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@scottalanmiller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
The point is unregulated languages are vastly worse than regulated ones. English is an example of it when it comes to both grammar and spelling, where you can even have idiotic teachers spit out grammar books in the 50s claiming "no split infinitives" and some people say "of course, that's totally true!"
But English DOES have an academy, and it caused many of those problems because it was the source of many.
No it does not. What is it?
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@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@scottalanmiller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
The point is unregulated languages are vastly worse than regulated ones. English is an example of it when it comes to both grammar and spelling, where you can even have idiotic teachers spit out grammar books in the 50s claiming "no split infinitives" and some people say "of course, that's totally true!"
But English DOES have an academy, and it caused many of those problems because it was the source of many.
No it does not.
It does, the US founded one in the 1700s.
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@scottalanmiller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@scottalanmiller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
The point is unregulated languages are vastly worse than regulated ones. English is an example of it when it comes to both grammar and spelling, where you can even have idiotic teachers spit out grammar books in the 50s claiming "no split infinitives" and some people say "of course, that's totally true!"
But English DOES have an academy, and it caused many of those problems because it was the source of many.
No it does not.
It does, the US founded one in the 1700s.
Are you talking about American Academy of Language and Belles Lettres? That hasn't been operational since the late 1700s.
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@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@scottalanmiller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
The point is unregulated languages are vastly worse than regulated ones. English is an example of it when it comes to both grammar and spelling, where you can even have idiotic teachers spit out grammar books in the 50s claiming "no split infinitives" and some people say "of course, that's totally true!"
But English DOES have an academy, and it caused many of those problems because it was the source of many.
No it does not. What is it?
Webster's Dictionary is the product of it. It's the official list of American English. It doesn't cover all language aspects, but many.
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@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@scottalanmiller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@scottalanmiller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
The point is unregulated languages are vastly worse than regulated ones. English is an example of it when it comes to both grammar and spelling, where you can even have idiotic teachers spit out grammar books in the 50s claiming "no split infinitives" and some people say "of course, that's totally true!"
But English DOES have an academy, and it caused many of those problems because it was the source of many.
No it does not.
It does, the US founded one in the 1700s.
Are you talking about American Academy of Language and Belles Lettres? That hasn't been operational since the late 1700s.
No, Merriam Webster, as an example, produces current works from it.
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@scottalanmiller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@scottalanmiller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@scottalanmiller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
The point is unregulated languages are vastly worse than regulated ones. English is an example of it when it comes to both grammar and spelling, where you can even have idiotic teachers spit out grammar books in the 50s claiming "no split infinitives" and some people say "of course, that's totally true!"
But English DOES have an academy, and it caused many of those problems because it was the source of many.
No it does not.
It does, the US founded one in the 1700s.
Are you talking about American Academy of Language and Belles Lettres? That hasn't been operational since the late 1700s.
No, Merriam Webster, as an example, produces current works from it.
That's a private company though.
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@scottalanmiller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@scottalanmiller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
The point is unregulated languages are vastly worse than regulated ones. English is an example of it when it comes to both grammar and spelling, where you can even have idiotic teachers spit out grammar books in the 50s claiming "no split infinitives" and some people say "of course, that's totally true!"
But English DOES have an academy, and it caused many of those problems because it was the source of many.
No it does not. What is it?
Webster's Dictionary is the product of it. It's the official list of American English. It doesn't cover all language aspects, but many.
Actually Noah Webster tried to do a pretty OK job, it was better than Samuel Johnson who tried to make it more complex by introducing false etymologies like turning iland into island.
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@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@scottalanmiller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@scottalanmiller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@scottalanmiller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
The point is unregulated languages are vastly worse than regulated ones. English is an example of it when it comes to both grammar and spelling, where you can even have idiotic teachers spit out grammar books in the 50s claiming "no split infinitives" and some people say "of course, that's totally true!"
But English DOES have an academy, and it caused many of those problems because it was the source of many.
No it does not.
It does, the US founded one in the 1700s.
Are you talking about American Academy of Language and Belles Lettres? That hasn't been operational since the late 1700s.
No, Merriam Webster, as an example, produces current works from it.
That's a private company though.
It is now, but it's touted as being the authority on what is and isn't an actual word of the English language.
Eventually twerking may become a proper word in the English language if it makes it into that book.
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@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@scottalanmiller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@scottalanmiller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@scottalanmiller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
The point is unregulated languages are vastly worse than regulated ones. English is an example of it when it comes to both grammar and spelling, where you can even have idiotic teachers spit out grammar books in the 50s claiming "no split infinitives" and some people say "of course, that's totally true!"
But English DOES have an academy, and it caused many of those problems because it was the source of many.
No it does not.
It does, the US founded one in the 1700s.
Are you talking about American Academy of Language and Belles Lettres? That hasn't been operational since the late 1700s.
No, Merriam Webster, as an example, produces current works from it.
That's a private company though.
That's how the US works
Everything from the government is presented as private companies.
