Non-IT News Thread
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@dustinb3403 it's interesting that you choose the president as an example when you just denied the governor's authority to name the bomber.
"Texas Governor Greg Abbot told Fox News that he lived with two flatmates in Pflugerville, about 20 miles north of Austin. "
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So since the police derive their authority from the governor, in the case in Texas, and you don't feel that the Texas government has authority, why do you feel that the police, a subset of the government, have authority? What is the source of their authority if the top levels of government don't have it?
I'm happy to accept the government as not being authoritative, they are arbitrary people, of course. But the police are a derivative of that. So logically if you give authority to the police, you do so moreso to the government that they are a part of in general.
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ML rocks!! I love discussions like this. Being nonthinking and all.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dustinb3403 it's interesting that you choose the president as an example when you just denied the governor's authority to name the bomber.
"Texas Governor Greg Abbot told Fox News that he lived with two flatmates in Pflugerville, about 20 miles north of Austin. "
"Who is the suspect?
Police have not formally identified the suspect, but he has been named in US media as Mark Anthony Conditt, aged 23."The governor has no authority to tell the media this information. He is not investigative, he is not judicial. He runs the government for the state and should leave this announcement to the police department.
It is the police/ FBI / named authoritative person's responsibility to do this, not his.
The governor in this case, essentially leaked information to the media before all of the facts and proof has been collected and analysed in any reasonable fashion.
For all we know, this was a copycat of whoever made the first bombs.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dustinb3403 said in Non-IT News Thread:
Um... yes that is how authority works. Someone or people have put some person into that position. Authority. . .
That's not how authority works, that's how society likes to make you think it works. Some random person says "authority" and you just accept it. That's really just marketing.
Well if they are the president, Director of Security Agencies, Senators, Police Chieft, your boss you name it, they have authority whether you agree with it or not. You don't need to follow it but what they say has authority over what they have been entrusted to.
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@dbeato said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dustinb3403 said in Non-IT News Thread:
Um... yes that is how authority works. Someone or people have put some person into that position. Authority. . .
That's not how authority works, that's how society likes to make you think it works. Some random person says "authority" and you just accept it. That's really just marketing.
Well if they are the president, Director of Security Agencies, Senators, Police Chieft, your boss you name it, they have authority whether you agree with it or not. You don't need to follow it but what they say has authority over what they have been entrusted to.
Yes, if you accept that all people have authority, everyone has some degree of authority. But to be the authority is different.
I'm an authority, your an authority, the president is an authority, etc.
For example, the police have the authority to arrest someone under US law, or Texas law in this case. They are the legal authority to arrest. They are not the legal authority to determine guilt. A Texas court has the legal authority to determine guilt. But neither the police nor the courts have any more authority to determine who actually did something than anyone else is, you, me, the media, etc.
The power to rule is a form of authority, but only authority over what they can physical coerce. Authority, in the more general sense, does not exist in that way.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dbeato said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dustinb3403 said in Non-IT News Thread:
Um... yes that is how authority works. Someone or people have put some person into that position. Authority. . .
That's not how authority works, that's how society likes to make you think it works. Some random person says "authority" and you just accept it. That's really just marketing.
Well if they are the president, Director of Security Agencies, Senators, Police Chieft, your boss you name it, they have authority whether you agree with it or not. You don't need to follow it but what they say has authority over what they have been entrusted to.
Yes, if you accept that all people have authority, everyone has some degree of authority. But to be the authority is different.
I'm an authority, your an authority, the president is an authority, etc.
For example, the police have the authority to arrest someone under US law, or Texas law in this case. They are the legal authority to arrest. They are not the legal authority to determine guilt. A Texas court has the legal authority to determine guilt. But neither the police nor the courts have any more authority to determine who actually did something than anyone else is, you, me, the media, etc.
The power to rule is a form of authority, but only authority over what they can physical coerce. Authority, in the more general sense, does not exist in that way.
Yes authority is the right to exercise power legally entitled to the position your are in.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dbeato said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dustinb3403 said in Non-IT News Thread:
Um... yes that is how authority works. Someone or people have put some person into that position. Authority. . .
