, or a boat, is a better choice for your needs. There is never an obligation for the Chevy salesman to be a transportation consultant, and it would be incredibly silly for someone to expect such.
That's not the same as Staples (or at least, Staples in the UK), since Staples isn't tied to a specific manufacturer. It is more like going to an Apple store and asking for advice on which type of tablet to buy - you are going to be advised to buy an iPad. And it's not a good example in AJ's case, since his boss's complaint is that he is only selling one model of laptop. AJ is the equivalent of the Chevy salesmen in that he will only sell you a specific HP laptop.
Now if I knew I wanted a Chevy, but wasn't sure which model, then I might take some advice from the Chevy salesmen.
Anyway, as far as I can tell in the UK, Staples are like most UK electronics retailers in that they make pretty much zero margin on hardware sales and only make anything on selling financing and extended warranties. They're effectively finance companies rather than hardware resellers. So if I'm not buying on credit and I don't want a warranty then I doubt the salesman really gives a crap what I buy, so he may given me his honest opinion.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
How are you suppose to know the difference between a sales person and non sales person - is it basically that you're paying someone?
As much as it is hard to describe, I'm confident that people know how to identify a salesperson. We see them every day and identify them every day. When you are dealing with a store selling something, the people you deal with are salespeople. Even if you are paying them, someone who is a salesperson remains a salesperson.
As much as there could be secret salespeople on there, it's not very realistic. People know when they are talking to a store. It's not really something that catches them by surprise.
I'd argue that specialist that CDW bring on the line are not sales people - at least they are not suppose to be sales people - in talking to them the reality is that I have discovered them to all be sales people who are only trained in one or two products, maybe they know it well, maybe not. Granted as IT people we should be able to tell when talking to them, but I'm guessing that reality shows this to be very different situation and people (whomever they are) are using those resources inappropriately and sadly not realizing it until it's to late.
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@Dashrender said:
How are you suppose to know the difference between a sales person and non sales person - is it basically that you're paying someone?
If you are getting "free" advice something is wrong. You can get advice from friends, or by buying someone coffee or as a favour - those are not exactly free, we understand that you can get a friend to fix your car too. That's not a sales situation. But by and large, unless you have a relationship that covers the need to pay, you need to pay for skills like anything else. Skills are the most expensive commodity. Anyone can do sales, you don't need specific skills to do sales. You might be able to do even better by knowing more, but it isn't required.
To be a consultant in any given field, you need to have knowledge in that field. Sure, you could try to sell your services without having any skills, just like I could go claim to be an interior designer, but that's a separate issue. At least when you hire someone there is an obligation of them to you. When you work with a salesman, there is none. Their obligations are to the company, not to you.
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I couldn't agree more with everything you just typed.
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A good example is real estate. In the US at least, you have a buyer's advocate (consultant) and a seller's advocate (salesman.) The one represents you and protects you from salesman, helps you understand your needs, guides you in things you do not understand. There are legal protections (in the US) to keep seller and buyer's agents completely separate.
The seller's agent is just a salesman. They are on commission, they have only one job which is to convince people to buy the property.
When it comes to items as important as real estate, there are laws to make the sales and consulting pieces completely exposed and declared and to make sure that they never overlap. In things like IT, HR, etc. those conflicts of interest are for the customer to manage and to some degree this requires trust that the consultants are not lying about having a conflict of interest, but the basics are the same.
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@Dashrender said:
I'd argue that specialist that CDW bring on the line are not sales people - at least they are not suppose to be sales people ...
Do they work for a reseller? If so, how do you define not supposed to be sales people?
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@Dashrender said:
I couldn't agree with everything you just typed.
Any particular parts you agree or don't agree with?
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
I couldn't agree with everything you just typed.
Any particular parts you agree or don't agree with?
I left out the word more.... I've corrected.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
I'd argue that specialist that CDW bring on the line are not sales people - at least they are not suppose to be sales people ...
Do they work for a reseller? If so, how do you define not supposed to be sales people?
lol Of course, they work for CDW - but by the definition anyone working for a reseller is a sales person and your above stated stipulations must apply - NTG sells O365, so therefore you're all sales persons and what?
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@Dashrender said:
....in talking to them the reality is that I have discovered them to all be sales people who are only trained in one or two products, maybe they know it well, maybe not.
Which is exactly how working for a store and what the social contract as I understand it states things would be expected to happen. A guy who makes his money selling you stuff while working at a store.... is a salesman no matter how he is presented to you. He might be more technical than the average salesperson, but no amount of technical expertise changes the sales factor. Is he paid to be a consultant or paid to be a salesperson (technical or not?)
I've considered pre-sales engineering jobs before and will entertain them in the future. There is nothing wrong with sales people, it is how people expect them to misbehave that is the issue. But if I do that job and someone things I'm not a salesperson, that is crazy because I would be being paid to make a sale. That I am technical is not a factor.
