Non-IT News Thread
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@dafyre said in Non-IT News Thread:
Freedom is also defending my family from folks who wish to do us harm.
And I would say that freedom would be better if you didn't have to do so. I'd prefer they to be safe from harm, than have harm attempted and try to mitigate it.
Harm avoidance rather than harm recovery.
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Did that make sense? To me, I'm more free than anyone that feels the need for a gun. Because I don't need one to keep my family even safer... and without needing to give up my other freedoms.
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@dafyre said in Non-IT News Thread:
For me, it is the ability to live my life without having to answer to the government every time I say a prayer, walk around my neighborhood, talk with my neighbors, and support my family. Freedom is also defending my family from folks who wish to do us harm.
You can't do these things now? I would say if these are your metrics you are very much a free person.
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Free is, of course, mostly a mental state. In the same society one person will feel free while another will feel oppressed. For example, some people feel that being able to have a gun makes them more free, while others feel that being able to live without fear of people have guns makes them more free. Freedom can be opposing depending on what you feel makes you free.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dafyre said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
The whole reason that the second amendment is there is to protect your freedom.
To protect your freedom by having the ability to easily take away your neighbour's freedom. I don't think that that is why that was added to the law.
A person is not free to come into my house uninvited. The law calls that breaking & entering. Common sense tells me to judiciously defend my family as necessary, and I will do so.
But common sense also would tell you that statistically the gun is more dangerous to your family than the person breaking and entering. So judiciously you'd avoid the gun and take your chances with the person who might break and enter.
What I consistently find surprising is how many Americans are convinced that they must defend their homes. Why does everyone feel that someone breaking into their homes is such a likely risk that they would take on the cost, responsibility and statistical danger of having guns in the home? It's like in IT implementing HA without verifying the need - most companies that implement HA do so in the wrong way taking on more risk than if they had just skipped it. The risk that they are protecting against is small and unlikely while the risk that they take on to mitigate it is large and certain.
The fear of needing to defend the home so certainly I would equate to not being free.
In this case,I made no mention of a gun (although I realize in the previous paragraphs the Second Ammendment was mentioned). I don't need a gun. I have other methods of defending my family. It's not about defending things, it's about defending the people that live or are visiting the house.
I can fill a page of this thread with thefts and break-ins in my neighborhood from the past three weeks. I could care less about things, but if you break into my house while my family is home, then expect a most judicious defense.
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It's the same as the original colonists.... today we often define religious freedom as the right to choose your own religion. But the country was founded on the ideal of taking that freedom away (because Europe already had it) and having the freedom to force everyone to be in your religion. My family came to America for that purpose and I am very ashamed of them. They came to ensure that their children would not be exposed to religious freedom so that they would not choose a more free and welcoming lifestyle as was and is popular in Europe.
For a long time, America swung towards individual freedom to choose being the definition of religious freedom. But today it is swinging back and people are fighting for the freedom to tightly define the religious rights of others. It's not a new thing, it's America returning to its roots.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
Did that make sense? To me, I'm more free than anyone that feels the need for a gun. Because I don't need one to keep my family even safer... and without needing to give up my other freedoms.
Yea, I totally get it, and agree.
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@dafyre said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dafyre said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
The whole reason that the second amendment is there is to protect your freedom.
To protect your freedom by having the ability to easily take away your neighbour's freedom. I don't think that that is why that was added to the law.
A person is not free to come into my house uninvited. The law calls that breaking & entering. Common sense tells me to judiciously defend my family as necessary, and I will do so.
But common sense also would tell you that statistically the gun is more dangerous to your family than the person breaking and entering. So judiciously you'd avoid the gun and take your chances with the person who might break and enter.
What I consistently find surprising is how many Americans are convinced that they must defend their homes. Why does everyone feel that someone breaking into their homes is such a likely risk that they would take on the cost, responsibility and statistical danger of having guns in the home? It's like in IT implementing HA without verifying the need - most companies that implement HA do so in the wrong way taking on more risk than if they had just skipped it. The risk that they are protecting against is small and unlikely while the risk that they take on to mitigate it is large and certain.
The fear of needing to defend the home so certainly I would equate to not being free.
In this case,I made no mention of a gun (although I realize in the previous paragraphs the Second Ammendment was mentioned). I don't need a gun. I have other methods of defending my family. It's not about defending things, it's about defending the people that live or are visiting the house.
I can fill a page of this thread with thefts and break-ins in my neighborhood from the past three weeks. I could care less about things, but if you break into my house while my family is home, then expect a most judicious defense.
I use my "freedom to relocate" as a part of that for me. I move my family to places where I don't feel the need to lock the doors (I still do, but I would sleep fine knowing they were wide open... except that there are bears.) If you define the freedom of protection as the freedom to be safe, I totally agree. I think that the freedom for guns and/or the need for them implies that the freedom to be safe is lacking.