That's not how authority works, that's how society likes to make you think it works. Some random person says "authority" and you just accept it. That's really just marketing.
Well if they are the president, Director of Security Agencies, Senators, Police Chieft, your boss you name it, they have authority whether you agree with it or not. You don't need to follow it but what they say has authority over what they have been entrusted to.
Yes, if you accept that all people have authority, everyone has some degree of authority. But to be the authority is different.
I'm an authority, your an authority, the president is an authority, etc.
For example, the police have the authority to arrest someone under US law, or Texas law in this case. They are the legal authority to arrest. They are not the legal authority to determine guilt. A Texas court has the legal authority to determine guilt. But neither the police nor the courts have any more authority to determine who actually did something than anyone else is, you, me, the media, etc.
The power to rule is a form of authority, but only authority over what they can physical coerce. Authority, in the more general sense, does not exist in that way.
Technically only the court has the authority to determine guilt, if it is a bench trial. Otherwise it would be the jury, which isn't technically part of the court. The jury is made up of your peers.
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@penguinwrangler said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dbeato said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dustinb3403 said in Non-IT News Thread:
Um... yes that is how authority works. Someone or people have put some person into that position. Authority. . .
That's not how authority works, that's how society likes to make you think it works. Some random person says "authority" and you just accept it. That's really just marketing.
Well if they are the president, Director of Security Agencies, Senators, Police Chieft, your boss you name it, they have authority whether you agree with it or not. You don't need to follow it but what they say has authority over what they have been entrusted to.
Yes, if you accept that all people have authority, everyone has some degree of authority. But to be the authority is different.
I'm an authority, your an authority, the president is an authority, etc.
For example, the police have the authority to arrest someone under US law, or Texas law in this case. They are the legal authority to arrest. They are not the legal authority to determine guilt. A Texas court has the legal authority to determine guilt. But neither the police nor the courts have any more authority to determine who actually did something than anyone else is, you, me, the media, etc.
The power to rule is a form of authority, but only authority over what they can physical coerce. Authority, in the more general sense, does not exist in that way.
Technically only the court has the authority to determine guilt, if it is a bench trial. Otherwise it would be the jury, which isn't technically part of the court. The jury is made up of your peers.
Well no, the court determines legal guilt not actual guilt. Guilt is not determined by any authority, but only by fact.
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@dbeato said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dbeato said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dustinb3403 said in Non-IT News Thread:
Um... yes that is how authority works. Someone or people have put some person into that position. Authority. . .
That's not how authority works, that's how society likes to make you think it works. Some random person says "authority" and you just accept it. That's really just marketing.
Well if they are the president, Director of Security Agencies, Senators, Police Chieft, your boss you name it, they have authority whether you agree with it or not. You don't need to follow it but what they say has authority over what they have been entrusted to.
Yes, if you accept that all people have authority, everyone has some degree of authority. But to be the authority is different.
I'm an authority, your an authority, the president is an authority, etc.
For example, the police have the authority to arrest someone under US law, or Texas law in this case. They are the legal authority to arrest. They are not the legal authority to determine guilt. A Texas court has the legal authority to determine guilt. But neither the police nor the courts have any more authority to determine who actually did something than anyone else is, you, me, the media, etc.
The power to rule is a form of authority, but only authority over what they can physical coerce. Authority, in the more general sense, does not exist in that way.
Yes authority is the right to exercise power legally entitled to the position your are in.
Not quite, it's the power to exercise but is not tied to legality. By definition, "authority" is simply taken by power. That power might come from the legal system, but might not. Authority and legality don't go together unless you use the specific term "legal authority."
Legal authority is a specific context of authority that happens only within the courts.
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For example, if you murder someone, you are guilty of murder. Period. It is fact.
No one might know that you did it, but you are still guilty.
A court might try you and find you guilty, that's legal guilt. They might also not have enough evidence, mistrial, or just make a mistake and not find you guilty. That doesn't change your actual guilt, but it does make you legally innocent.
