Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies
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@scottalanmiller said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
@Tim_G said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
I've never gone to a manufacturers website and was able to just download and click to install a driver and have it working on Linux... not ever. There's always a ton of voodoo and wizardry involved, if it's even doable.
That's a Windowsism and part of the point of the article. With Windows, drivers come from websites that you go to to download them. In the Linux world, you really don't do that. It's an option, but it's not how the ecosystem works. Doing so will cause lots of problems in most cases, hence the point of the original article that weird complexities from Windows backgrounds tends to make Linux harder.
That I didn't come from Windows and don't have these issues and that people coming from Windows have these issues... is the actually thing we are discussing. This is what we are saying we expect.
Yeah I guess you'd get it from the Repo that's for your Distro... I don't know, probably something like:
sudo dnf search yourHardware*or something like that... install it maybe, and hope and pray your system is still usable afterwards. Or some other method that wastes a ton of time, again, if it's even possible.
On servers and enterprise hardware, it's easy... Dell provides for you what you need for supported OSs. I have no issues there. I'm strictly talking personal use.
IMO, it's faster and easier to go to a website, find what you need for the OS you are using, install it, and it just works. No guessing CLI and hoping and praying.
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@Tim_G said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
@scottalanmiller said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
@Tim_G said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
I've never gone to a manufacturers website and was able to just download and click to install a driver and have it working on Linux... not ever. There's always a ton of voodoo and wizardry involved, if it's even doable.
That's a Windowsism and part of the point of the article. With Windows, drivers come from websites that you go to to download them. In the Linux world, you really don't do that. It's an option, but it's not how the ecosystem works. Doing so will cause lots of problems in most cases, hence the point of the original article that weird complexities from Windows backgrounds tends to make Linux harder.
That I didn't come from Windows and don't have these issues and that people coming from Windows have these issues... is the actually thing we are discussing. This is what we are saying we expect.
Yeah I guess you'd get it from the Repo that's for your Distro... I don't know, probably something like:
sudo dnf search yourHardware*or something like that... install it maybe, and hope and pray your system is still usable afterwards. Or some other method that wastes a ton of time, again, if it's even possible.
On servers and enterprise hardware, it's easy... Dell provides for you what you need for supported OSs. I have no issues there. I'm strictly talking personal use.
IMO, it's faster and easier to go to a website, find what you need for the OS you are using, install it, and it just works. No guessing CLI and hoping and praying.
Or you could just click on the desktop button that says "Install proprietary drivers" as found in almost every mainstream desktop distro.
Literally a 2 second job.
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@scottalanmiller said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
@Tim_G said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
On Windows, if something doesn't work, it's super easy to resolve... If Windows doesn't come with a working driver built in, it's almost effortless to get the driver and have it working quickly.
In my experience, this is less commonly true than it is in Linux. Once you have an OS that works with your hardware, I don't find these issues commonly on Linux.
Yeah, once you have an OS that works with all your hardware... there are no issues at all. Agree with you there!
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@scottalanmiller said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
@Tim_G said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
On Windows, if something doesn't work, it's super easy to resolve... If Windows doesn't come with a working driver built in, it's almost effortless to get the driver and have it working quickly.
I think you are equating initial OS compatibility with working with hardware. You try Linux distros in ways you'd never try Windows. Hence my Raspberry Pi example. Windows doesn't run on the world's most popular platform. Nor does it run on phones. Not on millions of different SBCs. Nor on Power or Sparc hardware. Linux runs on them all. You just rule all of that stuff out because you know Windows will never work. You are holding Linux to a totally different standard. If we flipped the approach Windows would work so much less often.
I'm not trying Linux in any way it's not meant. Are you saying Linux should not be installed on anything Windows come on natively from the manufacturer? I'm only aware of one manufacturer that just recently started selling systems with Linux natively. And yes, I'm sure Windows 10 would run just fine on it... much better than how Korora ran on my Asus laptop.
I have a personal laptop. I want to install (for example) Korora... which is designed to work on personal laptops. At least that's what they say it's for. They don't say Korora is only for a specific device.
I'm running Windows just fine on my phone, no issues at all... fyi.
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I'm not saying Linux is hard. It's not hard at all, and I was a Windows user first. I really like administering and managing Linux servers and systems. It's truly fun, and easy, and works great.
What I'm saying, is that on personal systems... Linux is easy, yes. But, I'm also saying that Linux doesn't work on most personal computers the way Windows does.
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@Tim_G said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
I'm not trying Linux in any way it's not meant.
You are taking hardware custom made for Windows, tested only with Windows, with drivers only for Windows and then comparing putting a third party OS on it versus the already installed, included one.
If you took hardware that shipped with Linux and tried this with Windows, you'd find that Windows is dramatically worse at handling this case than Linux is.
Your fundamental starting point is Windows designed hardware and saying Linux doesn't work as well. And that has to be true, because Windows is tested on it. but if you get hardware that is designed to run Linux, you get a totally different experience. So you are comparing apples to oranges. Is it true that installing Linux on Windows hardware is harder than Windows (99% of the time), yes, of course, but has nothing to do with this thread which is about users.
But does that mean Linux is harder? Nope. It just means you want to use Linux is harder situations.
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@Tim_G said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
What I'm saying, is that on personal systems... Linux is easy, yes. But, I'm also saying that Linux doesn't work on most personal computers the way Windows does.
Sure, because most personal computers are Windows designed machines.
But for end users, this doesn't matter, because they don't do the installs.
