Microsoft plans on retiring the MCSA,MCSD,MCSE certifications in June 30,2020
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@stacksofplates said in Microsoft plans on retiring the MCSA,MCSD,MCSE certifications in June 30,2020:
Statements like zero of your customers can "go to cloud" whatever that means are ridiculous.
Not in the least. Thinking that every customer can afford to go cloud just because it's the cool new term is what is crazy. Why would they pay all that money and gain nothing? It's just not valuable for real world businesses. Some, of course, but not the majority. And of the ones it makes sense for, almost none can use it for everything.
Remember, I led the move to cloud on Wall St. Built the first cloud there. It was great, but only for certain workloads. Big workloads, important workloads, and it was massively beneficial. But the majority of the workloads couldn't use it. Just didn't make sense. Whether they needed more predictable performance, faster performance, or just didn't scale in that way... even in that environment wasn't practical to pay the overhead of cloud or it couldn't meet the needs.
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@stacksofplates said in Microsoft plans on retiring the MCSA,MCSD,MCSE certifications in June 30,2020:
Containerization and FaaS have made development and deployments insanely easier and less costly.
True for non-cloud installs as well, though. And only true for cloud when you have completely reliable networking. Hosted FaaS is a real challenge if your ISP drops.
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@scottalanmiller said in Microsoft plans on retiring the MCSA,MCSD,MCSE certifications in June 30,2020:
@stacksofplates said in Microsoft plans on retiring the MCSA,MCSD,MCSE certifications in June 30,2020:
Containerization and FaaS have made development and deployments insanely easier and less costly.
True for non-cloud installs as well, though. And only true for cloud when you have completely reliable networking. Hosted FaaS is a real challenge if your ISP drops.
No it's not. Because you can just go somewhere else. It's a real problem when it's locally hosted and your ISP drops and no customers can access it.
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@scottalanmiller said in Microsoft plans on retiring the MCSA,MCSD,MCSE certifications in June 30,2020:
Remember, I led the move to cloud on Wall St. Built the first cloud there.
To be transparent, I 100% do not believe this is true.
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What did you use to provide the infrastructure?
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How did you manage scaling without the needed APIs?
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What year was this?
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@stacksofplates said in Microsoft plans on retiring the MCSA,MCSD,MCSE certifications in June 30,2020:
@scottalanmiller said in Microsoft plans on retiring the MCSA,MCSD,MCSE certifications in June 30,2020:
@stacksofplates said in Microsoft plans on retiring the MCSA,MCSD,MCSE certifications in June 30,2020:
Containerization and FaaS have made development and deployments insanely easier and less costly.
True for non-cloud installs as well, though. And only true for cloud when you have completely reliable networking. Hosted FaaS is a real challenge if your ISP drops.
No it's not. Because you can just go somewhere else. It's a real problem when it's locally hosted and your ISP drops and no customers can access it.
That 'somewhere else' is also more expensive though... Doesnt mattwr if its AWS, Azure, Google Compute, or another... It costs a more. Local hosted doesn't mean one bad ISP will destroy service for customers. We have out infrastructure in our facilities in London, Aberdeen, Barcelona, Middle East, Singapore, Houston, Calgary, Toronto and Singapore. I can lose any site and that will have no impact to customers. Still a lot cheaper than cloud.
Last time I looked, a single one of my calculation servers came to around 80k GBP. High core count, multiple TB of RAM. In Azure, over 6 years, MS were coming back with something in the range of £450k ex VAT. Insane difference.
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@Jimmy9008 said in Microsoft plans on retiring the MCSA,MCSD,MCSE certifications in June 30,2020:
Last time I looked, a single one of my calculation servers came to around 80k GBP. High core count, multiple TB of RAM. In Azure, over 6 years, MS were coming back with something in the range of £450k ex VAT. Insane difference.
...again, legacy thinking will almost always lead to increased costs.
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@Jimmy9008 said in Microsoft plans on retiring the MCSA,MCSD,MCSE certifications in June 30,2020:
@stacksofplates said in Microsoft plans on retiring the MCSA,MCSD,MCSE certifications in June 30,2020:
@scottalanmiller said in Microsoft plans on retiring the MCSA,MCSD,MCSE certifications in June 30,2020:
@stacksofplates said in Microsoft plans on retiring the MCSA,MCSD,MCSE certifications in June 30,2020:
Containerization and FaaS have made development and deployments insanely easier and less costly.
