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    • J
      JasGot last edited by

      We use only Vivotek https://www.vivotek.com/
      Server software is free for Vivotek cameras, $35 license fee for other brand cameras. Love them.

      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
      • travisdh1
        travisdh1 @VoIP_n00b last edited by

        @voip_n00b said in Looking for Security camera options:

        I have no experience with them but I keep seeing hikvision everywhere.

        https://us.hikvision.com/en

        I see those everywhere as well. I think because they're cheap. I was very annoyed by the only system I ever worked with (required IE, 8 years ago now, but still, yuck.)

        V J 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
        • V
          VoIP_n00b @travisdh1 last edited by VoIP_n00b

          @travisdh1 Do they run LVM?

          travisdh1 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
          • travisdh1
            travisdh1 @VoIP_n00b last edited by

            @voip_n00b said in Looking for Security camera options:

            @travisdh1 Do they run LVM?

            I forget what those HikVision cameras called their software. Probably something like that just so I'd always be confusing it with Logical Volume Manager.

            J 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
            • J
              JasGot @travisdh1 last edited by

              @travisdh1 IVMS4200

              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
              • J
                JasGot @travisdh1 last edited by

                @travisdh1 said in Looking for Security camera options:

                @voip_n00b said in Looking for Security camera options:

                I have no experience with them but I keep seeing hikvision everywhere.

                https://us.hikvision.com/en

                I see those everywhere as well. I think because they're cheap. I was very annoyed by the only system I ever worked with (required IE, 8 years ago now, but still, yuck.)

                Hikvision was very popular because of price until it was discovered they had a backdoor to monitor every camera that had a route to the internet.

                https://ipvm.com/reports/hik-backdoor

                Pete.S 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 3
                • Pete.S
                  Pete.S @JasGot last edited by Pete.S

                  @jasgot said in Looking for Security camera options:

                  @travisdh1 said in Looking for Security camera options:

                  @voip_n00b said in Looking for Security camera options:

                  I have no experience with them but I keep seeing hikvision everywhere.

                  https://us.hikvision.com/en

                  I see those everywhere as well. I think because they're cheap. I was very annoyed by the only system I ever worked with (required IE, 8 years ago now, but still, yuck.)

                  Hikvision was very popular because of price until it was discovered they had a backdoor to monitor every camera that had a route to the internet.

                  https://ipvm.com/reports/hik-backdoor

                  Good to know.
                  But on the other hand it's not wise to open your security cameras to the internet - ever. All devices are filled with backdoors and vulnerabilities. Some are known, most are not.

                  Dashrender 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 3
                  • Dashrender
                    Dashrender @Pete.S last edited by

                    @pete-s said in Looking for Security camera options:

                    @jasgot said in Looking for Security camera options:

                    @travisdh1 said in Looking for Security camera options:

                    @voip_n00b said in Looking for Security camera options:

                    I have no experience with them but I keep seeing hikvision everywhere.

                    https://us.hikvision.com/en

                    I see those everywhere as well. I think because they're cheap. I was very annoyed by the only system I ever worked with (required IE, 8 years ago now, but still, yuck.)

                    Hikvision was very popular because of price until it was discovered they had a backdoor to monitor every camera that had a route to the internet.

                    https://ipvm.com/reports/hik-backdoor

                    Good to know.
                    But on the other hand it's not wise to open your security cameras to the internet - ever. All devices are filled with backdoors and vulnerabilities. Some are known, most are not.

                    so the only way you'd ever have cameras is with local access, or VPN access to that local network?

                    Pete.S stacksofplates 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                    • Pete.S
                      Pete.S @Dashrender last edited by

                      @dashrender said in Looking for Security camera options:

                      @pete-s said in Looking for Security camera options:

                      @jasgot said in Looking for Security camera options:

                      @travisdh1 said in Looking for Security camera options:

                      @voip_n00b said in Looking for Security camera options:

                      I have no experience with them but I keep seeing hikvision everywhere.

                      https://us.hikvision.com/en

                      I see those everywhere as well. I think because they're cheap. I was very annoyed by the only system I ever worked with (required IE, 8 years ago now, but still, yuck.)

