Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World
-
@storageninja said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
@dustinb3403 said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
Software RAID works across any OS, Linux, Windows and (probably) MAC all include this. It's hardware agnostic and could in theory allow you to mount an array to recover data.
This big thing to be careful of is drive swaps with software RAID. If you can't flag the drive to replace (especially dangerous with SAS Expanders, and JBODs where the numbering schemes sometimes start with 0 sometimes with 1).
Well yeah, but that is array management and numbering. You need to know which disk on screen is which disk physically in the box.
What a lot of SoftwareRAID (MD and MDADM) lacks is the identification of the disks, Synology does this but I'm sure it wasn't an easy feat.
-
@dustinb3403 said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
This is FakeRAID, it's "RAID" that exist with that motherboard specifically. If you lost the motherboard, you'd have to buy the exact board, with the exact firmware and reinstall your drives, CPU and RAM to get your array back and working.
That makes it sound like it is "on" the motherboard. It's important that it is not "on" the motherboard, but 100% in software. But that software checks to make sure, in most cases, that you also have a matching motherboard. It's a crippling, a penalty, not a feature. It's less, not more.
OS Software RAID would work with any motherboard or hardware. FakeRAID can, but most does not.
-
@dustinb3403 said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
Configuring SoftwareRAID on Windows isn't FakeRAID, it's just a bad version of SoftwareRAID. . .
Correct. But important to remember that Windows software RAID is still better than any FakeRAID.
-
@storageninja said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
@dustinb3403 said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
Software RAID works across any OS, Linux, Windows and (probably) MAC all include this. It's hardware agnostic and could in theory allow you to mount an array to recover data.
This big thing to be careful of is drive swaps with software RAID. If you can't flag the drive to replace (especially dangerous with SAS Expanders, and JBODs where the numbering schemes sometimes start with 0 sometimes with 1).
Sometimes you can. All depends on the system that you have.
-
@scottalanmiller said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
@obsolesce said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
If I bought one of those motherboards from Newegg, I can do RAID1 for example via the motherboard. End of discussion.
Except you can't and didn't. Hardly end of discussion. You missed the point that they try to trick you into thinking exactly what you are thinking.
The motherboard didn't do a single freaking thing. You did it all by installing RAID software separately.
Yes, it is end of discussion... What I am getting is RAID, fakeRAID or not, it's still RAID. My disks are redundant, that's the point. And I'm getting it via the Motherboard.
In an actual example I lived through, I had two hard drives, in a RAID1. One drive died, and everything still worked. Therefore, I had the inexpensive disks, and there were in a redundant array, hence RAID.
So yes, I had a regular motherboard (one of the thousands (with RAID) in the earlier Newegg screenshot), and yes, it did a RAID. I used RAID1, but it also did 0, 5, and 10.
-
@obsolesce said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
Except you can't and didn't. Hardly end of discussion. You missed the point that they try to trick you into thinking exactly what you are
When you setup this system, did you setup the array from within Windows or from within an array management utility?
-
@dustinb3403 said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
@obsolesce said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
Except you can't and didn't. Hardly end of discussion. You missed the point that they try to trick you into thinking exactly what you are
When you setup this system, did you setup the array from within Windows or from within an array management utility?
I said it's built in to the motherboard, this whole thing is about doing RAID from 99% of the consumer motherboards out there. So obvously not from within Windows, but using the motherboard utility after POST, before the OS loads. I think CTRL+R or I or someithing while its booting, it's been awhile.
-
@obsolesce said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
@dustinb3403 said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
@obsolesce said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
Except you can't and didn't. Hardly end of discussion. You missed the point that they try to trick you into thinking exactly what you are
When you setup this system, did you setup the array from within Windows or from within an array management utility?
I said it's built in to the motherboard, this whole thing is about doing RAID from 99% of the consumer motherboards out there. So obvously not from within Windows, but using the motherboard utility after POST, before the OS loads. I think CTRL+R or I or someithing while its booting, it's been awhile.
