Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World



  • @Obsolesce

    Here is what it comes down to...

    If you truly believe you found the one exception to the rule, and that truly weren't tricked by FakeRAID like everyone else... then state why. You've never stated any reason that would even hint that this might not be the case. If you have that secret information, why are you holding it back? And if you don't have that information, why do you feel you are the incredibly unlikely exception when you are describing the exact expected FakeRAID case?



  • @obsolesce said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:

    If I bought one of those motherboards from Newegg, I can do RAID1 for example via the motherboard. End of discussion. That's my point. You said it can't be done on 99% of motherboards, I said you can.

    WTF are you going on about?

    This is FakeRAID, it's "RAID" that exist with that motherboard specifically. If you lost the motherboard, you'd have to buy the exact board, with the exact firmware and reinstall your drives, CPU and RAM to get your array back and working.

    FakeRAID works exclusively within the OS, and has nothing to do with a raid management software like you'd see with hardware RAID or true Software RAID.

    Software RAID works across any OS, Linux, Windows and (probably) MAC all include this. It's hardware agnostic and could in theory allow you to mount an array to recover data.

    Hardware RAID is a separate card where your disks get connected too, and pre the OS boot phase you'd configure and manage your array.



  • Configuring SoftwareRAID on Windows isn't FakeRAID, it's just a bad version of SoftwareRAID. . .


  • Vendor

    @dustinb3403 said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:

    Software RAID works across any OS, Linux, Windows and (probably) MAC all include this. It's hardware agnostic and could in theory allow you to mount an array to recover data.

    This big thing to be careful of is drive swaps with software RAID. If you can't flag the drive to replace (especially dangerous with SAS Expanders, and JBODs where the numbering schemes sometimes start with 0 sometimes with 1).



  • @storageninja said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:

    @dustinb3403 said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:

    Software RAID works across any OS, Linux, Windows and (probably) MAC all include this. It's hardware agnostic and could in theory allow you to mount an array to recover data.

    This big thing to be careful of is drive swaps with software RAID. If you can't flag the drive to replace (especially dangerous with SAS Expanders, and JBODs where the numbering schemes sometimes start with 0 sometimes with 1).

    Well yeah, but that is array management and numbering. You need to know which disk on screen is which disk physically in the box.

    What a lot of SoftwareRAID (MD and MDADM) lacks is the identification of the disks, Synology does this but I'm sure it wasn't an easy feat.



  • @dustinb3403 said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:

    This is FakeRAID, it's "RAID" that exist with that motherboard specifically. If you lost the motherboard, you'd have to buy the exact board, with the exact firmware and reinstall your drives, CPU and RAM to get your array back and working.

    That makes it sound like it is "on" the motherboard. It's important that it is not "on" the motherboard, but 100% in software. But that software checks to make sure, in most cases, that you also have a matching motherboard. It's a crippling, a penalty, not a feature. It's less, not more.

    OS Software RAID would work with any motherboard or hardware. FakeRAID can, but most does not.



  • @dustinb3403 said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:

    Configuring SoftwareRAID on Windows isn't FakeRAID, it's just a bad version of SoftwareRAID. . .

    Correct. But important to remember that Windows software RAID is still better than any FakeRAID.



  • @storageninja said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:

    @dustinb3403 said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:

    Software RAID works across any OS, Linux, Windows and (probably) MAC all include this. It's hardware agnostic and could in theory allow you to mount an array to recover data.

    This big thing to be careful of is drive swaps with software RAID. If you can't flag the drive to replace (especially dangerous with SAS Expanders, and JBODs where the numbering schemes sometimes start with 0 sometimes with 1).

    Sometimes you can. All depends on the system that you have.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:

    @obsolesce said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:

    If I bought one of those motherboards from Newegg, I can do RAID1 for example via the motherboard. End of discussion.

    Except you can't and didn't. Hardly end of discussion. You missed the point that they try to trick you into thinking exactly what you are thinking.

    The motherboard didn't do a single freaking thing. You did it all by installing RAID software separately.

    Yes, it is end of discussion... What I am getting is RAID, fakeRAID or not, it's still RAID. My disks are redundant, that's the point. And I'm getting it via the Motherboard.

    In an actual example I lived through, I had two hard drives, in a RAID1. One drive died, and everything still worked. Therefore, I had the inexpensive disks, and there were in a redundant array, hence RAID.