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@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@scottalanmiller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@scottalanmiller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
The point is unregulated languages are vastly worse than regulated ones. English is an example of it when it comes to both grammar and spelling, where you can even have idiotic teachers spit out grammar books in the 50s claiming "no split infinitives" and some people say "of course, that's totally true!"
But English DOES have an academy, and it caused many of those problems because it was the source of many.
No it does not. What is it?
Webster's Dictionary is the product of it. It's the official list of American English. It doesn't cover all language aspects, but many.
Actually Noah Webster tried to do a pretty OK job, it was better than Samuel Johnson who tried to make it more complex by introducing false etymologies like turning iland into island.
Not really, he intentionally skewed the language to create a new standard that was different from the known language at the time. The result is the whole world thinks that Americans can't spell or speak properly.
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@scottalanmiller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
And, like Spanish, the academy has no authority. Conceptually language academies doesn't really make sense, because they have no authority. So they state what they want a language to be, but have no control over what it is.
They standardise things, in the same way all of the conflicting dictionaries and house styles do in English, that's the point. I mean sure you can write a book in pre-20th century reforms of German and they won't stop you but there's no point to do it. The French Academy has been trying to fix issues in its spelling for quite some time and introduced some other changes recently
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@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@scottalanmiller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
And, like Spanish, the academy has no authority. Conceptually language academies doesn't really make sense, because they have no authority. So they state what they want a language to be, but have no control over what it is.
They standardise things, in the same way all of the conflicting dictionaries and house styles do in English, that's the point. I mean sure you can write a book in pre-20th century reforms of German and they won't stop you but there's no point to do it. The French Academy has been trying to fix issues in its spelling for quite some time and introduced some other changes recently
Right, except they don't. In the US, the second largest Spanish speaking country, it's not followed, at all. That's like twice the population of Spain!
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@scottalanmiller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@scottalanmiller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@scottalanmiller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
The point is unregulated languages are vastly worse than regulated ones. English is an example of it when it comes to both grammar and spelling, where you can even have idiotic teachers spit out grammar books in the 50s claiming "no split infinitives" and some people say "of course, that's totally true!"
But English DOES have an academy, and it caused many of those problems because it was the source of many.
No it does not. What is it?
Webster's Dictionary is the product of it. It's the official list of American English. It doesn't cover all language aspects, but many.
Actually Noah Webster tried to do a pretty OK job, it was better than Samuel Johnson who tried to make it more complex by introducing false etymologies like turning iland into island.
Not really, he intentionally skewed the language to create a new standard that was different from the known language at the time. The result is the whole world thinks that Americans can't spell or speak properly.
By removing pointless silent letters yes he did. Back then the two languages weren't in the same level of contact they are now outside of port cities. Pre-telegraph as well, there was a case to be made for a national regular spelling and grammar. There was nationalistic reasons behind it, not just linguistic ones. Teddy Roosevelt tried to take it further. And not all of Webster's changes were accepted, and basically all of Teddy's were reversed by act of Congress, hilariously.
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@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@scottalanmiller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@scottalanmiller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@scottalanmiller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
The point is unregulated languages are vastly worse than regulated ones. English is an example of it when it comes to both grammar and spelling, where you can even have idiotic teachers spit out grammar books in the 50s claiming "no split infinitives" and some people say "of course, that's totally true!"
But English DOES have an academy, and it caused many of those problems because it was the source of many.
No it does not. What is it?
Webster's Dictionary is the product of it. It's the official list of American English. It doesn't cover all language aspects, but many.
Actually Noah Webster tried to do a pretty OK job, it was better than Samuel Johnson who tried to make it more complex by introducing false etymologies like turning iland into island.
Not really, he intentionally skewed the language to create a new standard that was different from the known language at the time. The result is the whole world thinks that Americans can't spell or speak properly.
By removing pointless silent letters yes he did. Back then the two languages weren't in the same level of contact they are now outside of port cities. Pre-telegraph as well, there was a case to be made for a national regular spelling and grammar. There was nationalistic reasons behind it, not just linguistic ones. Teddy Roosevelt tried to take it further. And not all of Webster's changes were accepted, and basically all of Teddy's were reversed by act of Congress, hilariously.
Which weird since Congress has no say in the language.
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@scottalanmiller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@scottalanmiller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
And, like Spanish, the academy has no authority. Conceptually language academies doesn't really make sense, because they have no authority. So they state what they want a language to be, but have no control over what it is.
They standardise things, in the same way all of the conflicting dictionaries and house styles do in English, that's the point. I mean sure you can write a book in pre-20th century reforms of German and they won't stop you but there's no point to do it. The French Academy has been trying to fix issues in its spelling for quite some time and introduced some other changes recently
Right, except they don't. In the US, the second largest Spanish speaking country, it's not followed, at all. That's like twice the population of Spain!
That happens with any language outside the typical realm of national control. If Spanish were an official language of the US that'd be different, they may not follow the Spanish crown but certainly would follow their own or at least hopefully something... then again, it's the US so probably not.