Courts have nothing to do with actual guilt, they only are involved with legal guilt which sometimes matches actual guilt, and sometimes does not. Two different, loosely related, concepts.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
For example, if you murder someone, you are guilty of murder. Period. It is fact.
No one might know that you did it, but you are still guilty.
A court might try you and find you guilty, that's legal guilt. They might also not have enough evidence, mistrial, or just make a mistake and not find you guilty. That doesn't change your actual guilt, but it does make you legally innocent.
Courts have nothing to do with actual guilt, they only are involved with legal guilt which sometimes matches actual guilt, and sometimes does not. Two different, loosely related, concepts.
What the hell does this have to do with the fact that the Texas governor is a leak to the media. He has no authority to essentially call this case closed and come out with an announcement like this.
For all we know, this guy who was killed by explosion was a target of a possibly still alive bomber.
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@dustinb3403 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
For example, if you murder someone, you are guilty of murder. Period. It is fact.
No one might know that you did it, but you are still guilty.
A court might try you and find you guilty, that's legal guilt. They might also not have enough evidence, mistrial, or just make a mistake and not find you guilty. That doesn't change your actual guilt, but it does make you legally innocent.
Courts have nothing to do with actual guilt, they only are involved with legal guilt which sometimes matches actual guilt, and sometimes does not. Two different, loosely related, concepts.
What the hell does this have to do with the fact that the Texas governor is a leak to the media. He has no authority to essentially call this case closed and come out with an announcement like this.
For all we know, this guy who was killed by explosion was a target of a possibly still alive bomber.
Yes, but that unknown is unrelated to authority. The governor is the ultimate authority in this matter, far higher than the police. But neither he, nor the police, nor the courts can determine definitely who did what. But when it comes to legal authority, he's as high as you go with a state level case.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dustinb3403 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
For example, if you murder someone, you are guilty of murder. Period. It is fact.
No one might know that you did it, but you are still guilty.
A court might try you and find you guilty, that's legal guilt. They might also not have enough evidence, mistrial, or just make a mistake and not find you guilty. That doesn't change your actual guilt, but it does make you legally innocent.
Courts have nothing to do with actual guilt, they only are involved with legal guilt which sometimes matches actual guilt, and sometimes does not. Two different, loosely related, concepts.
What the hell does this have to do with the fact that the Texas governor is a leak to the media. He has no authority to essentially call this case closed and come out with an announcement like this.
For all we know, this guy who was killed by explosion was a target of a possibly still alive bomber.
Yes, but that unknown is unrelated to authority. The governor is the ultimate authority in this matter, far higher than the police. But neither he, nor the police, nor the courts can determine definitely who did what. But when it comes to legal authority, he's as high as you go with a state level case.
No. . . the highest authority in texas would be the Supreme Court of Texas. . .
This is a legal matter, a case of damages and harm to people. The governor is not in charge of legal cases such as this, and the FBI is investigating the case and they have more authority than this clown does in this case.
IE he isn't the ultimate authority in the matter as there are others who have more insight and knowledge about what is going on.
This is a case that has to go to court, no matter what to actually determine legal guilt. Even if the suspect is truly the person behind the crime.
You're arguing semantics here and are wrong. The governor doesn't have the authority to declare this guy the bomber. That would be the court's responsibility to do, based on examining evidence and going through the court process to determine legal guilt.
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@dustinb3403 said in Non-IT News Thread:
This is a legal matter...
I thought we were discussing who the bomber was, not if it can be proven. You are talking about something unrelated to the discussion at hand. Courts don't determine who did something, they determine who the government prosecutes. Different things.
So this is not a legal matter as discussed. That would explain the disconnect. The legal matter is separate and not happening yet.
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@dustinb3403 said in Non-IT News Thread:
You're arguing semantics here and are wrong.
Actually no, I made the statement. The semantic argument is what you started. I made a simple statement, that was just a quote from the highest authority in the land. You don't like it, and started adding in semantic nuances to try to make me wrong, when I wasn't.
The person who makes the first statement that is then corrected based on semantics isn't the one "arguing semantics".
