Access 2003 in a 2021 World???
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huh, I just did some quick math for my environment.
We pay our EMR vendor something like 5% of our billables for access to platform, our $12 million/year operation then pays roughly $600K/yr... that's a lot of development we could hire and end up with a situation where we can have EXACTLY what we want.
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@Dashrender said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
huh, I just did some quick math for my environment.
We pay our EMR vendor something like 5% of our billables for access to platform, our $12 million/year operation then pays roughly $600K/yr... that's a lot of development we could hire and end up with a situation where we can have EXACTLY what we want.
Wow, yeah. Now that includes the software and hosting, I'm sure. So you don't have a bunch of hidden costs like server licensing and CALs and MS Office and other extra costs sneaking in here and there. But wow, it's a lot.
That kind of budget would easily get you a full time crew of three people, if not more, that create exactly what you want and are there to develop, improve, update, tweak, etc. for forever.
We have customers who do this (not with us) and they don't just consider it a huge financial win, but it's also a big strategic advantage as their ERP lets them do things that their competitors can't.
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@JaredBusch said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
His point is that most companies don’t need all of those pieces in the ERP because some of them are handled in a different thing.
If they're handled in a different thing then we're not really talking about ERP. ERP is different things handled in one thing. It seems like we're talking about several separate systems, not ERP.
Which is fine. So you have a standalone finance system, and a standalone stock control system, and a standalone sales order processing system. But none of those are ERP on their own and you lose many of the benefits of running ERP.
So the argument isn't "build an ERP system in-house", it's "don't run ERP".
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@Carnival-Boy said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
@JaredBusch said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
His point is that most companies don’t need all of those pieces in the ERP because some of them are handled in a different thing.
If they're handled in a different thing then we're not really talking about ERP. ERP is different things handled in one thing. It seems like we're talking about several separate systems, not ERP.
Which is fine. So you have a standalone finance system, and a standalone stock control system, and a standalone sales order processing system. But none of those are ERP on their own and you lose many of the benefits of running ERP.
So the argument isn't "build an ERP system in-house", it's "don't run ERP".
Basically, yes. Because few businesses actually run ERP as you define it.
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@Carnival-Boy said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
@JaredBusch said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
His point is that most companies don’t need all of those pieces in the ERP because some of them are handled in a different thing.
If they're handled in a different thing then we're not really talking about ERP. ERP is different things handled in one thing. It seems like we're talking about several separate systems, not ERP.
Which is fine. So you have a standalone finance system, and a standalone stock control system, and a standalone sales order processing system. But none of those are ERP on their own and you lose many of the benefits of running ERP.
So the argument isn't "build an ERP system in-house", it's "don't run ERP".
I'd go the other way - run ERP, but only as bespoke software. If you have all those different products, you likely have tons of work-arounds you have to do to get data to work together... plus the cost of managing them all separately...
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@Dashrender said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
If you have all those different products, you likely have tons of work-arounds you have to do to get data to work together... plus the cost of managing them all separately...
I agree, it does seem like a lot of work. I can't see the attraction. It feels a bit too 1980s.
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@Carnival-Boy said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
@Dashrender said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
If you have all those different products, you likely have tons of work-arounds you have to do to get data to work together... plus the cost of managing them all separately...
I agree, it does seem like a lot of work. I can't see the attraction. It feels a bit too 1980s.
The problem is getting a company to see how much they are actually spending on their ERP components.
I have a vendor that has an ancient AS400, running Daily and Wilcot. I don't think the software has received an update in 15 years, possibly more like 20+. I've been begging them to move to another platform for 5+ years - old hardware, hard to get replacements, etc...
They really need to move to another platform, In light of this conversation, I wonder if they would be better off hiring someone like Bundy or NTG (I think they do dev) to make them a platform for what they need...
Potentially one of the biggest hurdles is getting their old data out.
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@Dashrender said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
Potentially one of the biggest hurdles is getting their old data out.
Potentially, but not likely.
Those systems are mostly just formatted text records. The only hard part is knowing the data structure and then you just write something to parse it all out out.
I've done it before with a Baby36 system that had a full package wrote in RPG II.
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@scottalanmiller said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
That kind of budget would easily get you a full time crew of three people, if not more, that create exactly what you want and are there to develop, improve, update, tweak, etc. for forever.
