DNS Update Issue
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@Dashrender said in DNS Update Issue:
@scottalanmiller said in DNS Update Issue:
@wirestyle22 said in DNS Update Issue:
@scottalanmiller said in DNS Update Issue:
@wirestyle22 said in DNS Update Issue:
Does anyone know what event causes this in Windows?
Cause what, the NIC to flip? I've heard Windows people say that it's just a bug and it does it randomly. I know that it could happen from a DNS server being unavailable for a split second, just long enough to fail a lookup.
That was my initial thought. So what--Linux OSes are checking periodically to see if they are using the first entry and Windows doesn't care until there's a hiccup?
Linux checks every time, I believe. That's the expected behaviour. It always uses its list top to bottom, it doesn't "change" primary just because it wants to.
See this just seems odd to me - why add in that delay every time. The way windows does it - once it flips it doesn't flip back until the current DNS server blips - makes sense. Stay stable, stay on what is working.
There shouldn't be an issue with this - assuming your DNS setup is correct.But flipping back each and every time adds latency to your DNS queries for at best a minor benefit (again, assuming a correctly setup DNS environment).
See, you say "little benefit" in the midst of a whole thread about how Linux works beautifully because of this and Windows is flaky and unreliable. Can't be both. Either Windows works and all of that is BS, or clearly this isn't a trivial thing. The DNS delay only happens when your set primary is down, which is almost never in the modern world. If you have issues that your DNS is always down, stop using it as your primary.
You are using something that isn't a real world problem and acting like it affects someone when it doesn't, while ignoring a real world problem that has clearly impacted nearly everyone in this thread (and others, this has come up multiple times in the last few weeks alone) that this behaviour solves.
So I think it's pretty clear why Linux chooses to work the way that it does, and extremely clear why it is what we'd always prefer.
The Windows way only makes sense under the assumption that you always are using internal DNS, not public, and that you have only local DNS servers in your pool. It's most useful only under a very specific set of circumstances where you are going with AD and LAN-based, and you have redundancy locally, not redundancy over a WAN link like many SMBs do.
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Well - frankly - I have no clue how much of a real issue this is any more. I haven't had incorrectly setup DNS in ages.
I suppose I could setup my PC with google for a secondary, then what - make a script that tries pinging one of my internal resources by DNS name and see if/ever it fails?
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@scottalanmiller said in DNS Update Issue:
(and others, this has come up multiple times in the last few weeks alone)
It has? where?
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@scottalanmiller said in DNS Update Issue:
It's most useful only under a very specific set of circumstances where you are going with AD and LAN-based, and you have redundancy locally, not redundancy over a WAN link like many SMBs do.
Or the opposite - home users who generally only have public DNS servers. or travelers who also only generally have public DNS servers.
In fact, this is only an issue for those who do have internal DNS servers with internal only records.
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@Dashrender said in DNS Update Issue:
Well - frankly - I have no clue how much of a real issue this is any more. I haven't had incorrectly setup DNS in ages.
I suppose I could setup my PC with google for a secondary, then what - make a script that tries pinging one of my internal resources by DNS name and see if/ever it fails?
It's enough of an issue that everyone recommends not having public failover from clients because they perceive it as simply not workable. So either it's actually a big deal, or all that advice is wrong.
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@Dashrender said in DNS Update Issue:
@scottalanmiller said in DNS Update Issue:
(and others, this has come up multiple times in the last few weeks alone)
It has? where?
ML and on Telegram chats
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@Dashrender said in DNS Update Issue:
@scottalanmiller said in DNS Update Issue:
It's most useful only under a very specific set of circumstances where you are going with AD and LAN-based, and you have redundancy locally, not redundancy over a WAN link like many SMBs do.
Or the opposite - home users who generally only have public DNS servers. or travelers who also only generally have public DNS servers.
In fact, this is only an issue for those who do have internal DNS servers with internal only records.
Home users only ave their router. Because that is what routers do by default.
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@JaredBusch said in DNS Update Issue:
@Dashrender said in DNS Update Issue:
@scottalanmiller said in DNS Update Issue:
It's most useful only under a very specific set of circumstances where you are going with AD and LAN-based, and you have redundancy locally, not redundancy over a WAN link like many SMBs do.
Or the opposite - home users who generally only have public DNS servers. or travelers who also only generally have public DNS servers.
In fact, this is only an issue for those who do have internal DNS servers with internal only records.