True for non-cloud installs as well, though. And only true for cloud when you have completely reliable networking. Hosted FaaS is a real challenge if your ISP drops.
No it's not. Because you can just go somewhere else. It's a real problem when it's locally hosted and your ISP drops and no customers can access it.
That 'somewhere else' is also more expensive though... Doesnt mattwr if its AWS, Azure, Google Compute, or another... It costs a more. Local hosted doesn't mean one bad ISP will destroy service for customers. We have out infrastructure in our facilities in London, Aberdeen, Barcelona, Middle East, Singapore, Houston, Calgary, Toronto and Singapore. I can lose any site and that will have no impact to customers. Still a lot cheaper than cloud.
Last time I looked, a single one of my calculation servers came to around 80k GBP. High core count, multiple TB of RAM. In Azure, over 6 years, MS were coming back with something in the range of £450k ex VAT. Insane difference.
That's completely different than the scenario he's talking about.
80k seems like an insane cost for a single server considering we did CFD, thermal, acoustics, and mechanics solves on a 20 node cluster made up of servers that were around $8K a piece.
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For instance, each box had dual 20 core CPUs and didn't need a ton of RAM. There were a few clusters but the had to be shared by all of the engineers so it slowed everyone down. With AWS you can fire up a few c5.18s and pay $3.45 an hour. So a normal job for the engineers would cost around $165. But there's no maintenance of clusters, no infiniband to maintain, no waiting for other jobs to complete in the queue, and no OS maintenance. Create your AMI and spin up patched machines when necessary.
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@stacksofplates said in Microsoft plans on retiring the MCSA,MCSD,MCSE certifications in June 30,2020:
For instance, each box had dual 20 core CPUs and didn't need a ton of RAM. There were a few clusters but the had to be shared by all of the engineers so it slowed everyone down. With AWS you can fire up a few c5.18s and pay $3.45 an hour. So a normal job for the engineers would cost around $165. But there's no maintenance of clusters, no infiniband to maintain, no waiting for other jobs to complete in the queue, and no OS maintenance. Create your AMI and spin up patched machines when necessary.
What kind of calculations are that? I thought all HPC clusters ran on GPU power. A server with a couple of Nvidia V100 GPUs are expensive. Also infinitely more powerful than regular servers.
PS. Seems like a Nvidia V100 GPU card is about $6K each.
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@Pete-S said in Microsoft plans on retiring the MCSA,MCSD,MCSE certifications in June 30,2020:
@stacksofplates said in Microsoft plans on retiring the MCSA,MCSD,MCSE certifications in June 30,2020:
For instance, each box had dual 20 core CPUs and didn't need a ton of RAM. There were a few clusters but the had to be shared by all of the engineers so it slowed everyone down. With AWS you can fire up a few c5.18s and pay $3.45 an hour. So a normal job for the engineers would cost around $165. But there's no maintenance of clusters, no infiniband to maintain, no waiting for other jobs to complete in the queue, and no OS maintenance. Create your AMI and spin up patched machines when necessary.
What kind of calculations are that? I thought all HPC clusters ran on GPU power. A server with a couple of Nvidia V100 GPUs are expensive. Also infinitely more powerful than regular servers.
PS. Seems like a Nvidia V100 GPU card is about $6K each.
These were for nuclear pumps. Since we had all kinds of engineers using them it was a general setup for everyone.
We had a couple of boxes with 4 GPUs each but they weren't used as much. It was more for Windows work.
They used ANSYS for most of their work and then also some internally developed software.
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@stacksofplates said in Microsoft plans on retiring the MCSA,MCSD,MCSE certifications in June 30,2020:
@scottalanmiller said in Microsoft plans on retiring the MCSA,MCSD,MCSE certifications in June 30,2020:
Remember, I led the move to cloud on Wall St. Built the first cloud there.
To be transparent, I 100% do not believe this is true.
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What did you use to provide the infrastructure?
-
How did you manage scaling without the needed APIs?
-
What year was this?