Sadly, the place with the best right to own a gun (Texas) also doesn't have the freedom to defend your family (they are about to execute someone for doing just that in his own home when assailants broke in and threatened his family's safety.) In Texas you can get the chair (they don't really use a chair) for defending your children inside your own home.
So at least there, the right to OWN a gun and the right to use it don't match.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
It's the same as the original colonists.... today we often define religious freedom as the right to choose your own religion. But the country was founded on the ideal of taking that freedom away (because Europe already had it) and having the freedom to force everyone to be in your religion. My family came to America for that purpose and I am very ashamed of them. They came to ensure that their children would not be exposed to religious freedom so that they would not choose a more free and welcoming lifestyle as was and is popular in Europe.
For a long time, America swung towards individual freedom to choose being the definition of religious freedom. But today it is swinging back and people are fighting for the freedom to tightly define the religious rights of others. It's not a new thing, it's America returning to its roots.
This is too true. Freedom in all its forms swings on a giant pendulum back and forth, in and out of the ages.
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@dafyre said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
It's the same as the original colonists.... today we often define religious freedom as the right to choose your own religion. But the country was founded on the ideal of taking that freedom away (because Europe already had it) and having the freedom to force everyone to be in your religion. My family came to America for that purpose and I am very ashamed of them. They came to ensure that their children would not be exposed to religious freedom so that they would not choose a more free and welcoming lifestyle as was and is popular in Europe.
For a long time, America swung towards individual freedom to choose being the definition of religious freedom. But today it is swinging back and people are fighting for the freedom to tightly define the religious rights of others. It's not a new thing, it's America returning to its roots.
This is too true. Freedom in all its forms swings on a giant pendulum back and forth, in and out of the ages.
Which is why I don't agree with freedom conceptually. Not that I don't want to be "free" and others to be "free", but the idea is, I think, a silly concept. For example, the freedom to elect your own government includes the ability to remove freedoms. You could, strangely, lobby for a law that would have yourself put in jail just... because. Get enough support and that law could be passed. Why? Who knows. But you could make a law, by using your freedom to guide the government, to take away ALL of your other freedoms. Freedom is a potentially self defeating concept.
Freedom of speech brings the freedom to lie. Do you have the right to scream fire in a crowded theatre? In an empty one? In the forest? Once you start to curtail the freedom, when does it switch from being more free to less free?
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@travisdh1 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@travisdh1 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@DustinB3403 said in Non-IT News Thread:
Yeah most laws today aren't doing much of anything useful. (read most of them) Some protect wildlife habitats, or other good things.
Don't make me tell you about the owls and the stupidity of "protecting" them by banning clear-cutting.
Can you share some more there?
Fine, have it your way.
So someone claimed that the barn owl population was plummeting due to clear cutting back in the 90s. "Where are the owls going to live?" they asked, all the freaking time. "You're taking away their home!" they cried. As it turned out, the barn owl population was actually exploding. For some reason, large birds need large, open areas to hunt in. Whoda thunk it huh? Kinda reminds me of the Polar Bear situation today.
So Barn Owls are a bad thing?
Where is my Barn Owl hat then?
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
One of the biggest issues with any discussion like this is that "freedom" isn't a real thing, or at least not a solid thing. Americans have "freedom" drilled into them their entire lives and the word is thrown about without much thought, as if all freedom is good and that more is always better. That's purely an Americanism and most of the world does not agree.
Interesting documentary, and I mean documentary, not conspiracy film, about the concept of freedom, choice, and how reality is different, and how the American idea of making people free, doesn't work:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trap_(TV_series)
It's on YouTube, etc. I also recommend Power of Nightmares, it's almost a prequal to this, but that's about Neoconservative policies and Islamic terrorism.
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@DustinB3403 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@travisdh1 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@travisdh1 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@DustinB3403 said in Non-IT News Thread:
Yeah most laws today aren't doing much of anything useful. (read most of them) Some protect wildlife habitats, or other good things.
Don't make me tell you about the owls and the stupidity of "protecting" them by banning clear-cutting.
Can you share some more there?
Fine, have it your way.
So someone claimed that the barn owl population was plummeting due to clear cutting back in the 90s. "Where are the owls going to live?" they asked, all the freaking time. "You're taking away their home!" they cried. As it turned out, the barn owl population was actually exploding. For some reason, large birds need large, open areas to hunt in. Whoda thunk it huh? Kinda reminds me of the Polar Bear situation today.
So Barn Owls are a bad thing?
Where is my Barn Owl hat then?
Well, they do tend to eat small rodents that tend to make themselves annoying, so overall I'd say having lots of them around is a good thing.
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Freedom is really, I think, a means of controlling the population. Freedom in America is, in some ways, a form of taking away freedom itself. It's propaganda, a way for the government to guide people however they want.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
But the country was founded on the ideal of taking that freedom away (because Europe already had it) and having the freedom to force everyone to be in your religion. My family came to America for that purpose and I am very ashamed of them. They came to ensure that their children would not be exposed to religious freedom so that they would not choose a more free and welcoming lifestyle as was and is popular in Europe.