And Windows only saw the "1" disk, I'm not shocked, but I also wouldn't hold my breath.
-
- Buy a regular ass motherboard from Newegg, build your PC.
- Hook up some hard drives.
- As the computer is booting up, press the built-in key combo CTRL+whatever to enter RAID setup screen (that is built into the motherboard)
- Set up RAID1 for example.
- Now you have RAID1, which is RAID. You now have a redundant array of inexpensive disks, RAID1. From your typical motherboard from Newegg. Yes, it is still RAID... even if it's technically fakeRAID, rainbowRAID, hardwareRAID, softwareRAID, whatever... it's still RAID.
-
@obsolesce said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
I said it's built in to the motherboard,
Right, and what we had said, before you jumped in, is that it is not built into the motherboard, but is designed to look like it is to trick people.
So all it sounds like you are saying, is that you were tricked and don't believe the industry that you got tricked.
-
@obsolesce said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
... this whole thing is about doing RAID from 99% of the consumer motherboards out there. So obvously not from within Windows, but using the motherboard utility after POST, before the OS loads. I think CTRL+R or I or someithing while its booting, it's been awhile.
None of that, not one bit, suggests in any way that there is RAID on the motherboard. Do you not see that by constantly stating how you accept FakeRAID as being hardware, that you are completely reinforcing our belief that you have been tricked by a FakeRAID implementation? If you understood FakeRAID, you'd understand why nothing you said suggests hardware RAID at all. That you think you are telling us that the motherboard has the RAID, is the very thing most convincing to us that it is not.
-
@obsolesce said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
- Buy a regular ass motherboard from Newegg, build your PC.
- Hook up some hard drives.
- As the computer is booting up, press the built-in key combo CTRL+whatever to enter RAID setup screen (that is built into the motherboard)
- Set up RAID1 for example.
- Now you have RAID1, which is RAID. You now have a redundant array of inexpensive disks, RAID1.
You were correct this far.*
From your typical motherboard from Newegg. Yes, it is still RAID... even if it's technically fakeRAID, rainbowRAID, hardwareRAID, softwareRAID, whatever... it's still RAID.
Now you are off the deep end.
It is NOT from the motherboard. Period. And no one said, ever, that it wasn't RAID. That's an argument you are having purely with yourself. All that we ever said, and all that you tried to correct, was that the RAID was hardware on the motherboard.
Which we know it is not.
-
The problem here is that all of the rest of us, in both threads, were having discussions about motherboards.
@Obsolesce is thinking he's having a discussion about RAID, not motherboards, but then keeps saying, very explicitly "from the motherboard". But he's thinking that someone has argued with him that there is no RAID, which never happened. So he's going down rabbit holes and not understanding that we are all, and always were even before he jumped in, discussing the lack of RAID in the hardware, not a lack of RAID overall.
In the original thread, the user has gotten RAID, even without it being on the motherboard. Which alone should make it clear why we were talking about hardware, not the RAID software, being the issue. Now that he has software RAID in no way means he got it from the motherboard.
-
It's like I bought a car from a Ford dealer, and they advertised that the car came with candy. But when I bought the car, it had no candy.
But then I drove it to the grocery store and bought loads of candy.
Then I went around stating that my car came with candy. Obviously that is false. The hardware of the car had no candy. I bought the candy separately and added it to the car's interior myself. It's still not part of the car, it's just a payload that the car carries.
No one ever thought that Fords couldn't carry candy. We are just all saying that candy is not part of the car and doesn't come with it. But obviously you are free to buy some and drive it around whenever you want.
-
@scottalanmiller said in IDE Raid- Is there a Benefit?:
Which is worth pointing out that 99.99% of motherboards don't have RAID, on desktops. And 98% don't have it on servers.
This is what I'm debating, this "fact" here. Not about the type of RAID.
You buy a motherboard from Newegg, you get RAID. How it gives it to you, besides the point. Stop putting words in my mouth, really.
