Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies
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@DustinB3403 said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
@Tim_G said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
@DustinB3403 said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
@Tim_G Ah.
Good stuff. I've never had a hard time getting any Distro installed on any hardware I've had. Not sure why @scottalanmiller seems to have such a hard time.
No it's the other way around. Scott is the only one who gets Linux installed on all hardware with zero issues and 100% compatibility... and he has issues all the time with Windows. Not sure what he is doing different than the rest of the world, but I wish it was like that for me too!
He couldn't get any Distro besides Ubuntu installed onto his Asus ROG.
So that last bit was a jab I was throwing his way.
Ah yeah, same with me. The only thing I could get usable on mine was Fedora 26.
Edit: Note that I said usable... I'm not implying there were no issues.
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@Tim_G said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
@DustinB3403 said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
@Tim_G Ah.
Good stuff. I've never had a hard time getting any Distro installed on any hardware I've had. Not sure why @scottalanmiller seems to have such a hard time.
No it's the other way around. Scott is the only one who gets Linux installed on all hardware with zero issues and 100% compatibility... and he has issues all the time with Windows. Not sure what he is doing different than the rest of the world, but I wish it was like that for me too!
It's not just me. It's everyone I'm around. Not sure how people here are running into issues. Maybe you plug in lots of weird things. Most people I know don't plug in new hardware with any frequency. That's not how normal people use computers. Sure, they do it once every few years. But once a machine is installed, regularly getting and plugging in new stuff isn't common for normal users.
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@scottalanmiller said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
@Tim_G said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
@DustinB3403 said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
@Tim_G Ah.
Good stuff. I've never had a hard time getting any Distro installed on any hardware I've had. Not sure why @scottalanmiller seems to have such a hard time.
No it's the other way around. Scott is the only one who gets Linux installed on all hardware with zero issues and 100% compatibility... and he has issues all the time with Windows. Not sure what he is doing different than the rest of the world, but I wish it was like that for me too!
It's not just me. It's everyone I'm around. Not sure how people here are running into issues. Maybe you plug in lots of weird things. Most people I know don't plug in new hardware with any frequency. That's not how normal people use computers. Sure, they do it once every few years. But once a machine is installed, regularly getting and plugging in new stuff isn't common for normal users.
I'm not plugging anything at all into the computer. The issues are with internal hardware components. There's always something that doesn't quite work right... maybe the fans always spin at full speed, maybe the thing gets stuck shutting down and rebooting, maybe the built-in card reader doesn't work, maybe the internal wNIC doesn't work, maybe it's the video card having issues, the touchpad, sometimes Bluetooth, etc etc etc etc etc....
That's my point.
And good luck trying to find the right drivers and getting it to work... grandma definitely won't be able to do that.
I've never gone to a manufacturers website and was able to just download and click to install a driver and have it working on Linux... not ever. There's always a ton of voodoo and wizardry involved, if it's even doable.
On Windows, if something doesn't work, it's super easy to resolve... If Windows doesn't come with a working driver built in, it's almost effortless to get the driver and have it working quickly.
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@Tim_G said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
That's my point.
And good luck trying to find the right drivers and getting it to work... grandma definitely won't be able to do that.
Grandma doesn't install Windows, Linux or anything else. That's not a task applicable to end users. So does not apply.
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With Linux, there are two paths with hardware:
- You install Linux distro XYZ, and it just works. Great!
- You install Linux distro XYZ, and something doesn't work right... there's no hope so don't even try unless you want to waste weeks of your time. Hopefully it's usable and nothing too annoying, and you can live with it.
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@Tim_G said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
I've never gone to a manufacturers website and was able to just download and click to install a driver and have it working on Linux... not ever. There's always a ton of voodoo and wizardry involved, if it's even doable.
That's a Windowsism and part of the point of the article. With Windows, drivers come from websites that you go to to download them. In the Linux world, you really don't do that. It's an option, but it's not how the ecosystem works. Doing so will cause lots of problems in most cases, hence the point of the original article that weird complexities from Windows backgrounds tends to make Linux harder.