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Coincidentally, a thread just popped up on SW where a guy can get Linux on his workstation no problem but can't install Windows
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@scottalanmiller said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
@Tim_G said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
What I'm saying, is that on personal systems... Linux is easy, yes. But, I'm also saying that Linux doesn't work on most personal computers the way Windows does.
Sure, because most personal computers are Windows designed machines.
But for end users, this doesn't matter, because they don't do the installs.
Okay, so what personal systems are built for Linux, with manufacturers providing Linux drivers for whatever Linux distro I choose?
I also want to know why you even bothered trying Korora on your Asus ROG if you know it was designed for Windows?
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@Tim_G said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
I also want to know why you even bothered trying Korora on your Asus ROG if you know it was designed for Windows?
Because Windows is awful. That something is designed for something is hardly the only deciding factor.
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@scottalanmiller said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
Coincidentally, a thread just popped up on SW where a guy can get Linux on his workstation no problem but can't install Windows
Ahh, so an anomaly. It must be that way for everything then!
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@Tim_G said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
Okay, so what personal systems are built for Linux, with manufacturers providing Linux drivers for whatever Linux distro I choose?
Linux provides them nearly always. It's part of the OS that you choose. Dell, System76, white boxes that you build and loads of smaller makers make Linux designed machines. However, that you are asking this, means you are still distracted from the topic of this thread which is end users, NOT people installing OSes. Any talk of INSTALLING being hard means we aren't on the same topic.
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@Tim_G said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
@scottalanmiller said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
Coincidentally, a thread just popped up on SW where a guy can get Linux on his workstation no problem but can't install Windows
Ahh, so an anomaly. It must be that way for everything then!
Actually, like most installs of a different OS, it happens on older hardware and Linux is generally far easier to install on older hardware. In the real world, installing current Linux distros vs. current Windows on older systems, Linux almost always is easier. That's actually the majority installation case.
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Remember, this thread is ONLY about end users receiving working systems regardless of what hardware is used or what it is initially designed for. This is about users only. NOT about installations or IT use.
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@scottalanmiller said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
@Tim_G said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
Okay, so what personal systems are built for Linux, with manufacturers providing Linux drivers for whatever Linux distro I choose?
Linux provides them nearly always. It's part of the OS that you choose. Dell, System76, white boxes that you build and loads of smaller makers make Linux designed machines. However, that you are asking this, means you are still distracted from the topic of this thread which is end users, NOT people installing OSes. Any talk of INSTALLING being hard means we aren't on the same topic.
Right, I'll get back on track then. Take a 100% issue-free system running Linux. Then take a 100% issue-free system running Windows... I agree that Linux can be easier for a computer newbie with doing certain tasks.
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@Tim_G said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
@scottalanmiller said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
@Tim_G said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
Okay, so what personal systems are built for Linux, with manufacturers providing Linux drivers for whatever Linux distro I choose?
Linux provides them nearly always. It's part of the OS that you choose. Dell, System76, white boxes that you build and loads of smaller makers make Linux designed machines. However, that you are asking this, means you are still distracted from the topic of this thread which is end users, NOT people installing OSes. Any talk of INSTALLING being hard means we aren't on the same topic.
Right, I'll get back on track then. Take a 100% issue-free system running Linux. Then take a 100% issue-free system running Windows... I agree that Linux can be easier for a computer newbie with certain tasks.
Right. That's the topic at hand. And the point was that the newbie will often find those tasks easier than the experienced Windows user will find those same tasks.
Like how the more high school history education someone gets, the harder college history courses are for them.
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@scottalanmiller said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
Remember, this thread is ONLY about end users receiving working systems regardless of what hardware is used or what it is initially designed for. This is about users only. NOT about installations or IT use.
But, lets say a user has both and is introduced to a Korora and Win10 system at the same time. It's equally easy to click on a task bar icon to launch the web browser. I don't see how either can be easier than the other.
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A completely separate topic, and one worth discussing but in its own space, is "why are so few companies making Linux designed hardware?" And the answer is.. I have no idea. Loads of people want it. My guess is that because several do and you can find it, and because people who want Linux often also want to build their own machines, that Linux machines mostly exist in the whitebox market rather than in the prebuilt market.
Although if you consider devices like the SBC market which is now huge, the Steam machine market, the Chromebook market... there are more Linux designed devices out there than we picture. Half of the devices in my house are Linux based. Of the ones that are not, only Windows specific gaming machines are easier to get Windows on than Linux. The HPE and Lenovo (eww) laptops were actually better with Linux than Windows with zero install issues. Only the Asus RoG, which is gaming hardware, has the issues. Without the gaming hardware, I expect (and hope) that Asus laptops are broadly compatible with most Linux. I hope to test this as I really want a ZenBook.
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@Tim_G said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
@scottalanmiller said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
Remember, this thread is ONLY about end users receiving working systems regardless of what hardware is used or what it is initially designed for. This is about users only. NOT about installations or IT use.
But, lets say a user has both and is introduced to a Korora and Win10 system at the same time. It's equally easy to click on a task bar icon to launch the web browser. I don't see how either can be easier than the other.
One is clean and clear. The other is cluttered, full of moving images and such. Windows 10 is way more intimidating. It's hard to figure out even what is installed vs. what is an ad.
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@scottalanmiller said in Why Linux is Hard for Windows Users but Easy for Newbies:
Windows 10 is way more intimidating. It's hard to figure out even what is installed vs. what is an ad.
I'll have to score a point to @scottalanmiller for this one.
