Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?
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@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@dashrender said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@dashrender "Easier backups", how so? Seems less-easy.
Can't be less easy. Can be the same or easier. You lose nothing, only gain options.
Less easy because without virtualization all I have to back up are a folder of images and a small handful of MySQL data files. Adding virtualization for the benefits I perceive peeps here to be championing would require backing up the entire VMs, which is less easy not to mention a much much bigger backup footprint, no? What am I missing?
Can't be less easy. Not possible. Literally, it's impossible to be less easy. Because ANY option you have with physical you retain with virtual, but with virtual you have more.
By less easy I just mean less work, less things to back up. I'd still need to back up the same things with virtualization that I will without, but with virtualization there are additional things to back up is all I mean. Easy was a poor choice of words, sorry.
What extra things do you think you need to backup with virtualization?
The virtual machine(s).
Why? Nothing says you have to. Just backup the same files you did before. Just because you can back them up, doesn't mean you have to.
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@dustinb3403 said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@dashrender said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@dashrender "Easier backups", how so? Seems less-easy.
Can't be less easy. Can be the same or easier. You lose nothing, only gain options.
Less easy because without virtualization all I have to back up are a folder of images and a small handful of MySQL data files. Adding virtualization for the benefits I perceive peeps here to be championing would require backing up the entire VMs, which is less easy not to mention a much much bigger backup footprint, no? What am I missing?
Can't be less easy. Not possible. Literally, it's impossible to be less easy. Because ANY option you have with physical you retain with virtual, but with virtual you have more.
By less easy I just mean less work, less things to back up. I'd still need to back up the same things with virtualization that I will without, but with virtualization there are additional things to back up is all I mean. Easy was a poor choice of words, sorry.
What extra things do you think you need to backup with virtualization?
The virtual machine(s).
Ok but how long does it take you to stand up your new physical server should it shit the bed?
What happens if you lose 1 host, and everything migrates over. While you're restoring the down host, if the working one shits the bed, then what?
The host OS is on a Raid 1 of two SSDs, so if both of those fail I'd have to replace them and reinstall the OS.
Installing the host OS takes about 10 minutes on this hardware based on doing it yesterday for benchmarking. Setting up the serveware takes me about 10 minutes.
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Start from the assumption... there are no downsides to virtualization. Anything that appears like a downside is a misconception. We do this all the time. Now, what might not exist is a compelling reason to need virtualization or need it today, that's fine. You might be at break even for your current setup. However, tomorrow is unknown. Virtualization protects against more tomorrow. So even at break even today, it is a win in risk reduction.
THis is why we never spend time questioning virtualization, since it lacks downsides and has loads of potential upsides (most small, but all are there) there is no reason to skip it. Just do it and move on. THings like HA, consolidation, agentless backups... those are all part of possible benefits you may or may not choose to employ.
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@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@dashrender said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@dashrender "Easier backups", how so? Seems less-easy.
Can't be less easy. Can be the same or easier. You lose nothing, only gain options.
Less easy because without virtualization all I have to back up are a folder of images and a small handful of MySQL data files. Adding virtualization for the benefits I perceive peeps here to be championing would require backing up the entire VMs, which is less easy not to mention a much much bigger backup footprint, no? What am I missing?
Can't be less easy. Not possible. Literally, it's impossible to be less easy. Because ANY option you have with physical you retain with virtual, but with virtual you have more.
By less easy I just mean less work, less things to back up. I'd still need to back up the same things with virtualization that I will without, but with virtualization there are additional things to back up is all I mean. Easy was a poor choice of words, sorry.
What extra things do you think you need to backup with virtualization?
The virtual machine(s).
You are already backing those up. That's what you are backing up now. So nothing new.
Sorry, think I mispoke. I'm not backing anything up but the MySQL data files and the image uploads.
That's fine. Virtualization changes nothing. You need to back up nothing more. If you sense any additional needs with VMs, that means you have those needs today but are failing ot meet them. So you are likely discovering holes in your backup and recovery strategy that are bothering you, but you didn't realize until we mentioned the virtualization. But literally anything that works today will continue to work virtualized.
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@scottalanmiller said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@dashrender said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@dashrender "Easier backups", how so? Seems less-easy.
Can't be less easy. Can be the same or easier. You lose nothing, only gain options.
Less easy because without virtualization all I have to back up are a folder of images and a small handful of MySQL data files. Adding virtualization for the benefits I perceive peeps here to be championing would require backing up the entire VMs, which is less easy not to mention a much much bigger backup footprint, no? What am I missing?
Can't be less easy. Not possible. Literally, it's impossible to be less easy. Because ANY option you have with physical you retain with virtual, but with virtual you have more.
