Should You Job Hop for Your Career in IT - SAMIT Video



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    It is common "wisdom" bestowed upon us from other careers that job loyalty is more important than moving up. Of course, employers want you to believe that, but is it really true? How does job hopping affect IT careers?



  • What is the incentive for an employer to put any type of training or professional development into an employee if they are going to use that training to work for another company?



  • @ccwtech said in Should You Job Hop for Your Career in IT - SAMIT Video:

    What is the incentive for an employer to put any type of training or professional development into an employee if they are going to use that training to work for another company?

    What's their incentive to do it now? Why is it up to an employer to educate employees? What good does it do an employee to get educated only for the needs of a single employer so that they don't become more valuable in the market?



  • Reverse the question - what is the incentive of an employee to become more valuable if they are trapped at a single employer that doesn't have a complete career path for them to advance through?



  • This is interesting. I have heard, recently, that hopping jobs is the way to increase your salary more and more. I like the company I work for because I am the one in charge of IT. I have a great boss that knows I know what I am doing and he doesn't. Since I have proven myself, he just lets me do what I need to do. I have grown tremendously during my 7 years here. I have almost completely virtualized this place and gotten a lot of things automated and created efficiencies in several other areas. However, I would love to move out of CA. If I can keep working for them and live out of state, I would do it tomorrow.



  • @scottalanmiller The incentive would be to develop the employee so they can move up in the company and make more money. I'm willing to pay my employee's more if they bring more to the table and make me more money.



  • @ccwtech said in Should You Job Hop for Your Career in IT - SAMIT Video:

    @scottalanmiller The incentive would be to develop the employee so they can move up in the company and make more money. I'm willing to pay my employee's more if they bring more to the table and make me more money.

    This doesn't work in 90% of companies. More skills aren't more valuable. Teaching your Windows people Linux or Networking skills does the normal company no good. The rare Fortune 100 is large enough to have an upwards career path. And Service Providers are outside of the normal system because essentially IT people job hop day to day. Outside of service providers and the Fortune 100, essentially no company has enough IT positions in granulatity to allow for education to move someone up the ladder. The steps immediately above most positions are lacking and the only means for someone to advance is to move to another company.



  • @ccwtech said in Should You Job Hop for Your Career in IT - SAMIT Video:

    @scottalanmiller The incentive would be to develop the employee so they can move up in the company and make more money. I'm willing to pay my employee's more if they bring more to the table and make me more money.

    Keep in mind that IT isn't a profit center. So more skills don't equate to more money. Why would a company want employees to move up if they have to pay for them to be able to move up? Companies, logically, want people to not advance, because they are cheaper with fewer marketable skills. They only want the employees to have the skills useful to them, not useful to their competition. It's not just business sensible to want to train people for jobs, skills and career paths that you don't have, don't plan to have or don't need to fill.

    In the Fortune 100, IT is often so huge that you can actually spend a career moving around inside the company. But even the biggest companies often want their star people to leave and maybe return some day, because it keeps them from stagnating from internal politics. That's why the big banks share staff and don't focus on retention within a single bank. Too much "keeping people in IT throughout their careers" leads to some really weird results.



  • @scottalanmiller I'm new at being a boss. I doubled my staff 2.5 weeks ago. I hired my first full time employee. A person who doesn't have a ton of experience but is very intelligent, learns fast, is a hard worker, is great with clients and cares about my customers. I'm willing to develop her skills and as that happens I am happy to pay her more.



  • Providing incentives for people to learn and grow in their careers is definitely something I look for. I don't really have a move up, here, as I am already at the top. I am still learning here because the company is growing at a decent clip. If I plateaued, both in income and level of interest (lack or projects), I would definitely be looking to move on.



  • @ccwtech said in Should You Job Hop for Your Career in IT - SAMIT Video:

    @scottalanmiller I'm new at being a boss. I doubled my staff 2.5 weeks ago. I hired my first full time employee. A person who doesn't have a ton of experience but is very intelligent, learns fast, is a hard worker, is great with clients and cares about my customers. I'm willing to develop her skills and as that happens I am happy to pay her more.

    But you are a service provider. Would you want to pay her more if she keeps learning things that you pay for her to learn, but you cannot sell? Do you want to tie her compensation to something other than her value to your company?

    And why would you pay, to make her ready to be paid more if she doesn't make you more?



  • @wrx7m said in Should You Job Hop for Your Career in IT - SAMIT Video:

    Providing incentives for people to learn and grow in their careers is definitely something I look for. I don't really have a move up, here, as I am already at the top. I am still learning here because the company is growing at a decent clip. If I plateaued, both in income and level of interest (lack or projects), I would definitely be looking to move on.

    Outside of the F100, it is common to plateau at many points in a career because the company doesn't have another level to move someone into. There aren't enough position "tiers" to allow for such granularity.



  • Also, study after study shows that the #1 reason people quit is job satisfaction. I don't believe I.T. is an exception. I think an employee who feels valued will stay at an employer longer than one who doesn't feel appreciated.