We were published and everything. JvU talks about the demo in that article, not production which was much larger. The cloud elements weren't added until after that point. Year was 2007. We had 10,000 nodes. We used a mixture of custom code (this is WS, you get all kinds of custom stuff built all the time and huge teams of dedicated people doing this all the time) and Symphony from Toronto, with their engineering constantly involved as we were the really big proving ground at the time. Scaling was pretty fast for the time, not like stuff today. But crazy for the time. They used the term grid back then, but it was a grid based cloud. At the time, the terms weren't very well known or solidified.
While there weren't containers used, the platform operated a lot like containers do today. Not only could 10K nodes / 40K CPUs dynamically run any workloads in any numbers that were needed, but the operating systems for them would dynamically adjust as well. It was a constant scaling operation and one of the largest of its time and the first on WS.
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@stacksofplates said in Microsoft plans on retiring the MCSA,MCSD,MCSE certifications in June 30,2020:
@scottalanmiller said in Microsoft plans on retiring the MCSA,MCSD,MCSE certifications in June 30,2020:
@stacksofplates said in Microsoft plans on retiring the MCSA,MCSD,MCSE certifications in June 30,2020:
Containerization and FaaS have made development and deployments insanely easier and less costly.
True for non-cloud installs as well, though. And only true for cloud when you have completely reliable networking. Hosted FaaS is a real challenge if your ISP drops.
No it's not. Because you can just go somewhere else. It's a real problem when it's locally hosted and your ISP drops and no customers can access it.
Most companies can't dynamically move their workforce when the services are for a physical location. It's absolutely true in the real world that access to your IT infrastructure is critical where you work. Most of the world can't just send everyone home or own backup sites.
Tell a doctor's office, vet clinic, restaurant, retail store, manufacturing plant that their access to servers "doesn't matter" and that as long as they are hosted cloud they don't need Internet from where they work because they can just "relocate" anytime there is a blip. What?
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@Pete-S said in Microsoft plans on retiring the MCSA,MCSD,MCSE certifications in June 30,2020:
What kind of calculations are that? I thought all HPC clusters ran on GPU power.
Probably the majority do, now. But HPC was a bit deal long before GPU offloading was a thing (in those scenarios.) GPU use in HPC is relatively new. Really great and useful, but new and only works most of the time. There are still workloads needing HPC that don't benefit or benefit much from GPUs and those GPUs tend to be pretty expensive in absolute terms.
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American Banker talks about it as it grew to the first product size. It's 2008 and the article misuses Cloud to mean public hosted cloud, but clearly JvU talks about CG's internal cloud being the future. They were using grid to refer to private cloud. This was 12-13 years ago and the terms were still getting popular acceptance - cloud only became a common term in later 2007 and we all remember what a cluster (pun intended) that was to figure out. Grid was a term being thrown around for this private cloud stuff in the later 2000s, but it all just got renamed cloud soon thereafter.
JvU now heads cloud infrastructure at Toronto Dominion.
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@scottalanmiller said in Microsoft plans on retiring the MCSA,MCSD,MCSE certifications in June 30,2020:
@stacksofplates said in Microsoft plans on retiring the MCSA,MCSD,MCSE certifications in June 30,2020:
@scottalanmiller said in Microsoft plans on retiring the MCSA,MCSD,MCSE certifications in June 30,2020:
Remember, I led the move to cloud on Wall St. Built the first cloud there.
To be transparent, I 100% do not believe this is true.
-
What did you use to provide the infrastructure?
-
How did you manage scaling without the needed APIs?
-
What year was this?
We were published and everything. JvU talks about the demo in that article, not production which was much larger. The cloud elements weren't added until after that point. Year was 2007. We had 10,000 nodes. We used a mixture of custom code (this is WS, you get all kinds of custom stuff built all the time and huge teams of dedicated people doing this all the time) and Symphony from Toronto, with their engineering constantly involved as we were the really big proving ground at the time. Scaling was pretty fast for the time, not like stuff today. But crazy for the time. They used the term grid back then, but it was a grid based cloud. At the time, the terms weren't very well known or solidified.
While there weren't containers used, the platform operated a lot like containers do today. Not only could 10K nodes / 40K CPUs dynamically run any workloads in any numbers that were needed, but the operating systems for them would dynamically adjust as well. It was a constant scaling operation and one of the largest of its time and the first on WS.