By less easy I just mean less work, less things to back up. I'd still need to back up the same things with virtualization that I will without, but with virtualization there are additional things to back up is all I mean. Easy was a poor choice of words, sorry.
What extra things do you think you need to backup with virtualization?
The virtual machine(s).
You are already backing those up. That's what you are backing up now. So nothing new.
Sorry, think I mispoke. I'm not backing anything up but the MySQL data files and the image uploads.
That's fine. Virtualization changes nothing. You need to back up nothing more. If you sense any additional needs with VMs, that means you have those needs today but are failing ot meet them. So you are likely discovering holes in your backup and recovery strategy that are bothering you, but you didn't realize until we mentioned the virtualization. But literally anything that works today will continue to work virtualized.
Just to be clear, assuming a requirement is Windows, specifically what you all are suggesting is that
Instead of using the host OS, I turn on Hyper V and use a single virtual machine per server and keep all other things identical?
And in addition to the more abstract, general benefits you all believe in, some of which Scott has listed, the benefit you see is that I could potentially, in the case of a failure, if the virtual machine happened to live on a RAID array that wasn't the one that failed, copy that virtual machine to another host and just set it in motion rather than having to configure a new Host OS set up, presuming I had already configured another Host OS set up to move it to, right? Trying to put all of these ideas in concrete terms because I'm interested in learning, not challenging what you're saying with my questions, just trying to comprehend it all. I know you all are seasoned experts.
Thanks for all of the help btw.
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@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@dashrender said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@dashrender "Easier backups", how so? Seems less-easy.
Can't be less easy. Can be the same or easier. You lose nothing, only gain options.
Less easy because without virtualization all I have to back up are a folder of images and a small handful of MySQL data files. Adding virtualization for the benefits I perceive peeps here to be championing would require backing up the entire VMs, which is less easy not to mention a much much bigger backup footprint, no? What am I missing?
Can't be less easy. Not possible. Literally, it's impossible to be less easy. Because ANY option you have with physical you retain with virtual, but with virtual you have more.
By less easy I just mean less work, less things to back up. I'd still need to back up the same things with virtualization that I will without, but with virtualization there are additional things to back up is all I mean. Easy was a poor choice of words, sorry.
What extra things do you think you need to backup with virtualization?
The virtual machine(s).
You are already backing those up. That's what you are backing up now. So nothing new.
Sorry, think I mispoke. I'm not backing anything up but the MySQL data files and the image uploads.
That's fine. Virtualization changes nothing. You need to back up nothing more. If you sense any additional needs with VMs, that means you have those needs today but are failing ot meet them. So you are likely discovering holes in your backup and recovery strategy that are bothering you, but you didn't realize until we mentioned the virtualization. But literally anything that works today will continue to work virtualized.
Just to be clear, assuming a requirement is Windows, specifically what you all are suggesting is that
Instead of using the host OS, I turn on Hyper V and use a single virtual machine per server and keep all other things identical?
You never want to enable the hyper-v role.
Download Hyper-v from the website, its completely free and is current. You'd be turning on an old version of Hyper-V which makes no sense.
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That's mostly right.
Though we don't suggest that you 'enable' Hyper-V. You need to install from scratch Hyper-V by itself, then create VMs inside that.
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@dustinb3403 said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@dashrender said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@dashrender "Easier backups", how so? Seems less-easy.
Can't be less easy. Can be the same or easier. You lose nothing, only gain options.
Less easy because without virtualization all I have to back up are a folder of images and a small handful of MySQL data files. Adding virtualization for the benefits I perceive peeps here to be championing would require backing up the entire VMs, which is less easy not to mention a much much bigger backup footprint, no? What am I missing?
Can't be less easy. Not possible. Literally, it's impossible to be less easy. Because ANY option you have with physical you retain with virtual, but with virtual you have more.
By less easy I just mean less work, less things to back up. I'd still need to back up the same things with virtualization that I will without, but with virtualization there are additional things to back up is all I mean. Easy was a poor choice of words, sorry.
What extra things do you think you need to backup with virtualization?
The virtual machine(s).
You are already backing those up. That's what you are backing up now. So nothing new.
Sorry, think I mispoke. I'm not backing anything up but the MySQL data files and the image uploads.
That's fine. Virtualization changes nothing. You need to back up nothing more. If you sense any additional needs with VMs, that means you have those needs today but are failing ot meet them. So you are likely discovering holes in your backup and recovery strategy that are bothering you, but you didn't realize until we mentioned the virtualization. But literally anything that works today will continue to work virtualized.
Just to be clear, assuming a requirement is Windows, specifically what you all are suggesting is that
Instead of using the host OS, I turn on Hyper V and use a single virtual machine per server and keep all other things identical?