  • @ccwtech said in Should You Job Hop for Your Career in IT - SAMIT Video:

    Also, study after study shows that the #1 reason people quit is job satisfaction. I don't believe I.T. is an exception. I think an employee who feels valued will stay at an employer longer than one who doesn't feel appreciated.

    I agree with this. This is the first job I have had where 99% of the time I don't dread coming into work everyday.



  • @ccwtech said in Should You Job Hop for Your Career in IT - SAMIT Video:

    Also, study after study shows that the #1 reason people quit is job satisfaction. I don't believe I.T. is an exception. I think an employee who feels valued will stay at an employer longer than one who doesn't feel appreciated.

    Sure, but those that aren't valuable also tend to stay a long time. Is taking classes or getting cert training directly tied to job satisfaction? Why? Not that it is a bad thing, but what makes it particularly good? And long term employee retention is rarely beneficial to company or employee. Doing well by your staff is great, but long term retention is rarely the best thing for anyone. Sometimes, but not often.



  • @scottalanmiller Why couldn't I sell the services that a highly trained employee has?



  • @ccwtech said in Should You Job Hop for Your Career in IT - SAMIT Video:

    @scottalanmiller Why couldn't I sell the services that a highly trained employee has?

    So again, we are back to you being a service provider so to whom will you sell these skills? New customers? That's job hopping. See my point?



  • @scottalanmiller said in Should You Job Hop for Your Career in IT - SAMIT Video:

    @ccwtech said in Should You Job Hop for Your Career in IT - SAMIT Video:

    @scottalanmiller Why couldn't I sell the services that a highly trained employee has?

    So again, we are back to you being a service provider so to whom will you sell these skills? New customers? That's job hopping. See my point?

    Not at all... I can expand services and reach markets I am not reaching now because I don't have the assets to handle those jobs.



  • There are cases, with a service provider, where learning a small, new skill might result in a small, incremental sales bonus. But this is extremely rare. Think about existing MSP customers, think about an MSP "learning a small new skill", how does that interaction work? Do you raise their rates because you now know a little bit more than before? Do you base their rates off of incremental updates to a single employee? How do you handle when they work with other employees? Do you just get more work that was incrementally going to other providers?



  • @ccwtech said in Should You Job Hop for Your Career in IT - SAMIT Video:

    @scottalanmiller said in Should You Job Hop for Your Career in IT - SAMIT Video:

    @ccwtech said in Should You Job Hop for Your Career in IT - SAMIT Video:

    @scottalanmiller Why couldn't I sell the services that a highly trained employee has?

    So again, we are back to you being a service provider so to whom will you sell these skills? New customers? That's job hopping. See my point?

    Not at all... I can expand services and reach markets I am not reaching now because I don't have the assets to handle those jobs.

    No, exactly, you just described job hobbing. New companies in new markets.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Should You Job Hop for Your Career in IT - SAMIT Video:

    @ccwtech said in Should You Job Hop for Your Career in IT - SAMIT Video:

    @scottalanmiller said in Should You Job Hop for Your Career in IT - SAMIT Video:

    @ccwtech said in Should You Job Hop for Your Career in IT - SAMIT Video:

    @scottalanmiller Why couldn't I sell the services that a highly trained employee has?

    So again, we are back to you being a service provider so to whom will you sell these skills? New customers? That's job hopping. See my point?

    Not at all... I can expand services and reach markets I am not reaching now because I don't have the assets to handle those jobs.

    No, exactly, you just described job hobbing. New companies in new markets.

    But she would still be with my company. That's not job hopping. When I get a new client it's not job hopping.



  • Your employee makes their value of education by servicing new, highly cost customers... job hopping. Your example is exactly what I am saying - it is nearly impossible to grow with the same company(s) when gaining in education, you can only normally leverage that value through dealing with new companies.



  • @ccwtech said in Should You Job Hop for Your Career in IT - SAMIT Video:

    @scottalanmiller said in Should You Job Hop for Your Career in IT - SAMIT Video:

    @ccwtech said in Should You Job Hop for Your Career in IT - SAMIT Video:

    @scottalanmiller said in Should You Job Hop for Your Career in IT - SAMIT Video:

    @ccwtech said in Should You Job Hop for Your Career in IT - SAMIT Video:

    @scottalanmiller Why couldn't I sell the services that a highly trained employee has?

    So again, we are back to you being a service provider so to whom will you sell these skills? New customers? That's job hopping. See my point?

    Not at all... I can expand services and reach markets I am not reaching now because I don't have the assets to handle those jobs.

    No, exactly, you just described job hobbing. New companies in new markets.

    But she would still be with my company. That's not job hopping. When I get a new client it's not job hopping.

    You are paying her, she's actually WORKING for the other companies. It's job hopping in all intents of the term.



  • @scottalanmiller While I don't agree with your definition of job hopping, if it is defined as job hopping you are right. However I don't think 'job hopping' is the same as staying with one service provider but working with a new client. Hell I job hop several times a day then.



  • We've already established, long before this point, that service providers don't count as job hopping internally, but do externally. That was in the discussion, not the video. So you have only made my point via that clarification. MSPs are, in a sense, a staffing firm. The difference is that staffing firms float IT pros between companies in the range of weeks or months, whereas MSPs do it in hours or days. But the result is the same - short term "employment" with different companies and the value of education is more or different companies that can utilize those new skills.