That's a rather revisionist version of European history there. The 17th century was rife with religion based or justified wars. Religious persecution of non conformist sects was rampant, and the conflicts between Protestants and Catholics raged across large sections of the continent.
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@Kelly said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
But the country was founded on the ideal of taking that freedom away (because Europe already had it) and having the freedom to force everyone to be in your religion. My family came to America for that purpose and I am very ashamed of them. They came to ensure that their children would not be exposed to religious freedom so that they would not choose a more free and welcoming lifestyle as was and is popular in Europe.
That's a rather revisionist version of European history there. The 17th century was rife with religion based or justified wars. Religious persecution of non conformist sects was rampant, and the conflicts between Protestants and Catholics raged across large sections of the continent.
But not in the areas from which people were coming to the US. Holland, from where the pilgrams came, was religiously free, for example.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Kelly said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
But the country was founded on the ideal of taking that freedom away (because Europe already had it) and having the freedom to force everyone to be in your religion. My family came to America for that purpose and I am very ashamed of them. They came to ensure that their children would not be exposed to religious freedom so that they would not choose a more free and welcoming lifestyle as was and is popular in Europe.
That's a rather revisionist version of European history there. The 17th century was rife with religion based or justified wars. Religious persecution of non conformist sects was rampant, and the conflicts between Protestants and Catholics raged across large sections of the continent.
But not in the areas from which people were coming to the US. Holland, from where the pilgrams came, was religiously free, for example.
And Holland was an anomaly in Europe. In addition, it was in the middle of the 80 years war when the pilgrims left it. A political war justified by religious differences.
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@Kelly said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Kelly said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
But the country was founded on the ideal of taking that freedom away (because Europe already had it) and having the freedom to force everyone to be in your religion. My family came to America for that purpose and I am very ashamed of them. They came to ensure that their children would not be exposed to religious freedom so that they would not choose a more free and welcoming lifestyle as was and is popular in Europe.
That's a rather revisionist version of European history there. The 17th century was rife with religion based or justified wars. Religious persecution of non conformist sects was rampant, and the conflicts between Protestants and Catholics raged across large sections of the continent.
But not in the areas from which people were coming to the US. Holland, from where the pilgrams came, was religiously free, for example.
And Holland was an anomaly in Europe. In addition, it was in the middle of the 80 years war when the pilgrims left it. A political war justified by religious differences.
True, but the reason that they left was the broad religious tolerance. They wanted the opposite. And the primary religious intolerance in England was caused by... the pilgrims that didn't leave (the British civil war was them over throwing the government to set up a religious military state.)
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Kelly said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Kelly said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
But the country was founded on the ideal of taking that freedom away (because Europe already had it) and having the freedom to force everyone to be in your religion. My family came to America for that purpose and I am very ashamed of them. They came to ensure that their children would not be exposed to religious freedom so that they would not choose a more free and welcoming lifestyle as was and is popular in Europe.
That's a rather revisionist version of European history there. The 17th century was rife with religion based or justified wars. Religious persecution of non conformist sects was rampant, and the conflicts between Protestants and Catholics raged across large sections of the continent.
But not in the areas from which people were coming to the US. Holland, from where the pilgrams came, was religiously free, for example.
And Holland was an anomaly in Europe. In addition, it was in the middle of the 80 years war when the pilgrims left it. A political war justified by religious differences.
True, but the reason that they left was the broad religious tolerance. They wanted the opposite. And the primary religious intolerance in England was caused by... the pilgrims that didn't leave (the British civil war was them over throwing the government to set up a religious military state.)
I wasn't critiquing your statements regarding the motivations of the pilgrims, but rather the broadness of the claim that Europe already had religious freedom at that time.
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@Kelly said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Kelly said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Kelly said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
But the country was founded on the ideal of taking that freedom away (because Europe already had it) and having the freedom to force everyone to be in your religion. My family came to America for that purpose and I am very ashamed of them. They came to ensure that their children would not be exposed to religious freedom so that they would not choose a more free and welcoming lifestyle as was and is popular in Europe.
That's a rather revisionist version of European history there. The 17th century was rife with religion based or justified wars. Religious persecution of non conformist sects was rampant, and the conflicts between Protestants and Catholics raged across large sections of the continent.
But not in the areas from which people were coming to the US. Holland, from where the pilgrams came, was religiously free, for example.
And Holland was an anomaly in Europe. In addition, it was in the middle of the 80 years war when the pilgrims left it. A political war justified by religious differences.
True, but the reason that they left was the broad religious tolerance. They wanted the opposite. And the primary religious intolerance in England was caused by... the pilgrims that didn't leave (the British civil war was them over throwing the government to set up a religious military state.)
I wasn't critiquing your statements regarding the motivations of the pilgrims, but rather the broadness of the claim that Europe already had religious freedom at that time.
Fair enough... it had enough religious freedom to drive groups to come to America to ensure that what little there was was taken away