You never want to enable the hyper-v role.
Download Hyper-v from the website, its completely free and is current. You'd be turning on an old version of Hyper-V which makes no sense.
Do you mean Hyper V Server? The standalone thingee?
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@creayt don't worry, we don't hold anything against you because you said in post one that you were a developer.
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@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@dustinb3403 said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@dashrender said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@dashrender "Easier backups", how so? Seems less-easy.
Can't be less easy. Can be the same or easier. You lose nothing, only gain options.
Less easy because without virtualization all I have to back up are a folder of images and a small handful of MySQL data files. Adding virtualization for the benefits I perceive peeps here to be championing would require backing up the entire VMs, which is less easy not to mention a much much bigger backup footprint, no? What am I missing?
Can't be less easy. Not possible. Literally, it's impossible to be less easy. Because ANY option you have with physical you retain with virtual, but with virtual you have more.
By less easy I just mean less work, less things to back up. I'd still need to back up the same things with virtualization that I will without, but with virtualization there are additional things to back up is all I mean. Easy was a poor choice of words, sorry.
What extra things do you think you need to backup with virtualization?
The virtual machine(s).
You are already backing those up. That's what you are backing up now. So nothing new.
Sorry, think I mispoke. I'm not backing anything up but the MySQL data files and the image uploads.
That's fine. Virtualization changes nothing. You need to back up nothing more. If you sense any additional needs with VMs, that means you have those needs today but are failing ot meet them. So you are likely discovering holes in your backup and recovery strategy that are bothering you, but you didn't realize until we mentioned the virtualization. But literally anything that works today will continue to work virtualized.
Just to be clear, assuming a requirement is Windows, specifically what you all are suggesting is that
Instead of using the host OS, I turn on Hyper V and use a single virtual machine per server and keep all other things identical?
You never want to enable the hyper-v role.
Download Hyper-v from the website, its completely free and is current. You'd be turning on an old version of Hyper-V which makes no sense.
Do you mean Hyper V Server? The standalone thingee?
Yes, Hyper-V is a type 1 server.
If you are enabling the role, it means you are binding your licensing to that hardware for Windows Server. (which is a completely separate product).
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The problem you run into here is that Hyper-V should be put on it's own drives. So you'll need another two drives in RAID 1 to run Hyper-V from, OR you could install Hyper-V on the current RAID1, and assuming there is enough storage space left over on that RAID 1, make the VM VHD for the boot portion of the VM, and on the RAID 0/5 make another VHD mapped into the same VM for the data.
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@dashrender said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
The problem you run into here is that Hyper-V should be put on it's own drives. So you'll need another two drives in RAID 1 to run Hyper-V from, OR you could install Hyper-V on the current RAID1, and assuming there is enough storage space left over on that RAID 1, make the VM VHD for the boot portion of the VM, and on the RAID 0/5 make another VHD mapped into the same VM for the data.
Close, I never even bother with a RAID for Hyper-V. I put it on a SATA drive instead of an array drive.
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@dustinb3403 said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@dustinb3403 said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@dashrender said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@dashrender "Easier backups", how so? Seems less-easy.
Can't be less easy. Can be the same or easier. You lose nothing, only gain options.
Less easy because without virtualization all I have to back up are a folder of images and a small handful of MySQL data files. Adding virtualization for the benefits I perceive peeps here to be championing would require backing up the entire VMs, which is less easy not to mention a much much bigger backup footprint, no? What am I missing?
Can't be less easy. Not possible. Literally, it's impossible to be less easy. Because ANY option you have with physical you retain with virtual, but with virtual you have more.
By less easy I just mean less work, less things to back up. I'd still need to back up the same things with virtualization that I will without, but with virtualization there are additional things to back up is all I mean. Easy was a poor choice of words, sorry.
What extra things do you think you need to backup with virtualization?
The virtual machine(s).
You are already backing those up. That's what you are backing up now. So nothing new.
Sorry, think I mispoke. I'm not backing anything up but the MySQL data files and the image uploads.
That's fine. Virtualization changes nothing. You need to back up nothing more. If you sense any additional needs with VMs, that means you have those needs today but are failing ot meet them. So you are likely discovering holes in your backup and recovery strategy that are bothering you, but you didn't realize until we mentioned the virtualization. But literally anything that works today will continue to work virtualized.
Just to be clear, assuming a requirement is Windows, specifically what you all are suggesting is that
Instead of using the host OS, I turn on Hyper V and use a single virtual machine per server and keep all other things identical?
You never want to enable the hyper-v role.
Download Hyper-v from the website, its completely free and is current. You'd be turning on an old version of Hyper-V which makes no sense.
