Writing a Cover Letter
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@coliver said:
@IRJ said:
@coliver said:
@IRJ said:
@thanksaj said:
I can almost guarantee that 19/20 candidates are applying simply because they feel they could do the job and don't really care what market it's in.Very true. Also I do zero research on a company unless I make it to the interview stage. Otherwise, its a waste of my time
I actually do research the company before applying. Mostly because of curiosity and general interest, I like to know what they make, who their clients are, etc... It is actually pretty cool to see how much is made in an area "local" to you. For instance I had no idea that Lockheed still had manufacturing up in Syracuse, NY until I applied to a position at that location.
I don't because I don't have to take the interview if I don't want to.
How many companies did you apply for when searching for a job? I have declined interviews before because I didnt like the company or manager's attitude.
Not many, I had a job lined up but wanted to see what else was out there. Probably 9-12.
How many interviewed you?
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@Carnival-Boy said:
@thanksaj said:
You could put in the ad that you are looking for someone who wants to work both SMB and manufacturing, and I can almost guarantee that 19/20 candidates are applying simply because they feel they could do the job and don't really care what market it's in. Maybe some do prefer SMB to enterprise. But you're looking for something very specific, and it's far too easy to lie on a cover letter. I think we've all done it. "Why do you want to work for this company?" You can put any of 100 things there, and you have no way of knowing what's true and what's not.
Yes, but I was answering a specific point IRJ made that people can't be expected to be bothered writing a covering letter because there are so many IT jobs they can apply for. So my point is that my job is fairly unusual and so if it is the kind of thing that interests you, you might be happy to spend a few minutes writing a covering letter. The mere fact that they have bothered to write a covering letter at all might therefore indicate that they are genuinely interested in working for an SMB manufacturer. It's about sending the right signals.
@Carnival-Boy said:
@thanksaj said:
You could put in the ad that you are looking for someone who wants to work both SMB and manufacturing, and I can almost guarantee that 19/20 candidates are applying simply because they feel they could do the job and don't really care what market it's in. Maybe some do prefer SMB to enterprise. But you're looking for something very specific, and it's far too easy to lie on a cover letter. I think we've all done it. "Why do you want to work for this company?" You can put any of 100 things there, and you have no way of knowing what's true and what's not.
Yes, but I was answering a specific point IRJ made that people can't be expected to be bothered writing a covering letter because there are so many IT jobs they can apply for. So my point is that my job is fairly unusual and so if it is the kind of thing that interests you, you might be happy to spend a few minutes writing a covering letter. The mere fact that they have bothered to write a covering letter at all might therefore indicate that they are genuinely interested in working for an SMB manufacturer. It's about sending the right signals.
I think @thanksaj and @coliver did a good job addressing this point. Most people don't care what the company actually does. They apply for the position
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@IRJ said:
Most people don't care what the company actually does. They apply for the position
Fair enough. I'd never really thought of it that way. @scottalanmiller started a thread the other week asking what was the perfect company to work for, which got me thinking. I never thought that for most people the answer to his question was "I don't care".
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@coliver said:
@IRJ said:
@thanksaj said:
I can almost guarantee that 19/20 candidates are applying simply because they feel they could do the job and don't really care what market it's in.Very true. Also I do zero research on a company unless I make it to the interview stage. Otherwise, its a waste of my time
I actually do research the company before applying. Mostly because of curiosity and general interest, I like to know what they make, who their clients are, etc... It is actually pretty cool to see how much is made in an area "local" to you. For instance I had no idea that Lockheed still had manufacturing up in Syracuse, NY until I applied to a position at that location.
If it's where I'm thinking it is, I used to drive by there all the time. I remember there being a huge Lockheed building on Electronics Parkway in Liverpool. (just looked it up, and yup, that's it!)
I know what you mean about seeing who some of their clients might be, etc. However, the only time I do research before getting an interview is if I want to see their reputation, etc. and I generally do that before applying, but that's a rare situation.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
@thanksaj said:
You could put in the ad that you are looking for someone who wants to work both SMB and manufacturing, and I can almost guarantee that 19/20 candidates are applying simply because they feel they could do the job and don't really care what market it's in. Maybe some do prefer SMB to enterprise. But you're looking for something very specific, and it's far too easy to lie on a cover letter. I think we've all done it. "Why do you want to work for this company?" You can put any of 100 things there, and you have no way of knowing what's true and what's not.
