Co-lo + 5 (or more) sites....connect 'em all
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@scottalanmiller said in Co-lo + 5 (or more) sites....connect 'em all:
@FATeknollogee said in Co-lo + 5 (or more) sites....connect 'em all:
The previous blog post seems to imply heavy/high CPU usage, wondering how this would affect performance?
We'd expect a bit. OpenVPN does as it is. SSL VPNs take a toll on performance.
It's not OpenVPN that takes a toll on performance. If you look at the actual overhead on the packets it's very small.
But it's the fact that small routers have very weak CPUs but they can off load straight IPsec, when you are not doing packet inspection or anything that requires the CPU. However they can't off load OpenVPN.
If you look at more powerful CPUs, like Intel, you can off load OpenVPN with the AES-NI extensions in the CPU. So OpenVPN barely makes a dent on the CPU if you run it over a WAN link.
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@Pete-S said in Co-lo + 5 (or more) sites....connect 'em all:
@scottalanmiller said in Co-lo + 5 (or more) sites....connect 'em all:
@FATeknollogee said in Co-lo + 5 (or more) sites....connect 'em all:
The previous blog post seems to imply heavy/high CPU usage, wondering how this would affect performance?
We'd expect a bit. OpenVPN does as it is. SSL VPNs take a toll on performance.
It's not OpenVPN that takes a toll on performance. If you look at the actual overhead on the packets it's very small.
But it's the fact that small routers have very weak CPUs but they can off load straight IPsec, when you are not doing packet inspection or anything that requires the CPU. However they can't off load OpenVPN.
If you look at more powerful CPUs, like Intel, you can off load OpenVPN with the AES-NI extensions in the CPU. So OpenVPN barely makes a dent on the CPU if you run it over a WAN link.
PS. So high CPU is not linked to the protocol but to what the router support for hardware off load.
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@Pete-S said in Co-lo + 5 (or more) sites....connect 'em all:
But it's the fact that small routers have very weak CPUs but they can off load straight IPsec, when you are not doing packet inspection or anything that requires the CPU. However they can't off load OpenVPN.
Sounds like the choice should def be IPSec for less of a performance hit?
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@FATeknollogee said in Co-lo + 5 (or more) sites....connect 'em all:
@Pete-S said in Co-lo + 5 (or more) sites....connect 'em all:
But it's the fact that small routers have very weak CPUs but they can off load straight IPsec, when you are not doing packet inspection or anything that requires the CPU. However they can't off load OpenVPN.
Sounds like the choice should def be IPSec for less of a performance hit?
With an Edgerouter yes. You can read more here and see how much difference it makes.
https://help.ubnt.com/hc/en-us/articles/115006567467-EdgeRouter-Hardware-Offloading -
@Pete-S said in Co-lo + 5 (or more) sites....connect 'em all:
@FATeknollogee said in Co-lo + 5 (or more) sites....connect 'em all:
@Pete-S said in Co-lo + 5 (or more) sites....connect 'em all:
But it's the fact that small routers have very weak CPUs but they can off load straight IPsec, when you are not doing packet inspection or anything that requires the CPU. However they can't off load OpenVPN.
Sounds like the choice should def be IPSec for less of a performance hit?
With an Edgerouter yes. You can read more here and see how much difference it makes.
https://help.ubnt.com/hc/en-us/articles/115006567467-EdgeRouter-Hardware-OffloadingAlso note that even with IPsec it's very dependent on what encryption you are using.
AES-256-GCM for instance would kill the Edgerouter performance but coast on a x86 server with AES-NI (which every CPUs has except some low powered devices).. -
@FATeknollogee said in Co-lo + 5 (or more) sites....connect 'em all:
@Pete-S said in Co-lo + 5 (or more) sites....connect 'em all:
But it's the fact that small routers have very weak CPUs but they can off load straight IPsec, when you are not doing packet inspection or anything that requires the CPU. However they can't off load OpenVPN.
Sounds like the choice should def be IPSec for less of a performance hit?
Pretty much always. That's why IPSec is the de facto protocol for normal VPN usage, to the point that people confuse other things like ZT or OpenVPN as "alternatives" rather than all of them being peers. Every major VPN platform uses IPsec because it is built in to nearly everything and is extremely light to implement.