    So yes, I had a regular motherboard (one of the thousands (with RAID) in the earlier Newegg screenshot), and yes, it did a RAID. I used RAID1, but it also did 0, 5, and 10.



  • @obsolesce said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:

    Except you can't and didn't. Hardly end of discussion. You missed the point that they try to trick you into thinking exactly what you are

    When you setup this system, did you setup the array from within Windows or from within an array management utility?



  • @dustinb3403 said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:

    @obsolesce said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:

    Except you can't and didn't. Hardly end of discussion. You missed the point that they try to trick you into thinking exactly what you are

    When you setup this system, did you setup the array from within Windows or from within an array management utility?

    I said it's built in to the motherboard, this whole thing is about doing RAID from 99% of the consumer motherboards out there. So obvously not from within Windows, but using the motherboard utility after POST, before the OS loads. I think CTRL+R or I or someithing while its booting, it's been awhile.



  • @obsolesce said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:

    @dustinb3403 said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:

    @obsolesce said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:

    Except you can't and didn't. Hardly end of discussion. You missed the point that they try to trick you into thinking exactly what you are

    When you setup this system, did you setup the array from within Windows or from within an array management utility?

    I said it's built in to the motherboard, this whole thing is about doing RAID from 99% of the consumer motherboards out there. So obvously not from within Windows, but using the motherboard utility after POST, before the OS loads. I think CTRL+R or I or someithing while its booting, it's been awhile.

    And Windows only saw the "1" disk, I'm not shocked, but I also wouldn't hold my breath.



    1. Buy a regular ass motherboard from Newegg, build your PC.
    2. Hook up some hard drives.
    3. As the computer is booting up, press the built-in key combo CTRL+whatever to enter RAID setup screen (that is built into the motherboard)
    4. Set up RAID1 for example.
    5. Now you have RAID1, which is RAID. You now have a redundant array of inexpensive disks, RAID1. From your typical motherboard from Newegg. Yes, it is still RAID... even if it's technically fakeRAID, rainbowRAID, hardwareRAID, softwareRAID, whatever... it's still RAID.


  • @obsolesce said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:

    I said it's built in to the motherboard,

    Right, and what we had said, before you jumped in, is that it is not built into the motherboard, but is designed to look like it is to trick people.

    So all it sounds like you are saying, is that you were tricked and don't believe the industry that you got tricked.



  • @obsolesce said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:

    ... this whole thing is about doing RAID from 99% of the consumer motherboards out there. So obvously not from within Windows, but using the motherboard utility after POST, before the OS loads. I think CTRL+R or I or someithing while its booting, it's been awhile.

    None of that, not one bit, suggests in any way that there is RAID on the motherboard. Do you not see that by constantly stating how you accept FakeRAID as being hardware, that you are completely reinforcing our belief that you have been tricked by a FakeRAID implementation? If you understood FakeRAID, you'd understand why nothing you said suggests hardware RAID at all. That you think you are telling us that the motherboard has the RAID, is the very thing most convincing to us that it is not.



  • @obsolesce said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:

    1. Buy a regular ass motherboard from Newegg, build your PC.
    2. Hook up some hard drives.
    3. As the computer is booting up, press the built-in key combo CTRL+whatever to enter RAID setup screen (that is built into the motherboard)
    4. Set up RAID1 for example.
    5. Now you have RAID1, which is RAID. You now have a redundant array of inexpensive disks, RAID1.

    You were correct this far.*

    From your typical motherboard from Newegg. Yes, it is still RAID... even if it's technically fakeRAID, rainbowRAID, hardwareRAID, softwareRAID, whatever... it's still RAID.

    Now you are off the deep end.

    It is NOT from the motherboard. Period. And no one said, ever, that it wasn't RAID. That's an argument you are having purely with yourself. All that we ever said, and all that you tried to correct, was that the RAID was hardware on the motherboard.

    Which we know it is not.



  • The problem here is that all of the rest of us, in both threads, were having discussions about motherboards.

    @Obsolesce is thinking he's having a discussion about RAID, not motherboards, but then keeps saying, very explicitly "from the motherboard". But he's thinking that someone has argued with him that there is no RAID, which never happened. So he's going down rabbit holes and not understanding that we are all, and always were even before he jumped in, discussing the lack of RAID in the hardware, not a lack of RAID overall.

    In the original thread, the user has gotten RAID, even without it being on the motherboard. Which alone should make it clear why we were talking about hardware, not the RAID software, being the issue. Now that he has software RAID in no way means he got it from the motherboard.