That I didn't come from Windows and don't have these issues and that people coming from Windows have these issues... is the actually thing we are discussing. This is what we are saying we expect.
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@Tim_G said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
- You install Linux distro XYZ, and something doesn't work right... there's no hope so don't even try unless you want to waste weeks of your time. Hopefully it's usable and nothing too annoying, and you can live with it.
Same as Windows.
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@Tim_G said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
On Windows, if something doesn't work, it's super easy to resolve... If Windows doesn't come with a working driver built in, it's almost effortless to get the driver and have it working quickly.
In my experience, this is less commonly true than it is in Linux. Once you have an OS that works with your hardware, I don't find these issues commonly on Linux.
I think you are equating initial OS compatibility with working with hardware. You try Linux distros in ways you'd never try Windows. Hence my Raspberry Pi example. Windows doesn't run on the world's most popular platform. Nor does it run on phones. Not on millions of different SBCs. Nor on Power or Sparc hardware. Linux runs on them all. You just rule all of that stuff out because you know Windows will never work. You are holding Linux to a totally different standard. If we flipped the approach Windows would work so much less often.
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@scottalanmiller said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
@Tim_G said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
I've never gone to a manufacturers website and was able to just download and click to install a driver and have it working on Linux... not ever. There's always a ton of voodoo and wizardry involved, if it's even doable.
That's a Windowsism and part of the point of the article. With Windows, drivers come from websites that you go to to download them. In the Linux world, you really don't do that. It's an option, but it's not how the ecosystem works. Doing so will cause lots of problems in most cases, hence the point of the original article that weird complexities from Windows backgrounds tends to make Linux harder.
That I didn't come from Windows and don't have these issues and that people coming from Windows have these issues... is the actually thing we are discussing. This is what we are saying we expect.
Yeah I guess you'd get it from the Repo that's for your Distro... I don't know, probably something like:
sudo dnf search yourHardware*or something like that... install it maybe, and hope and pray your system is still usable afterwards. Or some other method that wastes a ton of time, again, if it's even possible.
On servers and enterprise hardware, it's easy... Dell provides for you what you need for supported OSs. I have no issues there. I'm strictly talking personal use.
IMO, it's faster and easier to go to a website, find what you need for the OS you are using, install it, and it just works. No guessing CLI and hoping and praying.
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@Tim_G said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
@scottalanmiller said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
@Tim_G said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
I've never gone to a manufacturers website and was able to just download and click to install a driver and have it working on Linux... not ever. There's always a ton of voodoo and wizardry involved, if it's even doable.
That's a Windowsism and part of the point of the article. With Windows, drivers come from websites that you go to to download them. In the Linux world, you really don't do that. It's an option, but it's not how the ecosystem works. Doing so will cause lots of problems in most cases, hence the point of the original article that weird complexities from Windows backgrounds tends to make Linux harder.
That I didn't come from Windows and don't have these issues and that people coming from Windows have these issues... is the actually thing we are discussing. This is what we are saying we expect.
Yeah I guess you'd get it from the Repo that's for your Distro... I don't know, probably something like:
sudo dnf search yourHardware*or something like that... install it maybe, and hope and pray your system is still usable afterwards. Or some other method that wastes a ton of time, again, if it's even possible.
On servers and enterprise hardware, it's easy... Dell provides for you what you need for supported OSs. I have no issues there. I'm strictly talking personal use.
IMO, it's faster and easier to go to a website, find what you need for the OS you are using, install it, and it just works. No guessing CLI and hoping and praying.
Or you could just click on the desktop button that says "Install proprietary drivers" as found in almost every mainstream desktop distro.
Literally a 2 second job.
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@scottalanmiller said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
@Tim_G said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
On Windows, if something doesn't work, it's super easy to resolve... If Windows doesn't come with a working driver built in, it's almost effortless to get the driver and have it working quickly.
In my experience, this is less commonly true than it is in Linux. Once you have an OS that works with your hardware, I don't find these issues commonly on Linux.
