College Degrees: Worth the Expense?
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@Carnival-Boy said:
In the UK, most IT jobs are offered through employment agencies and most agencies refuse applicants without degrees., regardless of ability or experience I think that's nuts, but it's the way it is.
We also operate an old boys network here. So a lot of top jobs are only available to mates who went to the same private school or Russell group university they went to. Contacts are more important than experience or ability.
I've definitely got better jobs and more money than I perhaps deserved simply because I studied Economics at a top University, even though my knowledge of the Laffer Curve doesn't really help when a server goes down.
While it makes sense, the whole "birds of a feather flock together" type of thing, it amazes me how many people who are completely unqualified for a given job get the job just because they know someone or, like you said, went to the same school, etc.
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the average for the 2012-2013 calendar year was $9.180. Even if you assume, say, $5000 of that can be cut out if you live at home, you’re still looking at $8,400.
I don't understand the math here.
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@Dashrender said:
the average for the 2012-2013 calendar year was $9.180. Even if you assume, say, $5000 of that can be cut out if you live at home, you’re still looking at $8,400.
I don't understand the math here.
One sec, lemme look.
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I've always been a fan of this blogger:
http://www.jamesaltucher.com/2011/01/10-more-reasons-why-parents-should-not-send-their-kids-to-college/ -
@Dashrender said:
the average for the 2012-2013 calendar year was $9.180. Even if you assume, say, $5000 of that can be cut out if you live at home, you’re still looking at $8,400.
I don't understand the math here.
Ok, that was poorly worded. It's about $9,200/year, so for 2 years it's $18,400. At a $5,000 savings/year, that's less $10,000, making it $8,400. Gonna tweak the wording now.
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I'd say this is up in the air right now. If you can get one cheaply, go for it. If not, your degree might not be worth the cost in the long run.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
I've always been a fan of this blogger:
http://www.jamesaltucher.com/2011/01/10-more-reasons-why-parents-should-not-send-their-kids-to-college/That was a really good article.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
In the UK, most IT jobs are offered through employment agencies and most agencies refuse applicants without degrees., regardless of ability or experience I think that's nuts, but it's the way it is.
A lot of people feel that it is like that in the US too but there are so many jobs that even if "most" require a degree it doesn't really hold you back the way that people assume. There are so few people without degrees that there is no shortage of work for them.
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@Nic said:
I'd say this is up in the air right now. If you can get one cheaply, go for it. If not, your degree might not be worth the cost in the long run.
In IT, even if your degree is free the time lost and the education lost on going to college (because you learn so little, so slowly) is often a negative. The cost of the degree itself is often a penalty on top of that.
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I will say that I didn't have a challenging or rewarding academic experience until I started my Master's degree. Everything up until that point felt like busy work and just going through the paces. What did I learn in undergrad? How to teach other people what the professor wanted to hear. That was the entire take away of my college experience. I spent more time in front of students going over what the professor was trying to teach then I did actually sitting in a classroom.
If I were wiser three years ago I would have skipped the Master's program and spent that money on certifications. Now I'm stuck with ~$60k (plus interest) worth of debt that I need to pay off over the next five years instead of investing it into myself and my career. (and my community, although that is another rant entirely)
On top of that when I go to apply for jobs if they see I have some post-grad education I immediately become "over-qualified"... regardless of whether I have experience in that position or not. (My current title doesn't help either)
If I were to talk to 18 year old me I would tell him to skip the college and get an internship.
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@coliver said:
I will say that I didn't have a challenging or rewarding academic experience until I started my Master's degree. Everything up until that point felt like busy work and just going through the paces. What did I learn in undergrad? How to teach other people what the professor wanted to hear. That was the entire take away of my college experience. I spent more time in front of students going over what the professor was trying to teach then I did actually sitting in a classroom.
If I were wiser three years ago I would have skipped the Master's program and spent that money on certifications. Now I'm stuck with ~$60k (plus interest) worth of debt that I need to pay off over the next five years instead of investing it into myself and my career. (and my community, although that is another rant entirely)
On top of that when I go to apply for jobs if they see I have some post-grad education I immediately become "over-qualified"... regardless of whether I have experience in that position or not. (My current title doesn't help either)
If I were to talk to 18 year old me I would tell him to skip the college and get an internship.
That was my reason for going to college. There was a class that included an internship. Literally the only reason I went was for that one class. Sucks you had to be a sophmore to take it. What a waste.
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@ajstringham My undergrad didn't have an internship until the capstone/senior year. It is telling that a year after I graduated the academic in charge of my program was fired and it was closed...
RIT (Rochester Institute of Technology) had a really interesting internship program, called a co-op, which was required for all tech students starting their sophomore year. It was a 10 week long internship that the majority of students were offered a full time job after their completed their degree and during summers. For a company to participate in the co-op though they had to agree not the headhunt the student until they had graduated (at least from what an undergrad-adviser told me). As a post-grad student this option wasn't available to me.