  • It's like I bought a car from a Ford dealer, and they advertised that the car came with candy. But when I bought the car, it had no candy.

    But then I drove it to the grocery store and bought loads of candy.

    Then I went around stating that my car came with candy. Obviously that is false. The hardware of the car had no candy. I bought the candy separately and added it to the car's interior myself. It's still not part of the car, it's just a payload that the car carries.

    No one ever thought that Fords couldn't carry candy. We are just all saying that candy is not part of the car and doesn't come with it. But obviously you are free to buy some and drive it around whenever you want.



  • @scottalanmiller said in IDE Raid- Is there a Benefit?:

    Which is worth pointing out that 99.99% of motherboards don't have RAID, on desktops. And 98% don't have it on servers.

    This is what I'm debating, this "fact" here. Not about the type of RAID.

    You buy a motherboard from Newegg, you get RAID. How it gives it to you, besides the point. Stop putting words in my mouth, really.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:

    It's like I bought a car from a Ford dealer, and they advertised that the car came with candy. But when I bought the car, it had no candy.
    But then I drove it to the grocery store and bought loads of candy.
    Then I went around stating that my car came with candy. Obviously that is false. The hardware of the car had no candy. I bought the candy separately and added it to the car's interior myself. It's still not part of the car, it's just a payload that the car carries.
    No one ever thought that Fords couldn't carry candy. We are just all saying that candy is not part of the car and doesn't come with it. But obviously you are free to buy some and drive it around whenever you want.

    I don't see how this relates to this conversation at all. Please explain to us how the disks get in a redundant array if not from the motherboard. I've done this, too, on a home computer. The RAID comes from somewhere, and it's nothing added by any other component other than the motherboard. It's not windows that does it, it's not the RAM, it's not the power supply... it comes from the motherboard, somehow.



  • What @scottalanmiller and I are saying is your motherboard, the one where you went in and did CTRL + <something> is a pixie-dust magic version of RAID.

    It's not hardware raid. It's a piece of code that is operated within your motherboard (and by the CPU on your board).

    It's FakeRAID because it isn't like Windows RAID (what is the implemented title for Windows RAID?) and it certainly isn't the MD version of SoftwareRAID from the Linux world.

    Software RAID are implemented post OS startup and installation if you are lucky you might do it pre-install (XCP-NG is experimenting with Software RAID levels at installation time atm RAID1 only)

    MDADM is post install, so you'd run from a single disk, and then you'd have your additional disks that you want to create an array from. (1 disk to boot 4 disks for storage). sOBR10 the 4 disks and you'd be off to the races.

    It's something built and distributed to make you think you have the industry standard versions of RAID.

    The utility you've used on this board is controlled from the Motherboard, thus it's FakeRAID. It "does" RAID but it's such a bad idea to use it that you'd be better off adding a third disk and using proper SoftwareRAID for wherever you want your data to reside.



  • @dustinb3403 said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:

    It's not hardware raid. It's a piece of code that is operated within your motherboard (and by the CPU on your board).

    So it DOES come from the motherboard?



  • @bnrstnr said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:

    @dustinb3403 said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:

    It's not hardware raid. It's a piece of code that is operated within your motherboard (and by the CPU on your board).

    So it DOES come from the motherboard?

    It has too, there is no where else for it to reside and run.

    All of the disks are also connected to the motherboard directly via the SATA ports.



  • @dustinb3403 said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:

    What @scottalanmiller and I are saying is your motherboard, the one where you went in and did CTRL + <something> is a pixie-dust magic version of RAID.

    It's not hardware raid. It's a piece of code that is operated within your motherboard (and by the CPU on your board).

    It's FakeRAID because it isn't like Windows RAID (what is the implemented title for Windows RAID?) and it certainly isn't the MD version of SoftwareRAID from the Linux world.

    Software RAID are implemented post OS startup and installation if you are lucky you might do it pre-install (XCP-NG is experimenting with Software RAID levels at installation time atm RAID1 only)

    MDADM is post install, so you'd run from a single disk, and then you'd have your additional disks that you want to create an array from. (1 disk to boot 4 disks for storage). sOBR10 the 4 disks and you'd be off to the races.

    It's something built and distributed to make you think you have the industry standard versions of RAID.