Yeah, once you have an OS that works with all your hardware... there are no issues at all. Agree with you there!
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@scottalanmiller said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
@Tim_G said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
On Windows, if something doesn't work, it's super easy to resolve... If Windows doesn't come with a working driver built in, it's almost effortless to get the driver and have it working quickly.
I think you are equating initial OS compatibility with working with hardware. You try Linux distros in ways you'd never try Windows. Hence my Raspberry Pi example. Windows doesn't run on the world's most popular platform. Nor does it run on phones. Not on millions of different SBCs. Nor on Power or Sparc hardware. Linux runs on them all. You just rule all of that stuff out because you know Windows will never work. You are holding Linux to a totally different standard. If we flipped the approach Windows would work so much less often.
I'm not trying Linux in any way it's not meant. Are you saying Linux should not be installed on anything Windows come on natively from the manufacturer? I'm only aware of one manufacturer that just recently started selling systems with Linux natively. And yes, I'm sure Windows 10 would run just fine on it... much better than how Korora ran on my Asus laptop.
I have a personal laptop. I want to install (for example) Korora... which is designed to work on personal laptops. At least that's what they say it's for. They don't say Korora is only for a specific device.
I'm running Windows just fine on my phone, no issues at all... fyi.
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I'm not saying Linux is hard. It's not hard at all, and I was a Windows user first. I really like administering and managing Linux servers and systems. It's truly fun, and easy, and works great.
What I'm saying, is that on personal systems... Linux is easy, yes. But, I'm also saying that Linux doesn't work on most personal computers the way Windows does.
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@Tim_G said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
I'm not trying Linux in any way it's not meant.
You are taking hardware custom made for Windows, tested only with Windows, with drivers only for Windows and then comparing putting a third party OS on it versus the already installed, included one.
If you took hardware that shipped with Linux and tried this with Windows, you'd find that Windows is dramatically worse at handling this case than Linux is.
Your fundamental starting point is Windows designed hardware and saying Linux doesn't work as well. And that has to be true, because Windows is tested on it. but if you get hardware that is designed to run Linux, you get a totally different experience. So you are comparing apples to oranges. Is it true that installing Linux on Windows hardware is harder than Windows (99% of the time), yes, of course, but has nothing to do with this thread which is about users.
But does that mean Linux is harder? Nope. It just means you want to use Linux is harder situations.
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@Tim_G said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
What I'm saying, is that on personal systems... Linux is easy, yes. But, I'm also saying that Linux doesn't work on most personal computers the way Windows does.
Sure, because most personal computers are Windows designed machines.
But for end users, this doesn't matter, because they don't do the installs.
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Coincidentally, a thread just popped up on SW where a guy can get Linux on his workstation no problem but can't install Windows
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@scottalanmiller said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
@Tim_G said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
What I'm saying, is that on personal systems... Linux is easy, yes. But, I'm also saying that Linux doesn't work on most personal computers the way Windows does.
Sure, because most personal computers are Windows designed machines.
But for end users, this doesn't matter, because they don't do the installs.
Okay, so what personal systems are built for Linux, with manufacturers providing Linux drivers for whatever Linux distro I choose?
I also want to know why you even bothered trying Korora on your Asus ROG if you know it was designed for Windows?
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@Tim_G said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
I also want to know why you even bothered trying Korora on your Asus ROG if you know it was designed for Windows?
Because Windows is awful. That something is designed for something is hardly the only deciding factor.
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@scottalanmiller said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
Coincidentally, a thread just popped up on SW where a guy can get Linux on his workstation no problem but can't install Windows
Ahh, so an anomaly. It must be that way for everything then!
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@Tim_G said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
Okay, so what personal systems are built for Linux, with manufacturers providing Linux drivers for whatever Linux distro I choose?
Linux provides them nearly always. It's part of the OS that you choose. Dell, System76, white boxes that you build and loads of smaller makers make Linux designed machines. However, that you are asking this, means you are still distracted from the topic of this thread which is end users, NOT people installing OSes. Any talk of INSTALLING being hard means we aren't on the same topic.
