When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator
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@scottalanmiller By 15 years, a good entrepreneur can easily make enough money to retire. Many can do it in 10, and sometimes less. Do the statistics account for that at all to your knowledge? I haven't checked so I'm uncertain.
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@tirendir said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
None of those examples is comparable to IT, because they're all fields that are only utilized by their clientele when they are needed. IT is pretty much always necessary, so it's hardly comparable to compare contractors to permanent service providers.
Except for doctors, lawyers, accountants, electricians, HR, etc. All are used regularly by the business and are often on staff departments. They are all permanent and exactly like IT. And, just like IT, most of the time should be outsourced unless you are in the enterprise.
Like IT in every way. Experts, obvious results, should be outsourced way more often than they should, requires no explanation to anyone qualified.
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@tirendir said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
IT is pretty much always necessary, so it's hardly comparable to compare contractors to permanent service providers.
Is it? Why? What about IT makes it need to be there all the time moreso than, say, accountants? Both are needed with regularity, neither is needed enough in the SMB to be needed full time. Hence the explanation for why the MSP model is so important.
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@tirendir said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
Clearly there are not enough MSPs of the type you describe, because they simply don't exist within about a thousand mile radius of where I am.
There is no populated place on earth like this. Given that I know some that operate globally, this is simply untrue. You can have a good MSP today. That you choose not to accept one or look for one is a totally different matter. There is no business that can't have a good MSP. Lots of businesses can't figure out how to search for one or worse, how to identify one, that's yet another matter, but the same thing can be said about good IT people. If you can't find a good MSP, you have no more ability to look for good IT staff. The ability to search and identify each is shared.
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@scottalanmiller By enterprises yes, which is not remotely similar to SMBs which is what we're talking about. Big entities can hire their entire infrastructure and ecosystems for efficiency, which is also why they can't do much quickly or with much flexibility in most cases. IBM has historically been an exception to that rule. Disney is an exception to that rule as well.
Even large enterprises struggle with bad management, because most managers are bad too. Again, the problem throughout every industry at ever size and scale in every business in every country on earth is an issue of having the wrong people in the wrong roles at the wrong times more often than not. Leaving only a handful doing what they will excel at, in a role that suits them. It's not a scale thing. Scale just tries to compensate for the wrong people in the wrong place problem with some success, but it varies and is not as universal as you're saying imo.
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@scottalanmiller Getting a good MSP, and getting a good MSP that can provide services as required by the organization for a price that they can, or are willing to pay are very different things though.
I'm not saying that there aren't good MSPs that could be contracted, but just that they won't contract with a lot of businesses in ways that are agreeable, so the businesses look elsewhere. Because the good MSPs opt to demand X amount of resources for their services, they created the opportunity for less-good MSPs and internal IT to fill that void. Just because there are good MSPs out there doesn't mean that everyone else agrees that they're worth what they believe they are. Some organizations may simply decide that their scale is too much for their needs, so their cost does not justify the value they perceive, so they leave the MSPs offer on the table because they failed to offer an agreeable solution. It's just capitalism on display.
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@tirendir said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@scottalanmiller By enterprises yes, which is not remotely similar to SMBs which is what we're talking about. Big entities can hire their entire infrastructure and ecosystems for efficiency, which is also why they can't do much quickly or with much flexibility in most cases. IBM has historically been an exception to that rule. Disney is an exception to that rule as well.
Actually Disney is famous for having the worst IT ever. Disney is the best example of your rule, rather than an exception.
But exceptions, to me, seem to be the norm. Find me any enterprise OTHER than Disney with these problems. It can't be simply that every enterprise I've worked for or with is the exception, that seems to always be everyone's answer. Big entities have the resources to dance and the management that knows why that is important. What real enterprise (not Dashrender's one weird small example) has these problems? They exist, but I don't know of one.
But what SMB doesn't? I talk to SMBs every day and consistently an answer I get is that they are way too rigid, lack the resources and structure to be flexible. Their management can't handle change and their IT can't handle it - either through lack of skills, support, resources, exposure, peer assistance, ability to pivot due to being alone, etc.
All things that MSPs can fix.
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@tirendir said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@scottalanmiller Getting a good MSP, and getting a good MSP that can provide services as required by the organization for a price that they can, or are willing to pay are very different things though.
Willing to pay is the piece. All this means is that the SMB is dumb. Nothing more. It doesn't mean that the MSP isn't cheaper or better. Or that internal IT makes sense. You've just make "SMBs make bad decisions and screw themselves" the available reason, and I agree. For all intents and purposes, every SMB that doesn't use an MSP does so because they aren't willing to do what is right for their business because business results are not what are driving their decisions.
I agree 100%. An MSP can always come in cheaper than internal staff. But many SMBs simple burn money to flaunt that they can waste it. It's fun for them. It's hubris. Owners of SMBs commonly show off how much money they can waste, it's a thing. And not just in IT. In all kinds of ways.
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@tirendir said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
I'm not saying that there aren't good MSPs that could be contracted, but just that they won't contract with a lot of businesses in ways that are agreeable, so the businesses look elsewhere. Because the good MSPs opt to demand X amount of resources for their services, they created the opportunity for less-good MSPs and internal IT to fill that void. Just because there are good MSPs out there doesn't mean that everyone else agrees that they're worth what they believe they are. Some organizations may simply decide that their scale is too much for their needs, so their cost does not justify the value they perceive, so they leave the MSPs offer on the table because they failed to offer an agreeable solution.