Home users only ave their router. Because that is what routers do by default.
True - so it's a non issue as there is no secondary to failover to. Frequently the same for most businesses with free WiFi as well.
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@Dashrender said in DNS Update Issue:
@scottalanmiller said in DNS Update Issue:
It's most useful only under a very specific set of circumstances where you are going with AD and LAN-based, and you have redundancy locally, not redundancy over a WAN link like many SMBs do.
Or the opposite - home users who generally only have public DNS servers. or travelers who also only generally have public DNS servers.
In fact, this is only an issue for those who do have internal DNS servers with internal only records.
It's only a benefit there. For people using public, you want the Linux way. Really for everyone you want the Linux way except a very niche group of people in medium or larger businesses that somehow have non-stop DNS problems.
The thing is is that when the Linux way fails, it fails "soft" and no one notices because the negatives are SO minor. But when the Windows way fails, it fails "hard" and causes things to not work potentially.
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@scottalanmiller said in DNS Update Issue:
@Dashrender said in DNS Update Issue:
Well - frankly - I have no clue how much of a real issue this is any more. I haven't had incorrectly setup DNS in ages.
I suppose I could setup my PC with google for a secondary, then what - make a script that tries pinging one of my internal resources by DNS name and see if/ever it fails?
It's enough of an issue that everyone recommends not having public failover from clients because they perceive it as simply not workable. So either it's actually a big deal, or all that advice is wrong.
I hear what you are saying - and at the moment I can't muster the strength to fight over which way is better - Linux vs Windows for DNS...
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Well, I guess I'm setting up a BIND server tonight
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@scottalanmiller said in DNS Update Issue:
@Dashrender said in DNS Update Issue:
@scottalanmiller said in DNS Update Issue:
It's most useful only under a very specific set of circumstances where you are going with AD and LAN-based, and you have redundancy locally, not redundancy over a WAN link like many SMBs do.
Or the opposite - home users who generally only have public DNS servers. or travelers who also only generally have public DNS servers.
In fact, this is only an issue for those who do have internal DNS servers with internal only records.
It's only a benefit there. For people using public, you want the Linux way. Really for everyone you want the Linux way except a very niche group of people in medium or larger businesses that somehow have non-stop DNS problems.
The thing is is that when the Linux way fails, it fails "soft" and no one notices because the negatives are SO minor. But when the Windows way fails, it fails "hard" and causes things to not work potentially.
You're making that claim - why? because you believe that using a public DNS should be totally acceptable for client machines as a secondary DNS?
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@wirestyle22 said in DNS Update Issue:
Well, I guess I'm setting up a BIND server tonight
I like dnsmasq much more. Easier to setup as it's all in one config file imo.
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@travisdh1 said in DNS Update Issue:
@wirestyle22 said in DNS Update Issue:
Well, I guess I'm setting up a BIND server tonight
I like dnsmasq much more. Easier to setup as it's all in one config file imo.
I thought BIND was the standard or this old info
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@Dashrender said in DNS Update Issue:
@scottalanmiller said in DNS Update Issue:
@Dashrender said in DNS Update Issue:
Well - frankly - I have no clue how much of a real issue this is any more. I haven't had incorrectly setup DNS in ages.
I suppose I could setup my PC with google for a secondary, then what - make a script that tries pinging one of my internal resources by DNS name and see if/ever it fails?
It's enough of an issue that everyone recommends not having public failover from clients because they perceive it as simply not workable. So either it's actually a big deal, or all that advice is wrong.
I hear what you are saying - and at the moment I can't muster the strength to fight over which way is better - Linux vs Windows for DNS...
Well it was you who argued that the Linux way caused problems. I didn't think it was even a question, it was a slam dunk of "doing it right" to the point that people had called the Windows system a "bug". You thought that the reliability and performance of the Linux was didn't seem worth it. Not sure why you felt that way, but it was you alone who was arguing for the Windows "stick with failovers, no matter how bad they are until they fail or you reboot" way.
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@wirestyle22 said in DNS Update Issue:
@travisdh1 said in DNS Update Issue:
@wirestyle22 said in DNS Update Issue:
Well, I guess I'm setting up a BIND server tonight
I like dnsmasq much more. Easier to setup as it's all in one config file imo.
I thought BIND was the standard or this old info
It is because dnsmasq has/had some sort of limitation. I forget what that limitation is/was tho.
