Hiring Disparity
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@scottalanmiller said:
@technobabble said:
A friend saw a post about IT techs that I posted and asked me what is an it? I had to explain IT duties could be: computer repair, networking, malware/AV cleanup, backup management etc.
That's shocking. That's up there with not knowing what a teacher or engineer is. Although, in reality, most people only pretend to know what an engineer is and don't actually know much about the field at all and would have no idea what an industrial engineer, manufacturing systems engineer, civil engineer, ceramics engineer or other fields do.
But a sad sad reality. In the 90s ASE was pushing hard to change the public's expectation of a mechanic (think Cooter on Dukes of Hazzard) to an Automotive Technician that using high tech tools and has the latest schooling on the latest vehicles.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
I define it as someone involved in management (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/management) ie "The process of dealing with or controlling things or people". In this case, the "thing" is IT.
I guess that either I'm not normal, or you're not normal, or the UK has a different definition to the US.
I've never met a person that wasn't trying to promote their own title that disagreed with the concept that a manager is a manager of people. Only in SMB IT where people are trying to promote a title that they themselves possesses have I never heard it even suggested that a manager of "things" would be called a manager. Especially in IT where a "manager of things" is called an administrator. Given that there is a specific term for managing IT devices and a specific one for managing people it's most dramatic in the IT field where it's so clear what they mean.
So why not just tell people you are a manager then rather than mentioning IT at all? In the US, at least, "manager" is a title for managing people, always. I've been a manager, it was nothing like working in IT. But I called myself a manager and people knew exactly what I did without any additional explanation. If I called myself a manager now, people would think that I did exactly the opposite of what I do.
The Oxford dictionary defines the word, not the job.
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Also, @scottalanmiller and @Minion-Queen's point about mangers being the least qualified at what it is the people who they manage do, is also spot on. I think something that bears some confusion is that many people feel if they are in a position of oversight of one kind or another, they are a manager. However, manager really implies that their job is management, which means people. This is one of those connotative vs denotative things. If you look at the denotation of management, as you did, sure, slap any word in front of it and technically it's not incorrect. However, look at the connotation and it's a different story.
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@thanksaj said:
I get where you're coming from, but Scott is right in this one. Managers manage people. Correct me if I'm wrong @scottalanmiller but would IT Director be a more appropriate title in this case for @Carnival-Boy ?
A Director manages a department. The rule of thumb would be that only managers in a department would report to a director of a department. Often directors do have direct reports, but if they only have direct reports they should use the term manager, not director. A director needs at least some indirect reports.
It's not super struct department to director mapping, but it's the general rule. Start from there and deviate as necessary. In a Fortune 100, for example, a director might require a budget of $100m+ and meet director rules. At a bank, for example, it is common that only Senior VPs would report to a Director. A Senior VP might have a direct report or two who are at their level but non-managers (like I was) but mostly VPs report to them. VPs would have more direct reports, but mostly AVPs report to them and so forth.
If you run an entire department including its managers, Director is an okay term to use. Anything less (I've been a "Director" with ~100 direct reports but no sub-managers) and you are in "is this a real title" territory that I would not venture into and there is a reason why even with 100 reports I don't keep "Director" on my resume because I didn't really meet the qualifications.
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Director is certainly a looser term than manager. That goes without saying. Each company has to define what a director is. Manager is something that you can say to anyone and they all have the same idea. But Director is part of executive management. So consider if you would be comfortable describing yourself as an "executive level manager" to see if director seems appropriate.
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What people often expect is that a Director of IT or a Director of Operations is at a certain executive level and does the same or nearly the same job role as a CIO or a COO, but is not the CIO or COO. This could be that they are simply a junior CIO/COO level. Or it might mean that the company is so large that a single CIO can't oversee all of the things that need to be done so have their own role split into many.
A Director would imply more than managing people and managers, but interfacing with the business like a CIO does. So a Director of IT would be expect to see an MBA more than seeing an MS IT, for example. Just like you do with CIO.
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Part of the other issue with most IT Jobs is you aren't wearing just one "hat" or title either, so it makes it even harder to describe what you do.
Example my full true title should be:
President
Managing Director
Helpdesk Manager
HelpDesk Dispatcher
L1
L2
Business Development Manager
Sales
Accounts Payable
Accounts Receivable
Human ResourcesI am sure I do more than that I just can't think of it right now and am tired just writing that out.
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@scottalanmiller said:
I've never met a person that wasn't trying to promote their own title that disagreed with the concept that a manager is a manager of people.
I'm not trying to promote anything. I manage people and I couldn't care less about job titles. I'm just telling you that in the UK this is not the definition.