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Here are some benchmarks on IPsec with some different edgerouters.
https://www.simonmott.co.uk/2018/08/ubiquiti-edgerouter-ipsec-performance/
From the link it says the more powerful ER-4 will top out at about 450 Mbps of IPsec using AES-128. -
Hmmm...is this an option...? https://www.tnsr.com/
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@FATeknollogee said in Co-lo + 5 (or more) sites....connect 'em all:
Hmmm...is this an option...? https://www.tnsr.com/
An option in general? Sure, it's just a vRouter that does IPsec. I'm sure it is good, but you can't run it on an EdgeRouter because it's an OS.
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@scottalanmiller said in Co-lo + 5 (or more) sites....connect 'em all:
@FATeknollogee said in Co-lo + 5 (or more) sites....connect 'em all:
Hmmm...is this an option...? https://www.tnsr.com/
An option in general? Sure, it's just a vRouter that does IPsec. I'm sure it is good, but you can't run it on an EdgeRouter because it's an OS.
One would have to switch to pfSense if TNSR is a viable option.
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@FATeknollogee said in Co-lo + 5 (or more) sites....connect 'em all:
@scottalanmiller said in Co-lo + 5 (or more) sites....connect 'em all:
@FATeknollogee said in Co-lo + 5 (or more) sites....connect 'em all:
Hmmm...is this an option...? https://www.tnsr.com/
An option in general? Sure, it's just a vRouter that does IPsec. I'm sure it is good, but you can't run it on an EdgeRouter because it's an OS.
One would have to switch to pfSense if TNSR is a viable option.
I guess the real question I'd have is... why? What about TNSR makes it interesting in any way? Aren't you just looking at replacing tried and true, built in IPSec implementations with this complicated package that is just repacking OpenSwan?
I'm confused what you are trying to achieve. Connecting 5+ sites is the absolute clear use case for normal everyday IPSec on your outside hardware router. This is as "by the textbook" as it gets.
Can you use other VPN tech for this like OpenVPN, yes. Should you? Not really, it has no benefits to you. IPSec is best for this for speed, support, ease of use.
This is not a case where ZT has applicability unless you have needs that haven't been mentioned. Same with TNSR, what would this do other than make simple IPSec really hard and complicated for no reason?
This feels like one of those Aaron threads where he's captivated by all kinds of shiny product pages and misses that he's trying to do something very straightforward that is handled best by the tools that everyone uses for this every day. I'm missing what is driving the attempt to research new, hip, flashy products as none of them seem to bring anything to this particular table.
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@FATeknollogee said in Co-lo + 5 (or more) sites....connect 'em all:
What options are available today?
VPN, ZeroTier??Keep in mind anything that does this is a VPN. ZT and others are not VPN alternatives, they are just VPNs. VPN (or leased lines) are the only possible options at the end of the day.
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@scottalanmiller said in Co-lo + 5 (or more) sites....connect 'em all:
@FATeknollogee said in Co-lo + 5 (or more) sites....connect 'em all:
@scottalanmiller said in Co-lo + 5 (or more) sites....connect 'em all:
@FATeknollogee said in Co-lo + 5 (or more) sites....connect 'em all:
Hmmm...is this an option...? https://www.tnsr.com/
An option in general? Sure, it's just a vRouter that does IPsec. I'm sure it is good, but you can't run it on an EdgeRouter because it's an OS.
One would have to switch to pfSense if TNSR is a viable option.
I guess the real question I'd have is... why? What about TNSR makes it interesting in any way? Aren't you just looking at replacing tried and true, built in IPSec implementations with this complicated package that is just repacking OpenSwan?
I'm confused what you are trying to achieve. Connecting 5+ sites is the absolute clear use case for normal everyday IPSec on your outside hardware router. This is as "by the textbook" as it gets.
Can you use other VPN tech for this like OpenVPN, yes. Should you? Not really, it has no benefits to you. IPSec is best for this for speed, support, ease of use.
This is not a case where ZT has applicability unless you have needs that haven't been mentioned. Same with TNSR, what would this do other than make simple IPSec really hard and complicated for no reason?
This feels like one of those Aaron threads where he's captivated by all kinds of shiny product pages and misses that he's trying to do something very straightforward that is handled best by the tools that everyone uses for this every day. I'm missing what is driving the attempt to research new, hip, flashy products as none of them seem to bring anything to this particular table.