                      Hikvision was very popular because of price until it was discovered they had a backdoor to monitor every camera that had a route to the internet.

                      https://ipvm.com/reports/hik-backdoor

                      Good to know.
                      But on the other hand it's not wise to open your security cameras to the internet - ever. All devices are filled with backdoors and vulnerabilities. Some are known, most are not.

                      so the only way you'd ever have cameras is with local access, or VPN access to that local network?

                      Yes. It's hard to secure things that are insecure without adding a layer of "something" around it.

                      In the case of cameras a reverse proxy with SAML authentication could also work.

                      Dashrender 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • Dashrender
                        Dashrender @Pete.S last edited by

                        @pete-s said in Looking for Security camera options:

                        @dashrender said in Looking for Security camera options:

                        @pete-s said in Looking for Security camera options:

                        @jasgot said in Looking for Security camera options:

                        @travisdh1 said in Looking for Security camera options:

                        @voip_n00b said in Looking for Security camera options:

                        I have no experience with them but I keep seeing hikvision everywhere.

                        https://us.hikvision.com/en

                        I see those everywhere as well. I think because they're cheap. I was very annoyed by the only system I ever worked with (required IE, 8 years ago now, but still, yuck.)

                        Hikvision was very popular because of price until it was discovered they had a backdoor to monitor every camera that had a route to the internet.

                        https://ipvm.com/reports/hik-backdoor

                        Good to know.
                        But on the other hand it's not wise to open your security cameras to the internet - ever. All devices are filled with backdoors and vulnerabilities. Some are known, most are not.

                        so the only way you'd ever have cameras is with local access, or VPN access to that local network?

                        Yes. It's hard to secure things that are insecure without adding a layer of "something" around it.

                        In the case of cameras a reverse proxy with SAML authentication could also work.

                        yeah it was a complete non question by the time I finished editing my original post.

                        Of course if you don't trust whatever you're talking about - you have to do this.

                        I would guess though, that you could use a reverse proxy and still put most of these things directly online - especially if you put your own logon page in front of the proxy's redirect to the camera system.

                        Pete.S 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                        • Pete.S
                          Pete.S @Dashrender last edited by Pete.S

                          @dashrender said in Looking for Security camera options:

                          @pete-s said in Looking for Security camera options:

                          @dashrender said in Looking for Security camera options:

                          @pete-s said in Looking for Security camera options:

                          @jasgot said in Looking for Security camera options:

                          @travisdh1 said in Looking for Security camera options:

                          @voip_n00b said in Looking for Security camera options:

                          I have no experience with them but I keep seeing hikvision everywhere.

                          https://us.hikvision.com/en

                          I see those everywhere as well. I think because they're cheap. I was very annoyed by the only system I ever worked with (required IE, 8 years ago now, but still, yuck.)

                          Hikvision was very popular because of price until it was discovered they had a backdoor to monitor every camera that had a route to the internet.

                          https://ipvm.com/reports/hik-backdoor

                          Good to know.
                          But on the other hand it's not wise to open your security cameras to the internet - ever. All devices are filled with backdoors and vulnerabilities. Some are known, most are not.

                          so the only way you'd ever have cameras is with local access, or VPN access to that local network?

                          Yes. It's hard to secure things that are insecure without adding a layer of "something" around it.

                          In the case of cameras a reverse proxy with SAML authentication could also work.

                          yeah it was a complete non question by the time I finished editing my original post.

                          Of course if you don't trust whatever you're talking about - you have to do this.

                          I would guess though, that you could use a reverse proxy and still put most of these things directly online - especially if you put your own logon page in front of the proxy's redirect to the camera system.

                          Yes, the cameras or NVR would be accessible through the reverse proxy only.