It feels like you believe in outsourcing IT but insourcing ERP. But all the arguments you've made regarding outsourcing IT equally apply to ERP, if not more so. I feel you're taking a contradictory position.
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@Carnival-Boy said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
@scottalanmiller said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
That kind of budget would easily get you a full time crew of three people, if not more, that create exactly what you want and are there to develop, improve, update, tweak, etc. for forever.
It feels like you believe in outsourcing IT but insourcing ERP. But all the arguments you've made regarding outsourcing IT equally apply to ERP, if not more so. I feel you're taking a contradictory position.
My experience may be skewed, but in my experience, many companies (that are not on the fortune list) that get custom bespoke software don't hire the developers directly. They pay a small development firm to write something for them.
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@JaredBusch said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
@Carnival-Boy said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
@scottalanmiller said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
That kind of budget would easily get you a full time crew of three people, if not more, that create exactly what you want and are there to develop, improve, update, tweak, etc. for forever.
It feels like you believe in outsourcing IT but insourcing ERP. But all the arguments you've made regarding outsourcing IT equally apply to ERP, if not more so. I feel you're taking a contradictory position.
My experience may be skewed, but in my experience, many companies (that are not on the fortune list) that get custom bespoke software don't hire the developers directly. They pay a small development firm to write something for them.
This would seem like a better option.
I mentioned this to my client that's still on an ancient AS400 - first words out of her mouth - yeah, they write it, then quit and no one knows it or can update it...
Seems like a good reason to go with a company with a development history. -
@Dashrender while I agree, using a tiny dev company may cause the same issues that using a single developer would cause.
Businesses go out of business constantly, so it might make sense to use a well established company with a rather long history.
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Even with an established software house you're entering in to a very committed relationship. You're relying on one company for modifications, fixes etc for years to come at an unspecified cost.
At least with major ERP systems like Microsoft, Oracle or SAP you have a partner network to work with. So if you fall out with your partner, or they put up their fees unreasonably, or they go out of business, then you can simply move to another partner and carry on. That's much, much harder with bespoke software.
Sure, with typical ERP systems you will have customisations on top, either completely bespoke, or industry specific verticals. But that might only be 20% of the system, with 80% being standard. So moving to another ERP partner means the new partner only has to worry about the 20% of bespoke code, not a completely unknown system that is 100% bespoke.
And the reality is companies are simply not that unique. Many think they are, but the majority of unique business processes are not ones that add value but are a case of "we've always done it like this". Identifying unique processes that add genuine value, whilst standardising other processes, reduces the amount of customisation needed, reduces costs, and actually increases efficiency and business performance.
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@Carnival-Boy said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
Even with an established software house you're entering in to a very committed relationship. You're relying on one company for modifications, fixes etc for years to come at an unspecified cost.
Like with any Microsoft Product?
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@Carnival-Boy said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
At least with major ERP systems like Microsoft, Oracle or SAP you have a partner network to work with. So if you fall out with your partner, or they put up their fees unreasonably, or they go out of business, then you can simply move to another partner and carry on. That's much, much harder with bespoke software.
That is why you'd have to use a well known, flexible and capable programming language. Hopefully as you're searching for a software development company, you'd also know to not look for someone who programs in Visual basic.
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@Carnival-Boy said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
Sure, with typical ERP systems you will have customisations on top, either completely bespoke, or industry specific verticals. But that might only be 20% of the system, with 80% being standard. So moving to another ERP partner means the new partner only has to worry about the 20% of bespoke code, not a completely unknown system that is 100% bespoke.
I would honestly say the difference is even less, at least in my experience. With my prior example the business really only needed one custom report made (granted using Crystal Reports) to really make the software work for the business.
The hundreds of thousands the business previously invested was unable to do what a simple report from the existing database, albeit custom was able to do.
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@DustinB3403 said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
@Carnival-Boy said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
At least with major ERP systems like Microsoft, Oracle or SAP you have a partner network to work with. So if you fall out with your partner, or they put up their fees unreasonably, or they go out of business, then you can simply move to another partner and carry on. That's much, much harder with bespoke software.
That is why you'd have to use a well known, flexible and capable programming language. Hopefully as you're searching for a software development company, you'd also know to not look for someone who programs in Visual basic.
This is a HUGE part of the problem. This is where being IT is critical - but it's unreasonable for the owner of a HVAC company to be expected to know anything about what programming languages are good ones, which ones will have longevity... so they have to hire it out - but then too - how do they know they've hired well?