The claimed speeds is what caught my attention.
TNSR "claims" they can do High Speed Site-to-Site IPsec VPN
"TNSR provides secure high-speed routing solutions at 1, 10, 40, 100 Gbps, and beyond - at a fraction of the price of alternatives." -
@FATeknollogee said in Co-lo + 5 (or more) sites....connect 'em all:
@scottalanmiller said in Co-lo + 5 (or more) sites....connect 'em all:
@FATeknollogee said in Co-lo + 5 (or more) sites....connect 'em all:
@scottalanmiller said in Co-lo + 5 (or more) sites....connect 'em all:
@FATeknollogee said in Co-lo + 5 (or more) sites....connect 'em all:
Hmmm...is this an option...? https://www.tnsr.com/
An option in general? Sure, it's just a vRouter that does IPsec. I'm sure it is good, but you can't run it on an EdgeRouter because it's an OS.
One would have to switch to pfSense if TNSR is a viable option.
I guess the real question I'd have is... why? What about TNSR makes it interesting in any way? Aren't you just looking at replacing tried and true, built in IPSec implementations with this complicated package that is just repacking OpenSwan?
I'm confused what you are trying to achieve. Connecting 5+ sites is the absolute clear use case for normal everyday IPSec on your outside hardware router. This is as "by the textbook" as it gets.
Can you use other VPN tech for this like OpenVPN, yes. Should you? Not really, it has no benefits to you. IPSec is best for this for speed, support, ease of use.
This is not a case where ZT has applicability unless you have needs that haven't been mentioned. Same with TNSR, what would this do other than make simple IPSec really hard and complicated for no reason?
This feels like one of those Aaron threads where he's captivated by all kinds of shiny product pages and misses that he's trying to do something very straightforward that is handled best by the tools that everyone uses for this every day. I'm missing what is driving the attempt to research new, hip, flashy products as none of them seem to bring anything to this particular table.
The claimed speeds is what caught my attention.
TNSR "claims" they can do High Speed Site-to-Site IPsec VPN
"TNSR provides secure high-speed routing solutions at 1, 10, 40, 100 Gbps, and beyond - at a fraction of the price of alternatives."Any vRouter should be able to do this though. All you need for any IPSEC solution is enough offloaded processing power to handle the chosen encryption level.
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@FATeknollogee said in Co-lo + 5 (or more) sites....connect 'em all:
@scottalanmiller said in Co-lo + 5 (or more) sites....connect 'em all:
@FATeknollogee said in Co-lo + 5 (or more) sites....connect 'em all:
@scottalanmiller said in Co-lo + 5 (or more) sites....connect 'em all:
@FATeknollogee said in Co-lo + 5 (or more) sites....connect 'em all:
Hmmm...is this an option...? https://www.tnsr.com/
An option in general? Sure, it's just a vRouter that does IPsec. I'm sure it is good, but you can't run it on an EdgeRouter because it's an OS.
One would have to switch to pfSense if TNSR is a viable option.
I guess the real question I'd have is... why? What about TNSR makes it interesting in any way? Aren't you just looking at replacing tried and true, built in IPSec implementations with this complicated package that is just repacking OpenSwan?
I'm confused what you are trying to achieve. Connecting 5+ sites is the absolute clear use case for normal everyday IPSec on your outside hardware router. This is as "by the textbook" as it gets.
Can you use other VPN tech for this like OpenVPN, yes. Should you? Not really, it has no benefits to you. IPSec is best for this for speed, support, ease of use.
This is not a case where ZT has applicability unless you have needs that haven't been mentioned. Same with TNSR, what would this do other than make simple IPSec really hard and complicated for no reason?
This feels like one of those Aaron threads where he's captivated by all kinds of shiny product pages and misses that he's trying to do something very straightforward that is handled best by the tools that everyone uses for this every day. I'm missing what is driving the attempt to research new, hip, flashy products as none of them seem to bring anything to this particular table.
The claimed speeds is what caught my attention.
TNSR "claims" they can do High Speed Site-to-Site IPsec VPN
"TNSR provides secure high-speed routing solutions at 1, 10, 40, 100 Gbps, and beyond - at a fraction of the price of alternatives."I've had my eye on TNSR since it was new. It's more of a pure router than pfSense and built primarily for performance. They use DPDK, same as StarWind for instance, to get the high I/O performance. As such it's not suitable for low powered devices.