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@coliver said:
@ajstringham My undergrad didn't have an internship until the capstone/senior year. It is telling that a year after I graduated the academic in charge of my program was fired and it was closed...
RIT (Rochester Institute of Technology) had a really interesting internship program, called a co-op, which was required for all tech students starting their sophomore year. It was a 10 week long internship that the majority of students were offered a full time job after their completed their degree and during summers. For a company to participate in the co-op though they had to agree not the headhunt the student until they had graduated (at least from what an undergrad-adviser told me). As a post-grad student this option wasn't available to me.
I'm at RIT now. RIT's coop program is an attempt to mimic the older one at Kettering University in Flint, MI. The two consider themselves head to head competitors in the engineering space.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@coliver said:
@ajstringham My undergrad didn't have an internship until the capstone/senior year. It is telling that a year after I graduated the academic in charge of my program was fired and it was closed...
RIT (Rochester Institute of Technology) had a really interesting internship program, called a co-op, which was required for all tech students starting their sophomore year. It was a 10 week long internship that the majority of students were offered a full time job after their completed their degree and during summers. For a company to participate in the co-op though they had to agree not the headhunt the student until they had graduated (at least from what an undergrad-adviser told me). As a post-grad student this option wasn't available to me.
I'm at RIT now. RIT's coop program is an attempt to mimic the older one at Kettering University in Flint, MI. The two consider themselves head to head competitors in the engineering space.
Either way it seems to be a very effective means to get real world experience while in college, allowing the student to get the best of both worlds.
One of my fellow grad students did his coop with Meraki before they were bought by Cisco. He was hired by them after graduation and when he let them know he wanted to get his Master's (and doctorate) they offered to pay for it if he could do it while working. He was explaining his doctoral research proposal to me and it was fairly interesting although pretty far over my head.
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@coliver said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@coliver said:
@ajstringham My undergrad didn't have an internship until the capstone/senior year. It is telling that a year after I graduated the academic in charge of my program was fired and it was closed...
RIT (Rochester Institute of Technology) had a really interesting internship program, called a co-op, which was required for all tech students starting their sophomore year. It was a 10 week long internship that the majority of students were offered a full time job after their completed their degree and during summers. For a company to participate in the co-op though they had to agree not the headhunt the student until they had graduated (at least from what an undergrad-adviser told me). As a post-grad student this option wasn't available to me.
I'm at RIT now. RIT's coop program is an attempt to mimic the older one at Kettering University in Flint, MI. The two consider themselves head to head competitors in the engineering space.
Either way it seems to be a very effective means to get real world experience while in college, allowing the student to get the best of both worlds.
One of my fellow grad students did his coop with Meraki before they were bought by Cisco. He was hired by them after graduation and when he let them know he wanted to get his Master's (and doctorate) they offered to pay for it if he could do it while working. He was explaining his doctoral research proposal to me and it was fairly interesting although pretty far over my head.
If a company cares enough about an employee to offer to pay for their training and/or education, that's a good sign.
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@coliver said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@coliver said:
@ajstringham My undergrad didn't have an internship until the capstone/senior year. It is telling that a year after I graduated the academic in charge of my program was fired and it was closed...
RIT (Rochester Institute of Technology) had a really interesting internship program, called a co-op, which was required for all tech students starting their sophomore year. It was a 10 week long internship that the majority of students were offered a full time job after their completed their degree and during summers. For a company to participate in the co-op though they had to agree not the headhunt the student until they had graduated (at least from what an undergrad-adviser told me). As a post-grad student this option wasn't available to me.
I'm at RIT now. RIT's coop program is an attempt to mimic the older one at Kettering University in Flint, MI. The two consider themselves head to head competitors in the engineering space.
Either way it seems to be a very effective means to get real world experience while in college, allowing the student to get the best of both worlds.
One of my fellow grad students did his coop with Meraki before they were bought by Cisco. He was hired by them after graduation and when he let them know he wanted to get his Master's (and doctorate) they offered to pay for it if he could do it while working. He was explaining his doctoral research proposal to me and it was fairly interesting although pretty far over my head.
Almost as good as skipping college and getting an employer to pay for all of it
Even with good intern and coop programs, you can normally get the same opportunities without college, often during high school, and be years ahead without the cost. Later in a career, it is standard for companies to pay for college while working. So the opportunity to do it completely free, top to bottom, without compromising the start of career date, generating debt or being behind can easily exist. -
@ajstringham said:
If a company cares enough about an employee to offer to pay for their training and/or education, that's a good sign.
That's standard in the Fortune 1000.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@ajstringham said:
If a company cares enough about an employee to offer to pay for their training and/or education, that's a good sign.
That's standard in the Fortune 1000.
Yeah, but most of us don't work at Fortune 1000 companies.
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@ajstringham said:
Yeah, but most of us don't work at Fortune 1000 companies.
Most people actually do. And, for example, you do.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@ajstringham said:
Yeah, but most of us don't work at Fortune 1000 companies.
Most people actually do. And, for example, you do.
Yeah, I know. Still, training budgets seem like a dream to most IT people that I see.