Yes, but I was answering a specific point IRJ made that people can't be expected to be bothered writing a covering letter because there are so many IT jobs they can apply for. So my point is that my job is fairly unusual and so if it is the kind of thing that interests you, you might be happy to spend a few minutes writing a covering letter. The mere fact that they have bothered to write a covering letter at all might therefore indicate that they are genuinely interested in working for an SMB manufacturer. It's about sending the right signals.
I don't quite understand how is your position unique? The majority of SMB companies have the same metaphors, most are windows shops with a domain and workstations for office users, and POS or data entry machines for shop floor. Some have on-site ERP/MRP system, some don't.... unless you explain it in your job posting I don't see how anyone would assume your company is different then the 12 others advertising in the same way. I don't mean this as offensive just being realistic.
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@IRJ said:
@coliver said:
@IRJ said:
@coliver said:
@IRJ said:
@thanksaj said:
I can almost guarantee that 19/20 candidates are applying simply because they feel they could do the job and don't really care what market it's in.Very true. Also I do zero research on a company unless I make it to the interview stage. Otherwise, its a waste of my time
I actually do research the company before applying. Mostly because of curiosity and general interest, I like to know what they make, who their clients are, etc... It is actually pretty cool to see how much is made in an area "local" to you. For instance I had no idea that Lockheed still had manufacturing up in Syracuse, NY until I applied to a position at that location.
I don't because I don't have to take the interview if I don't want to.
How many companies did you apply for when searching for a job? I have declined interviews before because I didnt like the company or manager's attitude.
Not many, I had a job lined up but wanted to see what else was out there. Probably 9-12.
How many interviewed you?
4 of them, Lockheed did not (I was just getting out of school at the time so that is understandable). The rest were SMB L1 positions.
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@coliver said:
I don't quite understand how is your position unique?
I said above, I don't see many SMB IT jobs being advertised round here. We're not unique, but we're unusual. And by unusual I mean if you search on Monster right now, we will be the only job advertised in our area that isn't either working for an IT company or for a large enterprise.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
@thanksaj said:
You could put in the ad that you are looking for someone who wants to work both SMB and manufacturing, and I can almost guarantee that 19/20 candidates are applying simply because they feel they could do the job and don't really care what market it's in. Maybe some do prefer SMB to enterprise. But you're looking for something very specific, and it's far too easy to lie on a cover letter. I think we've all done it. "Why do you want to work for this company?" You can put any of 100 things there, and you have no way of knowing what's true and what's not.
Yes, but I was answering a specific point IRJ made that people can't be expected to be bothered writing a covering letter because there are so many IT jobs they can apply for. So my point is that my job is fairly unusual and so if it is the kind of thing that interests you, you might be happy to spend a few minutes writing a covering letter. The mere fact that they have bothered to write a covering letter at all might therefore indicate that they are genuinely interested in working for an SMB manufacturer. It's about sending the right signals.
Yes, but how can you be sure you're getting the right signals? You might filter out some people who just don't want to go to "that much trouble", but you'll still get tons of people who write the letter just to make you happy and still aren't what you're looking for. I think that if you are going to get the kind of person you want, you need to interview EVERYONE that applies, period.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
@IRJ said:
Most people don't care what the company actually does. They apply for the position
Fair enough. I'd never really thought of it that way. @scottalanmiller started a thread the other week asking what was the perfect company to work for, which got me thinking. I never thought that for most people the answer to his question was "I don't care".
I think everyone has a dream company to work for. I just dont think its in manufacturing for most IT people.
Mine is a fishing company which is probably even rarer than SMB manufacturing
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@coliver said:
@Carnival-Boy said:
@thanksaj said:
You could put in the ad that you are looking for someone who wants to work both SMB and manufacturing, and I can almost guarantee that 19/20 candidates are applying simply because they feel they could do the job and don't really care what market it's in. Maybe some do prefer SMB to enterprise. But you're looking for something very specific, and it's far too easy to lie on a cover letter. I think we've all done it. "Why do you want to work for this company?" You can put any of 100 things there, and you have no way of knowing what's true and what's not.