Do you mean Hyper V Server? The standalone thingee?
Yes, Hyper-V is a type 1 server.
If you are enabling the role, it means you are binding your licensing to that hardware for Windows Server. (which is a completely separate product).
Ah, good to know, thank you. Still kind of fresh on what Hyper V Server vs. Hyper V vs. Nano Server vs. Server Core all is, but I think I get it now.
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@jaredbusch said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@dashrender said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
The problem you run into here is that Hyper-V should be put on it's own drives. So you'll need another two drives in RAID 1 to run Hyper-V from, OR you could install Hyper-V on the current RAID1, and assuming there is enough storage space left over on that RAID 1, make the VM VHD for the boot portion of the VM, and on the RAID 0/5 make another VHD mapped into the same VM for the data.
Close, I never even bother with a RAID for Hyper-V. I put it on a SATA drive instead of an array drive.
I think since it's so small I can even just throw it on an SD card, right? These servers have slots for that ( then give the datacenter a back up SD card in case the first one fails ).
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@dashrender said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
The problem you run into here is that Hyper-V should be put on it's own drives. So you'll need another two drives in RAID 1 to run Hyper-V from, OR you could install Hyper-V on the current RAID1, and assuming there is enough storage space left over on that RAID 1, make the VM VHD for the boot portion of the VM, and on the RAID 0/5 make another VHD mapped into the same VM for the data.
Makes sense, thx.
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@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@jaredbusch said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@dashrender said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
The problem you run into here is that Hyper-V should be put on it's own drives. So you'll need another two drives in RAID 1 to run Hyper-V from, OR you could install Hyper-V on the current RAID1, and assuming there is enough storage space left over on that RAID 1, make the VM VHD for the boot portion of the VM, and on the RAID 0/5 make another VHD mapped into the same VM for the data.
Close, I never even bother with a RAID for Hyper-V. I put it on a SATA drive instead of an array drive.
I think since it's so small I can even just throw it on an SD card, right? These servers have slots for that ( then give the datacenter a back up SD card in case the first one fails ).
Hyper-V doesn't do well on SD unless installed by an OEM.
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@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@jaredbusch said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@dashrender said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
The problem you run into here is that Hyper-V should be put on it's own drives. So you'll need another two drives in RAID 1 to run Hyper-V from, OR you could install Hyper-V on the current RAID1, and assuming there is enough storage space left over on that RAID 1, make the VM VHD for the boot portion of the VM, and on the RAID 0/5 make another VHD mapped into the same VM for the data.
Close, I never even bother with a RAID for Hyper-V. I put it on a SATA drive instead of an array drive.
I think since it's so small I can even just throw it on an SD card, right? These servers have slots for that ( then give the datacenter a back up SD card in case the first one fails ).
Hyper-V doesn't support installing to SD/USB. Just install it to a hard drive. Don't waste an SSD on it.
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@dustinb3403 said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@jaredbusch said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@dashrender said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
The problem you run into here is that Hyper-V should be put on it's own drives. So you'll need another two drives in RAID 1 to run Hyper-V from, OR you could install Hyper-V on the current RAID1, and assuming there is enough storage space left over on that RAID 1, make the VM VHD for the boot portion of the VM, and on the RAID 0/5 make another VHD mapped into the same VM for the data.
Close, I never even bother with a RAID for Hyper-V. I put it on a SATA drive instead of an array drive.
I think since it's so small I can even just throw it on an SD card, right? These servers have slots for that ( then give the datacenter a back up SD card in case the first one fails ).
Hyper-V doesn't support installing to SD/USB. Just install it to a hard drive. Don't waste an SSD on it.
These servers are 100% SSD, fortunately/unfortunately?
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Assuming you can give up 60 GB on the RAID 1, just install Hyper-V there, then use the remaining space for your VHD
drive for your VM. -
@dustinb3403 said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@creayt said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@jaredbusch said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
@dashrender said in Is this server strategy reckless and/or insane?:
The problem you run into here is that Hyper-V should be put on it's own drives. So you'll need another two drives in RAID 1 to run Hyper-V from, OR you could install Hyper-V on the current RAID1, and assuming there is enough storage space left over on that RAID 1, make the VM VHD for the boot portion of the VM, and on the RAID 0/5 make another VHD mapped into the same VM for the data.
Close, I never even bother with a RAID for Hyper-V. I put it on a SATA drive instead of an array drive.
I think since it's so small I can even just throw it on an SD card, right? These servers have slots for that ( then give the datacenter a back up SD card in case the first one fails ).
Hyper-V doesn't support installing to SD/USB. Just install it to a hard drive. Don't waste an SSD on it.
GTK, thx.