                          When you authenticate with SAML, the users are authenticated against a third party "login" service (called Identity Provider). So you are basically outsourcing 2FA and the login process to someone who has the resources to secure it. It's how enterprises do it.

                          Otherwise if you build your own login portal on a reverse proxy, that will become the weak link from a security perspective.

                          Dashrender IRJ 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                          • Dashrender
                            Dashrender @Pete.S last edited by

                            @pete-s said in Looking for Security camera options:

                            @dashrender said in Looking for Security camera options:

                            @pete-s said in Looking for Security camera options:

                            @dashrender said in Looking for Security camera options:

                            @pete-s said in Looking for Security camera options:

                            @jasgot said in Looking for Security camera options:

                            @travisdh1 said in Looking for Security camera options:

                            @voip_n00b said in Looking for Security camera options:

                            I have no experience with them but I keep seeing hikvision everywhere.

                            https://us.hikvision.com/en

                            I see those everywhere as well. I think because they're cheap. I was very annoyed by the only system I ever worked with (required IE, 8 years ago now, but still, yuck.)

                            Hikvision was very popular because of price until it was discovered they had a backdoor to monitor every camera that had a route to the internet.

                            https://ipvm.com/reports/hik-backdoor

                            Good to know.
                            But on the other hand it's not wise to open your security cameras to the internet - ever. All devices are filled with backdoors and vulnerabilities. Some are known, most are not.

                            so the only way you'd ever have cameras is with local access, or VPN access to that local network?

                            Yes. It's hard to secure things that are insecure without adding a layer of "something" around it.

                            In the case of cameras a reverse proxy with SAML authentication could also work.

                            yeah it was a complete non question by the time I finished editing my original post.

                            Of course if you don't trust whatever you're talking about - you have to do this.

                            I would guess though, that you could use a reverse proxy and still put most of these things directly online - especially if you put your own logon page in front of the proxy's redirect to the camera system.

                            Yes, the cameras or NVR would be accessible through the reverse proxy only.

                            When you authenticate with SAML, the users are authenticated against a third party "login" service (called Identity Provider). So you are basically outsourcing 2FA and the login process to someone who has the resources to secure it. It's how enterprises do it.

                            Otherwise if you build your own login portal on a reverse proxy, that will become the weak link from a security perspective.

                            Now you've lost me - where is SAML being introduced?

                            Pete.S 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                            • Pete.S
                              Pete.S @Dashrender last edited by Pete.S

                              @dashrender said in Looking for Security camera options:

                              @pete-s said in Looking for Security camera options:

                              @dashrender said in Looking for Security camera options:

                              @pete-s said in Looking for Security camera options:

                              @dashrender said in Looking for Security camera options:

                              @pete-s said in Looking for Security camera options:

                              @jasgot said in Looking for Security camera options:

                              @travisdh1 said in Looking for Security camera options:

                              @voip_n00b said in Looking for Security camera options:

                              I have no experience with them but I keep seeing hikvision everywhere.

                              https://us.hikvision.com/en

                              I see those everywhere as well. I think because they're cheap. I was very annoyed by the only system I ever worked with (required IE, 8 years ago now, but still, yuck.)

                              Hikvision was very popular because of price until it was discovered they had a backdoor to monitor every camera that had a route to the internet.

                              https://ipvm.com/reports/hik-backdoor

                              Good to know.
                              But on the other hand it's not wise to open your security cameras to the internet - ever. All devices are filled with backdoors and vulnerabilities. Some are known, most are not.

                              so the only way you'd ever have cameras is with local access, or VPN access to that local network?

                              Yes. It's hard to secure things that are insecure without adding a layer of "something" around it.

                              In the case of cameras a reverse proxy with SAML authentication could also work.

                              yeah it was a complete non question by the time I finished editing my original post.

                              Of course if you don't trust whatever you're talking about - you have to do this.