Yes, but I was answering a specific point IRJ made that people can't be expected to be bothered writing a covering letter because there are so many IT jobs they can apply for. So my point is that my job is fairly unusual and so if it is the kind of thing that interests you, you might be happy to spend a few minutes writing a covering letter. The mere fact that they have bothered to write a covering letter at all might therefore indicate that they are genuinely interested in working for an SMB manufacturer. It's about sending the right signals.
I don't quite understand how is your position unique? The majority of SMB companies have the same metaphors, most are windows shops with a domain and workstations for office users, and POS or data entry machines for shop floor. Some have on-site ERP/MRP system, some don't.... unless you explain it in your job posting I don't see how anyone would assume your company is different then the 12 others advertising in the same way. I don't mean this as offensive just being realistic.
SMB is the same story no matter what. No money and management that doesnt understand IT
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@Carnival-Boy said:
@coliver said:
I don't quite understand how is your position unique?
I said above, I don't see many SMB IT jobs being advertised round here. We're not unique, but we're unusual. And by unusual I mean if you search on Monster right now, we will be the only job advertised in our area that isn't either working for an IT company or for a large enterprise.
Ah I see, thanks for clarifying. Although it really isn't that unusual either, just rare in your area, if you were saying that the IT department managed an completely automated manufacturing floor then I would say that is unusual/unique. But really that is just semantics. SMBs are all almost identical in the technical metaphors (infrastructure) that are present.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
@IRJ said:
Most people don't care what the company actually does. They apply for the position
Fair enough. I'd never really thought of it that way. @scottalanmiller started a thread the other week asking what was the perfect company to work for, which got me thinking. I never thought that for most people the answer to his question was "I don't care".
As a rule, people apply for the position because either they like the position or they like the company. People may not apply for a job if a company has a bad reputation, but look at Spiceworks. Do you really think the people in accounting care about the software and what it does for IT Pros? No. They care about the numbers and finances. People care about their job and the work environment. Rarely do people care about what the company actually does, at least in the business sector. You start talking non-profits and charities, it's a little different.
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Well, this has turned out to be a really interesting thread. I'll confess, I'm crap at recruiting. Dealing with human beings isn't my forte. So this has given me lots to think about. I still don't see why anyone would have an issue writing a covering letter but I'll try and be a bit more sympathetic to those that don't. Maybe asking them why they didn't would be a good interview question, what do you think?
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@Carnival-Boy said:
Well, this has turned out to be a really interesting thread. I'll confess, I'm crap at recruiting. Dealing with human beings isn't my forte. So this has given me lots to think about. I still don't see why anyone would have an issue writing a covering letter but I'll try and be a bit more sympathetic to those that don't. Maybe asking them why they didn't would be a good interview question, what do you think?
I think it would be a better post interview question. One asked as they are walking out that doesn't have an effect on hiring. I can tell you that they probably didn't submit one because your ad was one of 20-30 that they had applied to that week..
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@Carnival-Boy said:
Well, this has turned out to be a really interesting thread. I'll confess, I'm crap at recruiting. Dealing with human beings isn't my forte. So this has given me lots to think about. I still don't see why anyone would have an issue writing a covering letter but I'll try and be a bit more sympathetic to those that don't. Maybe asking them why they didn't would be a good interview question, what do you think?
No, because it's an awkward question. It puts them on the spot in a way that they will feel like they can't win no matter what they say. That's how I see it. What you need to do in this hunt for a new employee is establish values. What I mean by that is determine what's the most important thing for the applicant to have? Second most important? Third, and so on. If it came down to two candidates where one was less qualified technically but more eager about SMB and manufacturing vs a much stronger candidate technically but for whom they didn't care what the industry was, who would you choose? It sounds like you haven't really determined what criteria to measure by yet and that you almost might be using the cover letters to help you figure that out. Just an observation. Hope it all works out well for you!