-
@scottalanmiller said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
It's like I bought a car from a Ford dealer, and they advertised that the car came with candy. But when I bought the car, it had no candy.
But then I drove it to the grocery store and bought loads of candy.
Then I went around stating that my car came with candy. Obviously that is false. The hardware of the car had no candy. I bought the candy separately and added it to the car's interior myself. It's still not part of the car, it's just a payload that the car carries.
No one ever thought that Fords couldn't carry candy. We are just all saying that candy is not part of the car and doesn't come with it. But obviously you are free to buy some and drive it around whenever you want.I don't see how this relates to this conversation at all. Please explain to us how the disks get in a redundant array if not from the motherboard. I've done this, too, on a home computer. The RAID comes from somewhere, and it's nothing added by any other component other than the motherboard. It's not windows that does it, it's not the RAM, it's not the power supply... it comes from the motherboard, somehow.
-
What @scottalanmiller and I are saying is your motherboard, the one where you went in and did CTRL + <something> is a pixie-dust magic version of RAID.
It's not hardware raid. It's a piece of code that is operated within your motherboard (and by the CPU on your board).
It's FakeRAID because it isn't like Windows RAID (what is the implemented title for Windows RAID?) and it certainly isn't the MD version of SoftwareRAID from the Linux world.
Software RAID are implemented post OS startup and installation if you are lucky you might do it pre-install (XCP-NG is experimenting with Software RAID levels at installation time atm RAID1 only)
MDADM is post install, so you'd run from a single disk, and then you'd have your additional disks that you want to create an array from. (1 disk to boot 4 disks for storage). sOBR10 the 4 disks and you'd be off to the races.
It's something built and distributed to make you think you have the industry standard versions of RAID.
The utility you've used on this board is controlled from the Motherboard, thus it's FakeRAID. It "does" RAID but it's such a bad idea to use it that you'd be better off adding a third disk and using proper SoftwareRAID for wherever you want your data to reside.
-
@dustinb3403 said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
It's not hardware raid. It's a piece of code that is operated within your motherboard (and by the CPU on your board).
So it DOES come from the motherboard?
-
@bnrstnr said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
@dustinb3403 said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
It's not hardware raid. It's a piece of code that is operated within your motherboard (and by the CPU on your board).
So it DOES come from the motherboard?
It has too, there is no where else for it to reside and run.
All of the disks are also connected to the motherboard directly via the SATA ports.
-
@dustinb3403 said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
What @scottalanmiller and I are saying is your motherboard, the one where you went in and did CTRL + <something> is a pixie-dust magic version of RAID.
It's not hardware raid. It's a piece of code that is operated within your motherboard (and by the CPU on your board).
It's FakeRAID because it isn't like Windows RAID (what is the implemented title for Windows RAID?) and it certainly isn't the MD version of SoftwareRAID from the Linux world.
Software RAID are implemented post OS startup and installation if you are lucky you might do it pre-install (XCP-NG is experimenting with Software RAID levels at installation time atm RAID1 only)
MDADM is post install, so you'd run from a single disk, and then you'd have your additional disks that you want to create an array from. (1 disk to boot 4 disks for storage). sOBR10 the 4 disks and you'd be off to the races.
It's something built and distributed to make you think you have the industry standard versions of RAID.
The utility you've used on this board is controlled from the Motherboard, thus it's FakeRAID. It "does" RAID but it's such a bad idea to use it that you'd be better off adding a third disk and using proper SoftwareRAID for wherever you want your data to reside.
The thing is, FakeRAID is RAID... nobody gives a shit here what kind of RAID it is. Don't listen to Scott, the kind of RAID it was I never was debating. That was all stuff he was shoving in my mouth.
The fact of the matter is that FakeRAID or not, it's coming from the motherboard... which most motherboards give you.
Are you getting the FakeRAID from the powersupply? No. From the motherboard? Yes.