                              I would guess though, that you could use a reverse proxy and still put most of these things directly online - especially if you put your own logon page in front of the proxy's redirect to the camera system.

                              Yes, the cameras or NVR would be accessible through the reverse proxy only.

                              When you authenticate with SAML, the users are authenticated against a third party "login" service (called Identity Provider). So you are basically outsourcing 2FA and the login process to someone who has the resources to secure it. It's how enterprises do it.

                              Otherwise if you build your own login portal on a reverse proxy, that will become the weak link from a security perspective.

                              Now you've lost me - where is SAML being introduced?

                              On the reverse proxy server.

                              You can't do it on the web cameras or any other insecure device.

                              Dashrender 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                              • Dashrender
                                Dashrender @Pete.S last edited by

                                @pete-s said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                @dashrender said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                @pete-s said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                @dashrender said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                @pete-s said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                @dashrender said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                @pete-s said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                @jasgot said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                @travisdh1 said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                @voip_n00b said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                I have no experience with them but I keep seeing hikvision everywhere.

                                https://us.hikvision.com/en

                                I see those everywhere as well. I think because they're cheap. I was very annoyed by the only system I ever worked with (required IE, 8 years ago now, but still, yuck.)

                                Hikvision was very popular because of price until it was discovered they had a backdoor to monitor every camera that had a route to the internet.

                                https://ipvm.com/reports/hik-backdoor

                                Good to know.
                                But on the other hand it's not wise to open your security cameras to the internet - ever. All devices are filled with backdoors and vulnerabilities. Some are known, most are not.

                                so the only way you'd ever have cameras is with local access, or VPN access to that local network?

                                Yes. It's hard to secure things that are insecure without adding a layer of "something" around it.

                                In the case of cameras a reverse proxy with SAML authentication could also work.

                                yeah it was a complete non question by the time I finished editing my original post.

                                Of course if you don't trust whatever you're talking about - you have to do this.

                                I would guess though, that you could use a reverse proxy and still put most of these things directly online - especially if you put your own logon page in front of the proxy's redirect to the camera system.

                                Yes, the cameras or NVR would be accessible through the reverse proxy only.

                                When you authenticate with SAML, the users are authenticated against a third party "login" service (called Identity Provider). So you are basically outsourcing 2FA and the login process to someone who has the resources to secure it. It's how enterprises do it.

                                Otherwise if you build your own login portal on a reverse proxy, that will become the weak link from a security perspective.

                                Now you've lost me - where is SAML being introduced?

                                On the reverse proxy server.

                                You can't do it on the web cameras or any other insecure device.

                                I guess I don't understand why you talked about SAML, then talked about rolling your own... I mean I suppose someone could do that, but if they have access to a SAML solution, rolling your own seems odd.

                                Pete.S 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                • Pete.S
                                  Pete.S @Dashrender last edited by

                                  @dashrender said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                  @pete-s said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                  @dashrender said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                  @pete-s said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                  @dashrender said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                  @pete-s said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                  @dashrender said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                  @pete-s said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                  @jasgot said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                  @travisdh1 said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                  @voip_n00b said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                  I have no experience with them but I keep seeing hikvision everywhere.

                                  https://us.hikvision.com/en

                                  I see those everywhere as well. I think because they're cheap. I was very annoyed by the only system I ever worked with (required IE, 8 years ago now, but still, yuck.)

                                  Hikvision was very popular because of price until it was discovered they had a backdoor to monitor every camera that had a route to the internet.

                                  https://ipvm.com/reports/hik-backdoor

                                  Good to know.
                                  But on the other hand it's not wise to open your security cameras to the internet - ever. All devices are filled with backdoors and vulnerabilities. Some are known, most are not.

                                  so the only way you'd ever have cameras is with local access, or VPN access to that local network?

                                  Yes. It's hard to secure things that are insecure without adding a layer of "something" around it.

                                  In the case of cameras a reverse proxy with SAML authentication could also work.