We run pfSense in our colo on standard xeons but our I/O requirements aren't high enough with only 2 gigabit WAN connection to need TNSR. I haven't tested what the limit is but a saturated 100 Mbps OpenVPN link for instance will barely register any CPU movement at all.
Intel has done some test a long time ago (2010) to show what AES-NI can do and what kind of performance you get on regular hardware using standard linux kernel.
As you can see the test below is running 6 VPN tunnels at the same time and the 10Gbps interface becomes saturated.
They use single CPU servers with Xeon E5645 - that CPU is many generations old today. IPsec tunnels are running AES-128-GCM.
https://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/white-papers/aes-ipsec-performance-linux-paper.pdf -
@FATeknollogee said in Co-lo + 5 (or more) sites....connect 'em all:
The claimed speeds is what caught my attention.
TNSR "claims" they can do High Speed Site-to-Site IPsec VPN
"TNSR provides secure high-speed routing solutions at 1, 10, 40, 100 Gbps, and beyond - at a fraction of the price of alternativesAll they are doing is IPSec on the CPU. Anyone doing IPSec there gets the same. TNSR isn't doing anything here at all, it's not even doing special IPSec, it's the same generic one that any Linux desktop will use. Which is good, but generic.
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@JaredBusch said in Co-lo + 5 (or more) sites....connect 'em all:
@FATeknollogee said in Co-lo + 5 (or more) sites....connect 'em all:
@scottalanmiller said in Co-lo + 5 (or more) sites....connect 'em all:
@FATeknollogee said in Co-lo + 5 (or more) sites....connect 'em all:
@scottalanmiller said in Co-lo + 5 (or more) sites....connect 'em all:
@FATeknollogee said in Co-lo + 5 (or more) sites....connect 'em all:
Hmmm...is this an option...? https://www.tnsr.com/
An option in general? Sure, it's just a vRouter that does IPsec. I'm sure it is good, but you can't run it on an EdgeRouter because it's an OS.
One would have to switch to pfSense if TNSR is a viable option.
I guess the real question I'd have is... why? What about TNSR makes it interesting in any way? Aren't you just looking at replacing tried and true, built in IPSec implementations with this complicated package that is just repacking OpenSwan?
I'm confused what you are trying to achieve. Connecting 5+ sites is the absolute clear use case for normal everyday IPSec on your outside hardware router. This is as "by the textbook" as it gets.
Can you use other VPN tech for this like OpenVPN, yes. Should you? Not really, it has no benefits to you. IPSec is best for this for speed, support, ease of use.
This is not a case where ZT has applicability unless you have needs that haven't been mentioned. Same with TNSR, what would this do other than make simple IPSec really hard and complicated for no reason?
This feels like one of those Aaron threads where he's captivated by all kinds of shiny product pages and misses that he's trying to do something very straightforward that is handled best by the tools that everyone uses for this every day. I'm missing what is driving the attempt to research new, hip, flashy products as none of them seem to bring anything to this particular table.
The claimed speeds is what caught my attention.
TNSR "claims" they can do High Speed Site-to-Site IPsec VPN
"TNSR provides secure high-speed routing solutions at 1, 10, 40, 100 Gbps, and beyond - at a fraction of the price of alternatives."Any vRouter should be able to do this though. All you need for any IPSEC solution is enough offloaded processing power to handle the chosen encryption level.
Yeah, this is 100% about selecting the CPU, nothing else.
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@scottalanmiller said in Co-lo + 5 (or more) sites....connect 'em all:
Any vRouter should be able to do this though. All you need for any IPSEC solution is enough offloaded processing power to handle the chosen encryption level.
Yeah, this is 100% about selecting the CPU, nothing else.
That's not entirely true. The problem with high speed I/O is that the kernel eventually becomes a bottleneck. So to get the performance that the CPU is truly capable of you have to basically bypass the kernel.
That's why routers that are using DPDK can get much higher performance.
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Just to show how much DPDK can improve things when you have lots of packets and fast interfaces. This is a performance tests using 4x10GbE.
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@scottalanmiller said in Co-lo + 5 (or more) sites....connect 'em all:
Yeah, this is 100% about selecting the CPU, nothing else.
If that's the case, there should be some "better/more" choices than the ER4?
