Password Security?
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@Carnival-Boy said:
Now, let's say you convince me of the risks. This brings me to the big problem I have with resetting a user password. People say "just reset it and let them know what it is and force them to change it when they logon." OK, how do I let them know? Some people say e-mail it to them.
How are you getting passwords to them now? Whatever works today should continue to work.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
People say writing user passwords down is insecure. Well, I write them down in the same place I write the Domain Admin password, so that is irrelevant. If someone hacked in to my Keepass database, getting hold of user passwords is the least of our worries.
Why is the domain admin password written down? Is this a break-glass system for turning over admin access to a third party? I don't know the reasoning here, but this sounds bad. And using it as logic that lesser vulnerabilities aren't that bad makes it far worse. You have a huge, unnecessary risk (potential of exposed admin password) and use it to excuse the risk of lesser exposure (access to everyone's passwords which, in theory, together are just as bad.)
It's actually worse getting all of them, though, because someone CAN act as the admin to cover their tracks but can assume the identity of the end users to make it nearly impossible to detect. Because they don't need to reset their passwords they are able to use the domain admin secretly in a way that they could not if the other was not available. Getting both magnifies the risk to the company (keeps you from detecting the breach) and puts the users themselves personally at risk (their personal identifies are compromised) and, if this was the US, puts the IT team at risk (users were put at risk and compromised.)
We don't write down any of these. No need to. Needing to reset passwords is a critical alerting system to alert users to the compromising of their accounts.
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@scottalanmiller said:
How are you getting passwords to them now? Whatever works today should continue to work.
They are given it as part of their induction when they join the company. But that's not practical on a day to day level.
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@scottalanmiller said:
Why is the domain admin password written down? Is this a break-glass system for turning over admin access to a third party?
Essentially, yes. I've read tons of stories of networks getting compromised, usually as part of a penetration test. I haven't actually done a pen test here, but I've no doubt that our network could get compromised. What I haven't heard though, is networks getting compromised via a Keepass database (or similar password management tool). Those products seem pretty robust. That doesn't appear to be the weak link in our security.
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Also, I could actually forget the domain admin password. I'm not getting any younger!
Without wishing to sidetrack the thread too much: if you don't write the Domain Administrator password down, and only have an IT staff of one, what happens if that person dies or is terminated or otherwise becomes unavailable. Physically resetting the password? Is that best practice? It seems messy to me.
Also, you're an MSP aren't you? How do manage client domains if you don't write down any passwords?
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What prevents the users from calling you when you reset their password? You could leave them a note something to the effect "I needed to login as you, your password was reset - please call me to get the new information"
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Another "reason" I see is when you spin their password, their phone suddenly starts popping errors. When this is done because someone is out of town, how do you get them to log in and set their new password?
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@Dashrender said:
What prevents the users from calling you when you reset their password? You could leave them a note something to the effect "I needed to login as you, your password was reset - please call me to get the new information"
I'm not always around. People work 24/7.
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@JaredBusch said:
Another "reason" I see is when you spin their password, their phone suddenly starts popping errors. When this is done because someone is out of town, how do you get them to log in and set their new password?
Can they do it on their phones using OWA?
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Carnival-Boy said:
Now, let's say you convince me of the risks. This brings me to the big problem I have with resetting a user password. People say "just reset it and let them know what it is and force them to change it when they logon." OK, how do I let them know? Some people say e-mail it to them.
How are you getting passwords to them now? Whatever works today should continue to work.
This is what I have done before at my last job. It doesn't actually reset the users password just generates a password based of the hash of there email and last four of social. I just had a excel sheet (encrypted) of what passwords are to be reset to when they are reset. Users would have to go to another persons computer and go to the internet to generate this. Though I think some eventually memorized their "reset" password. they would have to change it at next logon.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
@JaredBusch said:
Another "reason" I see is when you spin their password, their phone suddenly starts popping errors. When this is done because someone is out of town, how do you get them to log in and set their new password?
Can they do it on their phones using OWA?
Nope. Has to be done from a domain joined computer.
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@JaredBusch said:
Another "reason" I see is when you spin their password, their phone suddenly starts popping errors. When this is done because someone is out of town, how do you get them to log in and set their new password?
Depends on the work environment but, unless they are FLSA exempt the HR standard anymore is to not allow email outside working hours for them, as even if they choose to work on their own or are asked by their boss to check their email they still have to be paid for that time as a exempt employee. There have been law suits over this.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
@scottalanmiller said:
How are you getting passwords to them now? Whatever works today should continue to work.