                                  yeah it was a complete non question by the time I finished editing my original post.

                                  Of course if you don't trust whatever you're talking about - you have to do this.

                                  I would guess though, that you could use a reverse proxy and still put most of these things directly online - especially if you put your own logon page in front of the proxy's redirect to the camera system.

                                  Yes, the cameras or NVR would be accessible through the reverse proxy only.

                                  When you authenticate with SAML, the users are authenticated against a third party "login" service (called Identity Provider). So you are basically outsourcing 2FA and the login process to someone who has the resources to secure it. It's how enterprises do it.

                                  Otherwise if you build your own login portal on a reverse proxy, that will become the weak link from a security perspective.

                                  Now you've lost me - where is SAML being introduced?

                                  On the reverse proxy server.

                                  You can't do it on the web cameras or any other insecure device.

                                  I guess I don't understand why you talked about SAML, then talked about rolling your own... I mean I suppose someone could do that, but if they have access to a SAML solution, rolling your own seems odd.

                                  Yeah, rolling your own isn't a such a good idea.
                                  I just mentioned it because you said "your own logon page".

                                  1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                  • stacksofplates
                                    stacksofplates @Dashrender last edited by

                                    @dashrender said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                    @pete-s said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                    @jasgot said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                    @travisdh1 said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                    @voip_n00b said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                    I have no experience with them but I keep seeing hikvision everywhere.

                                    https://us.hikvision.com/en

                                    I see those everywhere as well. I think because they're cheap. I was very annoyed by the only system I ever worked with (required IE, 8 years ago now, but still, yuck.)

                                    Hikvision was very popular because of price until it was discovered they had a backdoor to monitor every camera that had a route to the internet.

                                    https://ipvm.com/reports/hik-backdoor

                                    Good to know.
                                    But on the other hand it's not wise to open your security cameras to the internet - ever. All devices are filled with backdoors and vulnerabilities. Some are known, most are not.

                                    so the only way you'd ever have cameras is with local access, or VPN access to that local network?

                                    A common way is with VLANs, like mentioned in another thread.

                                    Dashrender 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                    • Dashrender
                                      Dashrender @stacksofplates last edited by

                                      @stacksofplates said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                      @dashrender said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                      @pete-s said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                      @jasgot said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                      @travisdh1 said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                      @voip_n00b said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                      I have no experience with them but I keep seeing hikvision everywhere.

                                      https://us.hikvision.com/en

                                      I see those everywhere as well. I think because they're cheap. I was very annoyed by the only system I ever worked with (required IE, 8 years ago now, but still, yuck.)

                                      Hikvision was very popular because of price until it was discovered they had a backdoor to monitor every camera that had a route to the internet.

                                      https://ipvm.com/reports/hik-backdoor

                                      Good to know.
                                      But on the other hand it's not wise to open your security cameras to the internet - ever. All devices are filled with backdoors and vulnerabilities. Some are known, most are not.

                                      so the only way you'd ever have cameras is with local access, or VPN access to that local network?

                                      A common way is with VLANs, like mentioned in another thread.

                                      I don't think this really gets to the heart of what most people want.

                                      I'm guessing JB's client wants to view these cameras while they are at home, etc.
                                      It's more about the remote access than the LAN based protection... but yeah, sure - Using a VLAN and ACLs is probably a good idea to help keep things separated.

                                      JaredBusch stacksofplates 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                      • JaredBusch
                                        JaredBusch @Dashrender last edited by

                                        @dashrender said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                        @stacksofplates said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                        @dashrender said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                        @pete-s said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                        @jasgot said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                        @travisdh1 said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                        @voip_n00b said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                        I have no experience with them but I keep seeing hikvision everywhere.

                                        https://us.hikvision.com/en

                                        I see those everywhere as well. I think because they're cheap. I was very annoyed by the only system I ever worked with (required IE, 8 years ago now, but still, yuck.)