That's LSF. It's just a job scheduler like OpenFOAM, ANSYS, Slurm, Flux, etc. That's like a big Beowulf cluster but it's grid computing, not cloud computing.
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@scottalanmiller said in Microsoft plans on retiring the MCSA,MCSD,MCSE certifications in June 30,2020:
@stacksofplates said in Microsoft plans on retiring the MCSA,MCSD,MCSE certifications in June 30,2020:
@scottalanmiller said in Microsoft plans on retiring the MCSA,MCSD,MCSE certifications in June 30,2020:
@stacksofplates said in Microsoft plans on retiring the MCSA,MCSD,MCSE certifications in June 30,2020:
Containerization and FaaS have made development and deployments insanely easier and less costly.
True for non-cloud installs as well, though. And only true for cloud when you have completely reliable networking. Hosted FaaS is a real challenge if your ISP drops.
No it's not. Because you can just go somewhere else. It's a real problem when it's locally hosted and your ISP drops and no customers can access it.
Most companies can't dynamically move their workforce when the services are for a physical location. It's absolutely true in the real world that access to your IT infrastructure is critical where you work. Most of the world can't just send everyone home or own backup sites.
Tell a doctor's office, vet clinic, restaurant, retail store, manufacturing plant that their access to servers "doesn't matter" and that as long as they are hosted cloud they don't need Internet from where they work because they can just "relocate" anytime there is a blip. What?
This is the exact opposite of the arguments you have made in the past.
This is one I found real quick because I'm too lazy to search but it has happened multiple times.
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@stacksofplates said in Microsoft plans on retiring the MCSA,MCSD,MCSE certifications in June 30,2020:
@scottalanmiller said in Microsoft plans on retiring the MCSA,MCSD,MCSE certifications in June 30,2020:
@stacksofplates said in Microsoft plans on retiring the MCSA,MCSD,MCSE certifications in June 30,2020:
@scottalanmiller said in Microsoft plans on retiring the MCSA,MCSD,MCSE certifications in June 30,2020:
@stacksofplates said in Microsoft plans on retiring the MCSA,MCSD,MCSE certifications in June 30,2020:
Containerization and FaaS have made development and deployments insanely easier and less costly.
True for non-cloud installs as well, though. And only true for cloud when you have completely reliable networking. Hosted FaaS is a real challenge if your ISP drops.
No it's not. Because you can just go somewhere else. It's a real problem when it's locally hosted and your ISP drops and no customers can access it.
Most companies can't dynamically move their workforce when the services are for a physical location. It's absolutely true in the real world that access to your IT infrastructure is critical where you work. Most of the world can't just send everyone home or own backup sites.
Tell a doctor's office, vet clinic, restaurant, retail store, manufacturing plant that their access to servers "doesn't matter" and that as long as they are hosted cloud they don't need Internet from where they work because they can just "relocate" anytime there is a blip. What?
This is the exact opposite of the arguments you have made in the past.
This is one I found real quick because I'm too lazy to search but it has happened multiple times.
You have a trend of taking one thing that I say, adding a lot of assumption, and then claim that I am making a different statement. The thing that you are trying to say I'm waffling on is that "most companies" can't shift to working from an alternative location effectively.
You dispute it using a quote that says nothing of the sort. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, in that old 2018 statement that discusses how likely being able to use those mitigation strategies is. I only mentioned that they exist and that he should keep them in consideration as options when looking at where to put his infrastructure.
This is constantly a problem with these discussions. Everyone demands that everyone have a single solution to all things so if you ever mention any factor that makes anything an option, it's then taken that you must believe that that one solution is the only solution.
It's like the RAID 5 thing. You point out a specific scenario where it should never be used, then people just change that to simply "never be used." I say that cloud "isn't always the answer" and suddenly it's taken as "cloud is never the answer." Just read what I wrote, it doesn't say what you are claiming it said.
I never claimed that there aren't ways that some companies can work around network outages. I talk about that all the time. And in fact, did so in the last twenty minutes when talking about why we at NTG choose cloud for some functions. But just because we can do that and because many other companies can, if I so much as mention that, somehow now I'm believed to think that "some" or "many" must also equal "all".
IT is never about "one way to do things." If you ever think I've said something of that sort, read it again. I never say those things. Lots of people claim I do and people repeat those other people, but they are never discussing what I've said, only what people have said about me.