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@scottalanmiller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@scottalanmiller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@scottalanmiller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@scottalanmiller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
The point is unregulated languages are vastly worse than regulated ones. English is an example of it when it comes to both grammar and spelling, where you can even have idiotic teachers spit out grammar books in the 50s claiming "no split infinitives" and some people say "of course, that's totally true!"
But English DOES have an academy, and it caused many of those problems because it was the source of many.
No it does not. What is it?
Webster's Dictionary is the product of it. It's the official list of American English. It doesn't cover all language aspects, but many.
Actually Noah Webster tried to do a pretty OK job, it was better than Samuel Johnson who tried to make it more complex by introducing false etymologies like turning iland into island.
Not really, he intentionally skewed the language to create a new standard that was different from the known language at the time. The result is the whole world thinks that Americans can't spell or speak properly.
By removing pointless silent letters yes he did. Back then the two languages weren't in the same level of contact they are now outside of port cities. Pre-telegraph as well, there was a case to be made for a national regular spelling and grammar. There was nationalistic reasons behind it, not just linguistic ones. Teddy Roosevelt tried to take it further. And not all of Webster's changes were accepted, and basically all of Teddy's were reversed by act of Congress, hilariously.
Which weird since Congress has no say in the language.
Roosevelt had introduced 300 words to simplify, they're decent changes though there's still a lack of overall consistency to the language, there's never been a proper framework established. Nevertheless, Congress voted 142 to 25 (or there abouts) to officially not follow those changes. Some snuck through in non-official usages, one is "thru" like "drive thru"
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@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@scottalanmiller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
And, like Spanish, the academy has no authority. Conceptually language academies doesn't really make sense, because they have no authority. So they state what they want a language to be, but have no control over what it is.
They standardise things, in the same way all of the conflicting dictionaries and house styles do in English, that's the point. I mean sure you can write a book in pre-20th century reforms of German and they won't stop you but there's no point to do it. The French Academy has been trying to fix issues in its spelling for quite some time and introduced some other changes recently
I think the idea that the academies are official is overstated. The US has one, for example, but the language taught in the US is way off from even Mexico, which we are supposed to mimic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Academy_of_the_Spanish_Language
It isn't official and has no say. Anybody can start a language academy. I could start my own French academy right now. It would mean as much as this.
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@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@scottalanmiller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@scottalanmiller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@scottalanmiller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@scottalanmiller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
The point is unregulated languages are vastly worse than regulated ones. English is an example of it when it comes to both grammar and spelling, where you can even have idiotic teachers spit out grammar books in the 50s claiming "no split infinitives" and some people say "of course, that's totally true!"
But English DOES have an academy, and it caused many of those problems because it was the source of many.
No it does not. What is it?
Webster's Dictionary is the product of it. It's the official list of American English. It doesn't cover all language aspects, but many.
Actually Noah Webster tried to do a pretty OK job, it was better than Samuel Johnson who tried to make it more complex by introducing false etymologies like turning iland into island.
Not really, he intentionally skewed the language to create a new standard that was different from the known language at the time. The result is the whole world thinks that Americans can't spell or speak properly.
By removing pointless silent letters yes he did. Back then the two languages weren't in the same level of contact they are now outside of port cities. Pre-telegraph as well, there was a case to be made for a national regular spelling and grammar. There was nationalistic reasons behind it, not just linguistic ones. Teddy Roosevelt tried to take it further. And not all of Webster's changes were accepted, and basically all of Teddy's were reversed by act of Congress, hilariously.
Which weird since Congress has no say in the language.
Roosevelt had introduced 300 words to simplify, they're decent changes though there's still a lack of overall consistency to the language, there's never been a proper framework established. Nevertheless, Congress voted 142 to 25 (or there abouts) to officially not follow those changes. Some snuck through in non-official usages, one is "thru" like "drive thru"
Thru is used as a joke, though, through and through.
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@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@scottalanmiller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@tonyshowoff said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@scottalanmiller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
And, like Spanish, the academy has no authority. Conceptually language academies doesn't really make sense, because they have no authority. So they state what they want a language to be, but have no control over what it is.
They standardise things, in the same way all of the conflicting dictionaries and house styles do in English, that's the point. I mean sure you can write a book in pre-20th century reforms of German and they won't stop you but there's no point to do it. The French Academy has been trying to fix issues in its spelling for quite some time and introduced some other changes recently
Right, except they don't. In the US, the second largest Spanish speaking country, it's not followed, at all. That's like twice the population of Spain!
That happens with any language outside the typical realm of national control. If Spanish were an official language of the US that'd be different, they may not follow the Spanish crown but certainly would follow their own or at least hopefully something... then again, it's the US so probably not.
Spanish is
It's one of the few official languages within the US. -
What's odd is now working with so many Spanish speakers in different countries, we notice that there are a lot of differences, but consistently that American Spanish is way off. To the point of not always being understood. I've looked into some things to see if they are taught consistently around the, and checked all over the Spanish world and found that things that are somehow completely codified in American Spanish are not even understood in the broader Spanish speaking world.
So there is quite a bit of centralization, but not tied to the broader community.