                                        Hikvision was very popular because of price until it was discovered they had a backdoor to monitor every camera that had a route to the internet.

                                        https://ipvm.com/reports/hik-backdoor

                                        Good to know.
                                        But on the other hand it's not wise to open your security cameras to the internet - ever. All devices are filled with backdoors and vulnerabilities. Some are known, most are not.

                                        so the only way you'd ever have cameras is with local access, or VPN access to that local network?

                                        A common way is with VLANs, like mentioned in another thread.

                                        I don't think this really gets to the heart of what most people want.

                                        I'm guessing JB's client wants to view these cameras while they are at home, etc.
                                        It's more about the remote access than the LAN based protection... but yeah, sure - Using a VLAN and ACLs is probably a good idea to help keep things separated.

                                        It is remote access to a NVR never a specific camera. Cameras never need to be open to the internet.

                                        Dashrender 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                        • stacksofplates
                                          stacksofplates @Dashrender last edited by

                                          @dashrender said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                          @stacksofplates said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                          @dashrender said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                          @pete-s said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                          @jasgot said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                          @travisdh1 said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                          @voip_n00b said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                          I have no experience with them but I keep seeing hikvision everywhere.

                                          https://us.hikvision.com/en

                                          I see those everywhere as well. I think because they're cheap. I was very annoyed by the only system I ever worked with (required IE, 8 years ago now, but still, yuck.)

                                          Hikvision was very popular because of price until it was discovered they had a backdoor to monitor every camera that had a route to the internet.

                                          https://ipvm.com/reports/hik-backdoor

                                          Good to know.
                                          But on the other hand it's not wise to open your security cameras to the internet - ever. All devices are filled with backdoors and vulnerabilities. Some are known, most are not.

                                          so the only way you'd ever have cameras is with local access, or VPN access to that local network?

                                          A common way is with VLANs, like mentioned in another thread.

                                          I don't think this really gets to the heart of what most people want.

                                          I'm guessing JB's client wants to view these cameras while they are at home, etc.
                                          It's more about the remote access than the LAN based protection... but yeah, sure - Using a VLAN and ACLs is probably a good idea to help keep things separated.

                                          As Jared said, separating the cameras onto a separate VLAN doesn't stop people from viewing them out of the office.

                                          Let me rephrase that, it doesnt stop the people you want to view it who are out of the office. It does stop the cameras from tunneling out of your network or allowing backdoor viewers.

                                          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                          • Dashrender
                                            Dashrender @JaredBusch last edited by

                                            @jaredbusch said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                            @dashrender said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                            @stacksofplates said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                            @dashrender said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                            @pete-s said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                            @jasgot said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                            @travisdh1 said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                            @voip_n00b said in Looking for Security camera options:

                                            I have no experience with them but I keep seeing hikvision everywhere.

                                            https://us.hikvision.com/en

                                            I see those everywhere as well. I think because they're cheap. I was very annoyed by the only system I ever worked with (required IE, 8 years ago now, but still, yuck.)

                                            Hikvision was very popular because of price until it was discovered they had a backdoor to monitor every camera that had a route to the internet.

                                            https://ipvm.com/reports/hik-backdoor

                                            Good to know.
                                            But on the other hand it's not wise to open your security cameras to the internet - ever. All devices are filled with backdoors and vulnerabilities. Some are known, most are not.

                                            so the only way you'd ever have cameras is with local access, or VPN access to that local network?

                                            A common way is with VLANs, like mentioned in another thread.

                                            I don't think this really gets to the heart of what most people want.

                                            I'm guessing JB's client wants to view these cameras while they are at home, etc.
                                            It's more about the remote access than the LAN based protection... but yeah, sure - Using a VLAN and ACLs is probably a good idea to help keep things separated.

                                            It is remote access to a NVR never a specific camera. Cameras never need to be open to the internet.

                                            yeah, cause an NVR's are always super hardened to be on the internet 😉

                                            stacksofplates 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote -2
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