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@scottalanmiller said in Microsoft plans on retiring the MCSA,MCSD,MCSE certifications in June 30,2020:
@stacksofplates said in Microsoft plans on retiring the MCSA,MCSD,MCSE certifications in June 30,2020:
@scottalanmiller said in Microsoft plans on retiring the MCSA,MCSD,MCSE certifications in June 30,2020:
@stacksofplates said in Microsoft plans on retiring the MCSA,MCSD,MCSE certifications in June 30,2020:
@scottalanmiller said in Microsoft plans on retiring the MCSA,MCSD,MCSE certifications in June 30,2020:
@stacksofplates said in Microsoft plans on retiring the MCSA,MCSD,MCSE certifications in June 30,2020:
Containerization and FaaS have made development and deployments insanely easier and less costly.
True for non-cloud installs as well, though. And only true for cloud when you have completely reliable networking. Hosted FaaS is a real challenge if your ISP drops.
No it's not. Because you can just go somewhere else. It's a real problem when it's locally hosted and your ISP drops and no customers can access it.
Most companies can't dynamically move their workforce when the services are for a physical location. It's absolutely true in the real world that access to your IT infrastructure is critical where you work. Most of the world can't just send everyone home or own backup sites.
Tell a doctor's office, vet clinic, restaurant, retail store, manufacturing plant that their access to servers "doesn't matter" and that as long as they are hosted cloud they don't need Internet from where they work because they can just "relocate" anytime there is a blip. What?
This is the exact opposite of the arguments you have made in the past.
This is one I found real quick because I'm too lazy to search but it has happened multiple times.
You have a trend of taking one thing that I say, adding a lot of assumption, and then claim that I am making a different statement. The thing that you are trying to say I'm waffling on is that "most companies" can't shift to working from an alternative location effectively.
You dispute it using a quote that says nothing of the sort. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, in that old 2018 statement that discusses how likely being able to use those mitigation strategies is. I only mentioned that they exist and that he should keep them in consideration as options when looking at where to put his infrastructure.
This is constantly a problem with these discussions. Everyone demands that everyone have a single solution to all things so if you ever mention any factor that makes anything an option, it's then taken that you must believe that that one solution is the only solution.
It's like the RAID 5 thing. You point out a specific scenario where it should never be used, then people just change that to simply "never be used." I say that cloud "isn't always the answer" and suddenly it's taken as "cloud is never the answer." Just read what I wrote, it doesn't say what you are claiming it said.
I never claimed that there aren't ways that some companies can work around network outages. I talk about that all the time. And in fact, did so in the last twenty minutes when talking about why we at NTG choose cloud for some functions. But just because we can do that and because many other companies can, if I so much as mention that, somehow now I'm believed to think that "some" or "many" must also equal "all".
IT is never about "one way to do things." If you ever think I've said something of that sort, read it again. I never say those things. Lots of people claim I do and people repeat those other people, but they are never discussing what I've said, only what people have said about me.
There's no assumption. You literally said "but lose all of these t hings if you go internal only". That's not an assumption, it's a direct quote.
Nearly all professional fields have work from home and have for a long time.
The point is you make statements like that and then years later decide to be more pragmatic and say "well it's the real world" when you ignored the real world when you made the initial statement.
This is just like that time when @JaredBusch and I argued with you because you said "we were laughing at people not using APIs in the 90s" meanwhile there are still a ton of companies making client/server architecture including a piece of software you have to support.
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@stacksofplates said in Microsoft plans on retiring the MCSA,MCSD,MCSE certifications in June 30,2020:
There's no assumption. You literally said "but lose all of these t hings if you go internal only". That's not an assumption, it's a direct quote.
Except the quote doesn't mean what you are saying it means, at all. Yes, those things go away. But that's ALL it means. It doesn't mean that he CAN use those things, only that the option goes away.
How you took that to mean that I was saying that that was the way to go, I can't even imagine.
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@stacksofplates said in Microsoft plans on retiring the MCSA,MCSD,MCSE certifications in June 30,2020:
The point is you make statements like that and then years later decide to be more pragmatic and say "well it's the real world" when you ignored the real world when you made the initial statement.
You just quoted the statement and know that I did nothing of the sort. You literally just quoted it, twice.