    The utility you've used on this board is controlled from the Motherboard, thus it's FakeRAID. It "does" RAID but it's such a bad idea to use it that you'd be better off adding a third disk and using proper SoftwareRAID for wherever you want your data to reside.

    The thing is, FakeRAID is RAID... nobody gives a shit here what kind of RAID it is. Don't listen to Scott, the kind of RAID it was I never was debating. That was all stuff he was shoving in my mouth.

    The fact of the matter is that FakeRAID or not, it's coming from the motherboard... which most motherboards give you.

    Are you getting the FakeRAID from the powersupply? No. From the motherboard? Yes.



  • @obsolesce said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:

    Are you getting the FakeRAID from the powersupply? No. From the motherboard? Yes.

    So yes, 99% of motherboards DO have raid (even if it's FakeRAID, it's still RAID). This was my original point.

    If you go back and read my posts, you'll see the type of RAID was never part of my point. That was what Scott was saying was my point, confusing everyone else including himself.



  • @obsolesce said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:

    The thing is, FakeRAID is RAID... nobody gives a shit here what kind of RAID it is.

    But this is critical to know the difference. Raid that is provided by some utility that is baked into the motherboard is predominantly more risky than the other options you have. (software and hardware).

    Because the utility is way under developed (and used) compared to your hardware controllers and true software raid.

    It is critically important to know the difference.



  • @dustinb3403 said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:

    But this is critical to know the difference. Raid that is provided by some utility that is baked into the motherboard is predominantly more risky than the other options you have. (software and hardware).

    Correct. I agree.

    @dustinb3403 said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:

    Because the utility is way under developed (and used) compared to your hardware controllers and true software raid.

    Yeah.

    @dustinb3403 said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:

    It is critically important to know the difference.

    I have always known the difference. This was never about me not knowing the difference between hardware/software/fake RAID.

    Regardless of what kind of RAID it is, you get it with your motherboard. That's what this was always about.



  • @obsolesce said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:

    Yes, it is end of discussion... What I am getting is RAID, fakeRAID or not, it's still RAID.

    And? That very clearly has nothing to do with the discussion which was that you believed your RAID was coming from the hardware, not from software like we said.

    So it's not even related to the discussion. If you believe this ends the discussion, I believe it concedes the point that you were confused and never knew what we had been talking about. Because it's very clear that it's not even related.



  • Ive used this for desktops before at home, but not with a server.
    Sometimes there is an issue with the os seeing these onmobo raid devices as a single device.
    For example, if you setup a raid1 through mobo raid, then load a Centos iso and attempt to install to your raid 1 device, you will likely find that the raid1 device isn't seen by the installer, and you will still see two hdd to choose for installation. Another thing you can run into is the raid device will be available during installation showing as a single device, you install to it, reboot, and then get No Operating System found error after POST.



  • @bnrstnr said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:

    Please explain to us how the disks get in a redundant array if not from the motherboard.

    Software RAID does this. It did it before there was hardware RAID at all. Hardware RAID is the more recent type. Old, but more recent.

    It's hard to know what needs to be explained, I'm not sure why you feel hardware is needed. But I'll attempt...

    RAID is simply a form of drive interface abstraction, but that does certain things beyond the abstraction. So it is most similar to Logical Volume Management. LVM does not do RAID, but they both abstract in a similar way, consuming drives, presenting drives.

    RAID is always in software, even when it is on dedicated hardware. So anything that a hardware RAID card can do, you can do without it as well. But people want hardware RAID for various reasons - easier moves, offloading CPU work, more RAM, special features from the implementation, ease of use, etc.

    RAID in pure software is a part of every operating system in production use for the last few decades (Netware was the last one without it.) Windows NT had it in 1996 if not earlier. Linux by around the same era. AIX, Solaris, HP-UX, etc. all before Windows.

    In fact, outside of the Windows world, hardware RAID is unheard of. NAS and SAN of all sizes do it in software. All big iron servers do it only in software. It is hardware that is the niche, not the norm.

    So what happens is that you have a software driver on your OS (integrated or third party, doesn't matter) that grabs the drives, does it's RAID magic, and then presents it on to the storage subsystems above it as a single drive. It's not actually very complicated once you see it in action, it's pretty basic. Very simple code if just doing say RAID 0 or 1. That's what makes those so reliable, it's just so simple.

    Then the storage above the RAID layer sees a single, new drive. The one made by the RAID system. And it treats that like the attached hardware and acts normally.


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