I feel like you are missing that all of this is just explaining why MSPs are the right choice.
That something is the right choice or not; and whether someone makes good choices; are two totally different things.
I've pointed out that the MSP model is superior. You've pointed out that SMBs are bad at business. Those two things are not opposing viewpoints. One just explains why the market isn't causing the other to happen.
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@scottalanmiller Have you ever considered that because you're actually good, that you have only worked at good places for quite some time?
Would it not make sense that because you are good, the only places that recognize your value are the ones that are also good enough to offer you what you're worth? It would be a bit of a mark on you for taking stupid jobs, or good roles from stupid employers would it not? I would say that yeah, it's far more likely that you have persistently worked for employers who are exceptions to the rules if you are exceptional. That makes sense if you think about it, because dumb enterprises aren't going to recognize talent, nor value it nearly as much as smart/good ones.
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@tirendir said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
It's just capitalism on display.
Not really. Capitalism suggests and is based around that wanting to succeed in profit making will drive decisions. SMBs actually display something very, very different.
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@scottalanmiller said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@tirendir said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@scottalanmiller Getting a good MSP, and getting a good MSP that can provide services as required by the organization for a price that they can, or are willing to pay are very different things though.
Willing to pay is the piece. All this means is that the SMB is dumb. Nothing more. It doesn't mean that the MSP isn't cheaper or better. Or that internal IT makes sense. You've just make "SMBs make bad decisions and screw themselves" the available reason, and I agree. For all intents and purposes, every SMB that doesn't use an MSP does so because they aren't willing to do what is right for their business because business results are not what are driving their decisions.
I agree 100%. An MSP can always come in cheaper than internal staff. But many SMBs simple burn money to flaunt that they can waste it. It's fun for them. It's hubris. Owners of SMBs commonly show off how much money they can waste, it's a thing. And not just in IT. In all kinds of ways.
I remember working as a sole IT person for a 250 person company. This company was going through layoffs and the owners (two brothers) constantly flaunted their money around even during the layoffs. In fact the owner bought a new private jet, and a some dumbass human size robot with facetime built into it. This was back in 2010 so it was pretty damn expensive at the time (a few grand).
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@scottalanmiller At the same time, your explanation fails to accommodate the fact that the MSPs are making the exact same dumb decisions, so how are they better just because they're bigger and making the same stupid decisions?
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@tirendir said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@scottalanmiller Have you ever considered that because you're actually good, that you have only worked at good places for quite some time?
People say this a lot and I admit it has some merit. BUT... you have to consider that I've worked at something like 80 companies over something like 30 years in nearly every field you can imagine. And that's worked AT 80, not FOR 80. I've worked for hundreds or thousands because I consult a lot.
And for a very long time, I wasn't good. I was low paid, entry level and all over the map. I've had good jobs and bad ones. I've been good at my job and bad at my job.
If we had just a few recent examples, I'd buy that maybe I've created a bubble of finding good jobs. And I'll admit that my practices around job finding are, I think, extremely good which is why I teach them so much. Although, of course, when I teach people how to find a great job I get told "well yeah, that works for you" as if it won't apply to others and that, again, I'm a unique case.
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@irj said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
In fact the owner bought a new private jet... This was back in 2010 so it was pretty damn expensive.
Thankfully they are cheaper now
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@scottalanmiller You have a lot of confidence, that means something (a very important something imo). You're good at what you do, you like doing it, and you seem to like constantly progressing up the ladder(s) of your choice because it sounds to me like you see no real impediment to doing so. I really do highly respect that.
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@tirendir said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
Would it not make sense that because you are good, the only places that recognize your value are the ones that are also good enough to offer you what you're worth? It would be a bit of a mark on you for taking stupid jobs, or good roles from stupid employers would it not? I would say that yeah, it's far more likely that you have persistently worked for employers who are exceptions to the rules if you are exceptional. That makes sense if you think about it, because dumb enterprises aren't going to recognize talent, nor value it nearly as much as smart/good ones.
It's hard to argue with flattery. But the reality is, I work with insane numbers of incompetent SMBs. So SMBs are bringing me in, one way or another, in very different situations. So I see tons of problems there. And I've seen enterprises with some pretty extreme problems. But not around these kinds of things.
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I loved IBM, and boy could they dance (and that's where that term comes from ... Can Elephants Dance?) but boy were they loaded with issues.
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@scottalanmiller TBH, what you do probably doesn't and won't work for most people. They aren't you, or like you in many ways. That doesn't mean your advice is bad, it just means that for those that won't, they refuse to adapt that way. For those who can't, they simply cannot operate that way. Not everybody is the same, nor possesses the same capabilities, it's just life.
For me, I don't want more money. I don't really care tbh. Sure I'm worth more than I'm paid, and I tell my employer that regularly. I also tell them why I haven't left, which is why I have so little stress and such a good work environment. I could look around and find a better one in all likelihood, but I like where I'm at as far as physical location, and I've yet to see any great indication that there are any other such places in my area, so for now I'm staying put.
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@tirendir said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@scottalanmiller TBH, what you do probably doesn't and won't work for most people.
I don't believe this to be true, partially because I know people who follow them and they work when it isn't me, and partially because nothing about them is centered around me, and partially because I've not always been this person and they worked for me long ago.