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@travisdh1 said in DNS Update Issue:
@wirestyle22 said in DNS Update Issue:
@travisdh1 said in DNS Update Issue:
@wirestyle22 said in DNS Update Issue:
Well, I guess I'm setting up a BIND server tonight
I like dnsmasq much more. Easier to setup as it's all in one config file imo.
I thought BIND was the standard or this old info
It is because dnsmasq has/had some sort of limitation. I forget what that limitation is/was tho.
Interesting. I'll have to read about it.
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@scottalanmiller said in DNS Update Issue:
@Dashrender said in DNS Update Issue:
@scottalanmiller said in DNS Update Issue:
@Dashrender said in DNS Update Issue:
Well - frankly - I have no clue how much of a real issue this is any more. I haven't had incorrectly setup DNS in ages.
I suppose I could setup my PC with google for a secondary, then what - make a script that tries pinging one of my internal resources by DNS name and see if/ever it fails?
It's enough of an issue that everyone recommends not having public failover from clients because they perceive it as simply not workable. So either it's actually a big deal, or all that advice is wrong.
I hear what you are saying - and at the moment I can't muster the strength to fight over which way is better - Linux vs Windows for DNS...
Well it was you who argued that the Linux way caused problems. I didn't think it was even a question, it was a slam dunk of "doing it right" to the point that people had called the Windows system a "bug". You thought that the reliability and performance of the Linux was didn't seem worth it. Not sure why you felt that way, but it was you alone who was arguing for the Windows "stick with failovers, no matter how bad they are until they fail or you reboot" way.
What? I didn't say it caused problems - only that it could cause a delay in the case where DNS1 was down.
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@Dashrender said in DNS Update Issue:
@scottalanmiller said in DNS Update Issue:
@Dashrender said in DNS Update Issue:
@scottalanmiller said in DNS Update Issue:
It's most useful only under a very specific set of circumstances where you are going with AD and LAN-based, and you have redundancy locally, not redundancy over a WAN link like many SMBs do.
Or the opposite - home users who generally only have public DNS servers. or travelers who also only generally have public DNS servers.
In fact, this is only an issue for those who do have internal DNS servers with internal only records.
It's only a benefit there. For people using public, you want the Linux way. Really for everyone you want the Linux way except a very niche group of people in medium or larger businesses that somehow have non-stop DNS problems.
The thing is is that when the Linux way fails, it fails "soft" and no one notices because the negatives are SO minor. But when the Windows way fails, it fails "hard" and causes things to not work potentially.
You're making that claim - why? because you believe that using a public DNS should be totally acceptable for client machines as a secondary DNS?
Of course it SHOULD be acceptable. How the hell is it okay for Windows to be so broken that reasonable failovers, whether secondary or tertiary or whatever, have to be avoided because the platform is flaky and doesn't behave predictably or usefully?
And it doesn't matter that public is in use here. This applies equally to other internal servers, too. What if you failed to a slow DNS over a throttled WAN link and now are stuck with it because Windows never goes back to local primary?
Don't try to add "has to be public" to cover up a clear problem. You are missing the big picture, that one system works well and one works poorly.
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@Dashrender said in DNS Update Issue:
@scottalanmiller said in DNS Update Issue:
@wirestyle22 said in DNS Update Issue:
@scottalanmiller said in DNS Update Issue:
@wirestyle22 said in DNS Update Issue:
Does anyone know what event causes this in Windows?
Cause what, the NIC to flip? I've heard Windows people say that it's just a bug and it does it randomly. I know that it could happen from a DNS server being unavailable for a split second, just long enough to fail a lookup.
That was my initial thought. So what--Linux OSes are checking periodically to see if they are using the first entry and Windows doesn't care until there's a hiccup?
Linux checks every time, I believe. That's the expected behaviour. It always uses its list top to bottom, it doesn't "change" primary just because it wants to.
See this just seems odd to me - why add in that delay every time.
You said that it seemed odd to you, "why add in that delay every time."
It shouldn't be odd, it should be super obvious as by far the best way. And that "delay every time" is an imperceptible delay .001% of the time. It only seems like "Every time" if you assume random DNS choices like people keep saying that Windows makes (I'm not convinced of this). Since Linux DNS is deterministic, it only adds that minuscule delay under failure conditions which in this day and age are super, duper rare (unless, apparently, you have Windows then the desktop seems to inject a server-like failure condition on its own.)
You make it sound like this is a foolish approach, but it fixes the problems everyone is reporting with essentially no downsides.