Knowing what we know now - programming in Flash was horrible - yet tons of enterprises created countless things in Flash - and continue to use those things, refusing to spend to basically recreate them in something modern.
I'm guessing there's something about things like Flash that @scottalanmiller will tell us was obvious why we should never have used it - but then the question is - where there anything else at the time (late 90's early 2000's) that could do the job? and what situations do we see laid out in front of us today the present similar situations?
I suppose the next question I have, considering I have no answers, is - should we be ready to accept that we need to start over once every 20 or so years because as our technology marches forward it simply leaves old, what I'll call stop gap measures, behind?I think this warrants it's own thread and discussion.
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Speaking of having to start over every x years - and completely off topic - homes, people often don't seem to be prepared for the maintenance that home require. New windows every 20 or less years seems pretty common and nessecary, just like most roofs need to be reshingled at least every 30 years, HVACs replaced every 20, etc. Yet time and time again, you see people completely unprepared for these massive expenses.
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@Dashrender said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
@DustinB3403 said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
@Carnival-Boy said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
At least with major ERP systems like Microsoft, Oracle or SAP you have a partner network to work with. So if you fall out with your partner, or they put up their fees unreasonably, or they go out of business, then you can simply move to another partner and carry on. That's much, much harder with bespoke software.
That is why you'd have to use a well known, flexible and capable programming language. Hopefully as you're searching for a software development company, you'd also know to not look for someone who programs in Visual basic.
This is a HUGE part of the problem. This is where being IT is critical - but it's unreasonable for the owner of a HVAC company to be expected to know anything about what programming languages are good ones, which ones will have longevity... so they have to hire it out - but then too - how do they know they've hired well?
Knowing what we know now - programming in Flash was horrible - yet tons of enterprises created countless things in Flash - and continue to use those things, refusing to spend to basically recreate them in something modern.
I'm guessing there's something about things like Flash that @scottalanmiller will tell us was obvious why we should never have used it - but then the question is - where there anything else at the time (late 90's early 2000's) that could do the job? and what situations do we see laid out in front of us today the present similar situations?
I suppose the next question I have, considering I have no answers, is - should we be ready to accept that we need to start over once every 20 or so years because as our technology marches forward it simply leaves old, what I'll call stop gap measures, behind?I think this warrants it's own thread and discussion.
Speaking from experience with flash, it was the only language that let you easily manipulate media at the time. If you needed to play an mp3, it took a single line of flash code and 5 minutes if you had to look up options. Most other languages you had to write a full mp3 player.
Today, basically any modern programing language has that sort of thing built in.
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@travisdh1 said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
@Dashrender said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
@DustinB3403 said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
@Carnival-Boy said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
At least with major ERP systems like Microsoft, Oracle or SAP you have a partner network to work with. So if you fall out with your partner, or they put up their fees unreasonably, or they go out of business, then you can simply move to another partner and carry on. That's much, much harder with bespoke software.
That is why you'd have to use a well known, flexible and capable programming language. Hopefully as you're searching for a software development company, you'd also know to not look for someone who programs in Visual basic.
This is a HUGE part of the problem. This is where being IT is critical - but it's unreasonable for the owner of a HVAC company to be expected to know anything about what programming languages are good ones, which ones will have longevity... so they have to hire it out - but then too - how do they know they've hired well?
Knowing what we know now - programming in Flash was horrible - yet tons of enterprises created countless things in Flash - and continue to use those things, refusing to spend to basically recreate them in something modern.
I'm guessing there's something about things like Flash that @scottalanmiller will tell us was obvious why we should never have used it - but then the question is - where there anything else at the time (late 90's early 2000's) that could do the job? and what situations do we see laid out in front of us today the present similar situations?
I suppose the next question I have, considering I have no answers, is - should we be ready to accept that we need to start over once every 20 or so years because as our technology marches forward it simply leaves old, what I'll call stop gap measures, behind?I think this warrants it's own thread and discussion.
Speaking from experience with flash, it was the only language that let you easily manipulate media at the time. If you needed to play an mp3, it took a single line of flash code and 5 minutes if you had to look up options. Most other languages you had to write a full mp3 player.
Today, basically any modern programing language has that sort of thing built in.
So this leads us down (at least in the one example) the foreseen requirement to have to rebuild most things from scratch as newer better, supported solutions come along... but this is only one example.