    As an MSP, she doesn't really work for you, you pay her to work for someone else. Legally you get to call her an employee because her job hopping is so rapid that the IRS allows it in most cases, but certainly not all. Even as an MSP, if you assign her to just one or two large customers, she would legally switch (in most cases) to being their employee, not yours.



  • @ccwtech said in Should You Job Hop for Your Career in IT - SAMIT Video:

    @scottalanmiller While I don't agree with your definition of job hopping, if it is defined as job hopping you are right. However I don't think 'job hopping' is the same as staying with one service provider but working with a new client. Hell I job hop several times a day then.

    Right, of course you do, because job hopping is the value. MSPs are a "job hopping engine" for all intents and purposes. If you look at the market as a whole, it is a continuous curve of job hopping rates. MSPs are just staffing firms that change customers faster. Staffing firms are just payroll firms that change employment faster.

    There are subtle differences in those, sometimes, but not as often as you'd think. The lines between standard employment, third party payrolled employment, staffed employment or outsource multi-party almost entirely come down to the speed at which the customer is hopped. Once you think of all IT as being external, it becomes a lot more uniform. That there is a third party payroll handling firm in some cases or not other is really not all that relevant to anyone in practice.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Should You Job Hop for Your Career in IT - SAMIT Video:

    We've already established, long before this point, that service providers don't count as job hopping internally, but do externally. That was in the discussion, not the video. So you have only made my point via that clarification. MSPs are, in a sense, a staffing firm. The difference is that staffing firms float IT pros between companies in the range of weeks or months, whereas MSPs do it in hours or days. But the result is the same - short term "employment" with different companies and the value of education is more or different companies that can utilize those new skills.

    As an MSP, she doesn't really work for you, you pay her to work for someone else. Legally you get to call her an employee because her job hopping is so rapid that the IRS allows it in most cases, but certainly not all. Even as an MSP, if you assign her to just one or two large customers, she would legally switch (in most cases) to being their employee, not yours.

    I think you established your definition of job hopping. My definition would be different, but yes, if you apply your definition I see your point. Essentially to a service provider (not a company with an internal I.T. staff) the video doesn't really apply.



  • In operating system terms, and this is where my computer science background comes out, think of different employment styles as different "scheduling engines" for IT works. Compare IT workers to threads on a computer. In the old days, when we had no multitasking, that was like having one job for a lifetime and never switching. You get what you get.

    Once we get to multitasking, different scheduling engines produce different results. Some switch between jobs rapidly, some slowly. But it is all job hopping or thread context switching, just at different speeds.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Should You Job Hop for Your Career in IT - SAMIT Video:

    In operating system terms, and this is where my computer science background comes out, think of different employment styles as different "scheduling engines" for IT works. Compare IT workers to threads on a computer. In the old days, when we had no multitasking, that was like having one job for a lifetime and never switching. You get what you get.

    Once we get to multitasking, different scheduling engines produce different results. Some switch between jobs rapidly, some slowly. But it is all job hopping or thread context switching, just at different speeds.

    Given that very specific context I think we agree.



  • @ccwtech said in Should You Job Hop for Your Career in IT - SAMIT Video:

    @scottalanmiller said in Should You Job Hop for Your Career in IT - SAMIT Video:

    We've already established, long before this point, that service providers don't count as job hopping internally, but do externally. That was in the discussion, not the video. So you have only made my point via that clarification. MSPs are, in a sense, a staffing firm. The difference is that staffing firms float IT pros between companies in the range of weeks or months, whereas MSPs do it in hours or days. But the result is the same - short term "employment" with different companies and the value of education is more or different companies that can utilize those new skills.

    As an MSP, she doesn't really work for you, you pay her to work for someone else. Legally you get to call her an employee because her job hopping is so rapid that the IRS allows it in most cases, but certainly not all. Even as an MSP, if you assign her to just one or two large customers, she would legally switch (in most cases) to being their employee, not yours.

    I think you established your definition of job hopping. My definition would be different, but yes, if you apply your definition I see your point. Essentially to a service provider (not a company with an internal I.T. staff) the video doesn't really apply.

    Well, it does, because you still have to be able to hop. If your MSP can't find you more hopping opportunities, you are still at a major disadvantage. And, in reality, almost no MSPs can actually offer advancement of that nature. You have had an employee for 2.5 weeks and imagine that as she learns small skills that you will be able to increment her up the ladder. But are you actually confident that you can do that? Have you thought of a real world example of how that will work in practice? And will you be willing to pay for her education, and pay her for those skills whether or not you manage to sell them? If so, that seems like weird business logic. If not, it's not paying for the education that you are doing, but rather paying for the new job hopping that she was able to do.

    Even very large MSPs struggle with this, but at least they have more ability to handle it than do smaller ones. But in a shop with just two people, I suspect that you will find that this does not work as you imagine that it does and that incrementing an employee up the ladder doesn't work very well because customers don't generally have any need with regularity for incremental movements in their providers.