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@Minion-Queen said:
Part of the other issue with most IT Jobs is you aren't wearing just one "hat" or title either, so it makes it even harder to describe what you do.
That's why it is important to have defined Generalist titles for IT Pros. The Specialists have these titles. Generalists often covet them and use them when not appropriate (helpdesk people using "System Admin" for example.) This causes no end of problems. There need to be good, standard, universal titles for Generalist IT Pros, mostly for those working in the SMB.
The problem still arises that the Generalist at company X with three years of experience and Generalist at company Y with three years of experience will be so vastly different that there is often no simply way to exchange them. Each company is so completely unique. Even if both companies are 65 people and have the same budgets. One might work on AD and Windows and have a ProSafe filewall and a flat network. The other might spend their days tweaking Cisco on their all Mac network without any servers. One might spend all day walking the halls talking to users, finding tweaks, making things smooth. The other might be putting out infrastructure fires and not even know what people do there.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
I'm not trying to promote anything. I manage people and I couldn't care less about job titles. I'm just telling you that in the UK this is not the definition.
So what are US managers called in the UK? What is the title for people who manage people as a profession?
What in the US is called a "management professional" or a "career manager."
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@scottalanmiller said:
Director is certainly a looser term than manager.
My understanding is that a Director is simply someone who is a member of the company's Board of Directors and doesn't relate to their actual role. They have to be declared to the government (companies house) and their names and titles are on public record. Not my area though, so I'm not claiming anything here.
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@scottalanmiller said:
What is the title for people who manage people as a profession?
I'm guessing there isn't one. We use the term Line Manager all the time, but that's not someone's job title, it's just their role.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
@scottalanmiller said:
Director is certainly a looser term than manager.
My understanding is that a Director is simply someone who is a member of the company's Board of Directors and doesn't relate to their actual role. They have to be declared to the government (companies house) and their names and titles are on public record. Not my area though, so I'm not claiming anything here.
That's called a Board Member. A company director isn't a board member. And I've worked much of my career for the UK. When, say, Barclays or HSBC lists their Directors, those are just normal executives and nowhere near the C suite or the board room. Many SMBs have "directors" and aren't even corporations with boards to have them on.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
@scottalanmiller said:
What is the title for people who manage people as a profession?
I'm guessing there isn't one. We use the term Line Manager all the time, but that's not someone's job title, it's just their role.
If someone asked someone what they did, and they said Line Manager, just because they don't receive business cards saying that doesn't mean it isn't their job title. I don't see how you can call that anything but a job title.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Carnival-Boy said:
@scottalanmiller said:
Director is certainly a looser term than manager.
My understanding is that a Director is simply someone who is a member of the company's Board of Directors and doesn't relate to their actual role. They have to be declared to the government (companies house) and their names and titles are on public record. Not my area though, so I'm not claiming anything here.
That's called a Board Member. A company director isn't a board member. And I've worked much of my career for the UK. When, say, Barclays or HSBC lists their Directors, those are just normal executives and nowhere near the C suite or the board room. Many SMBs have "directors" and aren't even corporations with boards to have them on.
Exactly.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
I'm guessing there isn't one. We use the term Line Manager all the time, but that's not someone's job title, it's just their role.
We use that too but only as less generic than a normal manager. That's a manager who is over a specific product line, for example.
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That's not to say that a Director is legally barred from being on a board, but there is nothing to tie them together either. Just as any employee has a legal right to be named a board member, even the janitor.
A Director might commonly be on an Executive Board, rather than the Board of Directors. It is awfully confusing that it is called a "Board of Directors" and then Directors are somewhere completely separate in the hierarchy.
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Fine, not my area like I said. I don't see IT Director being a common job title here at all. I've never seen it. My old boss was Technical Director, but he was a co-owner of the company.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
Fine, not my area like I said. I don't see IT Director being a common job title here at all. I've never seen it. My old boss was Technical Director, but he was a co-owner of the company.
In the US it is super common as a "fake" title that IT people give themselves in the smallest companies or that companies bestow upon IT pros who aren't good enough to make more money but they don't want them to quit. I've even seen a small business IT manager (loosely a manager, had two reports I think but was full time non-manager and not sure if he was really a manager or just their lead) get the title of "Director of Operations" as a fake title. Not a director nor in operations! At very most a part time manager.
Director of IT has become a joke of a title in the US, but it is super common and seems to be growing more and more. I bet if you got a survey of people in SW you'd find that something like 5% or more of SMB people use that title to mean "the lone IT guy doing helpdesk." It's often a flag for the very lowest IT jobs, rather than the highest.
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I've not seen "IT Director" in the UK, but a Directory within IT I've seen all over there. But real Directors with SVPs under them and hundreds or thousands of total staff with hundreds of millions in budgets.