Thanks,
A.J. -
@coliver said:
@Carnival-Boy said:
Well, this has turned out to be a really interesting thread. I'll confess, I'm crap at recruiting. Dealing with human beings isn't my forte. So this has given me lots to think about. I still don't see why anyone would have an issue writing a covering letter but I'll try and be a bit more sympathetic to those that don't. Maybe asking them why they didn't would be a good interview question, what do you think?
I think it would be a better post interview question. One asked as they are walking out that doesn't have an effect on hiring. I can tell you that they probably didn't submit one because your ad was one of 20-30 that they had applied to that week..
Exactly. If you really are hung up on requiring a cover letter, I would include in the ad who they should address it to, such as you, and give them a couple questions to answer as part of their letter. The other reason I hate cover letters is because I never know what the employer is looking for in a cover letter. If you give them questions to answer as part of a cover letter, you will get much stronger results.
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@thanksaj said:
@Carnival-Boy said:
Well, this has turned out to be a really interesting thread. I'll confess, I'm crap at recruiting. Dealing with human beings isn't my forte. So this has given me lots to think about. I still don't see why anyone would have an issue writing a covering letter but I'll try and be a bit more sympathetic to those that don't. Maybe asking them why they didn't would be a good interview question, what do you think?
No, because it's an awkward question. It puts them on the spot in a way that they will feel like they can't win no matter what they say. That's how I see it. What you need to do in this hunt for a new employee is establish values. What I mean by that is determine what's the most important thing for the applicant to have? Second most important? Third, and so on. If it came down to two candidates where one was less qualified technically but more eager about SMB and manufacturing vs a much stronger candidate technically but for whom they didn't care what the industry was, who would you choose? It sounds like you haven't really determined what criteria to measure by yet and that you almost might be using the cover letters to help you figure that out. Just an observation. Hope it all works out well for you!
You don't have the make this clear during the interview process either, this is private criteria that they should meet by just "being themselves".... as much as I hate that saying.
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@coliver said:
@thanksaj said:
@Carnival-Boy said:
Well, this has turned out to be a really interesting thread. I'll confess, I'm crap at recruiting. Dealing with human beings isn't my forte. So this has given me lots to think about. I still don't see why anyone would have an issue writing a covering letter but I'll try and be a bit more sympathetic to those that don't. Maybe asking them why they didn't would be a good interview question, what do you think?
No, because it's an awkward question. It puts them on the spot in a way that they will feel like they can't win no matter what they say. That's how I see it. What you need to do in this hunt for a new employee is establish values. What I mean by that is determine what's the most important thing for the applicant to have? Second most important? Third, and so on. If it came down to two candidates where one was less qualified technically but more eager about SMB and manufacturing vs a much stronger candidate technically but for whom they didn't care what the industry was, who would you choose? It sounds like you haven't really determined what criteria to measure by yet and that you almost might be using the cover letters to help you figure that out. Just an observation. Hope it all works out well for you!
You don't have the make this clear during the interview process either, this is private criteria that they should meet by just "being themselves".... as much as I hate that saying.
I agree. Something like motivation, for example. If you have to ask someone to tell you about their motivation, then they don't have it. When you see people who are motivated and driven, you can tell from their resume, by the way they talk, and not just what they talk about. Ask them to describe some projects they've done on their own and for work. Do they get excited when they talk? Do they talk about the little details? Indicators like this are way more meaningful to me than any direct answer to a direct question.
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@coliver said:
I can tell you that they probably didn't submit one because your ad was one of 20-30 that they had applied to that week..
Pretty much
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@Carnival-Boy said:
Well, this has turned out to be a really interesting thread. I'll confess, I'm crap at recruiting. Dealing with human beings isn't my forte. So this has given me lots to think about. I still don't see why anyone would have an issue writing a covering letter but I'll try and be a bit more sympathetic to those that don't. Maybe asking them why they didn't would be a good interview question, what do you think?
You aren't crap at all. You are hiring for the position so its really your call. I personally don't submit cover letters on applications and I explained why I don't do it. The point I was trying to make was look at the resume and experience of a person. Don't be a knit picker about the small things.