They are given it as part of their induction when they join the company. But that's not practical on a day to day level.
With a temp password, you can always give it in the same manner. It's a one time and you know when it has been used because it gets reset. Everyone needs a temp one now and then or a reset system. That's fine. But it should be generated from the IT side and the end user should always know if it has been used before (they would be unable to log in.)
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@Carnival-Boy said:
@scottalanmiller said:
Why is the domain admin password written down? Is this a break-glass system for turning over admin access to a third party?
Essentially, yes. I've read tons of stories of networks getting compromised, usually as part of a penetration test. I haven't actually done a pen test here, but I've no doubt that our network could get compromised. What I haven't heard though, is networks getting compromised via a Keepass database (or similar password management tool). Those products seem pretty robust. That doesn't appear to be the weak link in our security.
Keepass is pretty secure. But how it is used is what matters. Are you the only one with access to it? If so, isn't that a point of fragility? If not, that's a lot of password exposure. Are you confident that no one is writing down the Keepass password?
Keepass is great, I just wouldn't keep the one master domain password there.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
Also, I could actually forget the domain admin password. I'm not getting any younger!
Without wishing to sidetrack the thread too much: if you don't write the Domain Administrator password down, and only have an IT staff of one, what happens if that person dies or is terminated or otherwise becomes unavailable.
I'm of the opinion that there should never be only one domain admin. There should be someone, somewhere (could be the attorney) who keeps a backup account who is never, ever allowed to use it unless to terminate you or to deal with your demise. It's effectively a break-glass.
An organization much larger simply has a domain admin team. It's easy when you are bigger. But the CEO or Corporate Counsel or someone very senior, very trusted and very not involved should have a means to gain access in case of emergency.
We have an emergency break-glass that goes through a third party to get a sealed password for a one time emergency. We would have to reset the glass afterwards. But there is no casual way to get that access. You'd need a conspiracy to do it.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
Also, you're an MSP aren't you? How do manage client domains if you don't write down any passwords?
Sometimes we have to, but we do as few as possible and we never keep people's passwords. We try our best to have user accounts on client systems, not shared accounts.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
@Dashrender said:
What prevents the users from calling you when you reset their password? You could leave them a note something to the effect "I needed to login as you, your password was reset - please call me to get the new information"
I'm not always around. People work 24/7.
Why do you need to log in "as them"? If they know you will be working on it, and specifically need to be logged in as them to make the fix (say to their profile), then you can prep them by telling them, if you are not around when I make this change I will reset your password. This will break your phone's email until you change the password again and reset it on your phone as well."
Are there reasons you would need to be on a user's computer where they wouldn't be aware of it? And if so, do you really need to log in as them? If so, that sounds shifty to me.
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How does your break-glass system work? I'm not sure whether it's a good idea to publish my security policy on a public forum, but sod it. I may delete this post in a couple of days:
I have 3 Domain Admin accounts. One is for my use. One is used by our MSP (which they write down, I don't know where they write it down exactly), and one is for emergency use (eg I get run over by a bus). The emergency one is stored in Keepass. Two other people have access to the Keepass database, and the Keepass password is written down (yes, it is written down!) and stored in the safe.
I used to just store the Domain Admin password in the safe, but it occurred to me that we have lots of other accounts that would be a real pain to recover if I ever disappeared. So it seemed better to just give my emergency users access to my Keepass file - that way they have everything.
If you use your attorney (as in your example), how do they remember the password without writing it down?
The Domain Admin accounts are configured to e-mail me whenever they are used, so if they are ever used when I'm not expecting them to be, it immediately arouses my suspicion and I may go into lock-down mode.
I'd be interested in any improvements to this. I don't like writing anything down, but I just haven't figured out a way of working without it (yet) and nothing on this thread has so far demonstrated how I can get away without writing anything down.
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In a smaller environment, there can be lots of reasons why logging in as users would be desired, if not desirable. There is little other way to really test setup, for example. If you have power users, you probably never need this. Internally at NTG, for example, you never need to log in as someone else, ever. Because we can move icons around for ourselves and do other basic tasks. We know how to screen share when that is needed.
Non-technical end users very often need a degree of hand holding that actually results in doing things on their behalf. While that can be automated and done in a way that does not require a password, it is extremely hard. The smaller the environment, the more of a pain it is to work around. The issue that @Carnival-Boy is facing is real, the need to log in as them very commonly does exist. It's not good, but it is real and sadly there is no good way around this on Windows.
If this was Linux, the solution is simple. This is really a combination of Windows limitations combined with user deficiencies.
