FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues
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@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@bigbear said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@bigbear said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@bigbear said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@bigbear said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@bigbear said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
I also always thought NN was bullshit, based on speculation and phantom issues that did not exist. More specific legislation could have addressed issued like throttling, one of the guises the NN supporters used to bring this into effect. It just wasnt a well crafted law, and was widely open to the kind of abuse that would reduce competition.
There is no system for competition today. They could have retained NN and fixed these things. Removing NN is the issue, failing to fix the other things is an issue, using repealing NN under the excuse of the other things is an issue.
Consider the way TMobile could have been limited by NN with their unlimited streaming offering that Pai supporter and gave the green light on in Feb.
How would NN have affected TMobile? I honestly don't know how it would apply?
They wanted to offer free video streaming services to any video provider who would use the codec conversion to their wireless subscribers. Competitors cried foul play and used NN, Pai overruled then. That’s one of many reasons NN is gone. It’s not over through, just the beginning.
How does offering that violate NN?
They charged for HBO and Youtube data usage and didn’t charge for the video services that signed up. It’s “uneven access” like Scott said. But you see how it screws the customer and reduces competition?
They charge for HBO and Youtube because those two refuesed to use the codex... you said anyone who uses the codex gets a free ride - soo wake up HBO, install the damned codex for TMo and move on.. problem solved.
Exactly and why didn’t they want to use the codec???
Good fraking question I don't know why - do you?
So, here is what I hear in how you are responding... TMobile should be able to dictate anything they want. And if people don't comply... whether it is a technology they can't get, or they can't afford, or it isn't how their system works, or they just don't want to, that TMobile should be allowed to throttle it?
What I'm hearing is that you don't like the idea of NN, but like your ISP to have arbitrary right to pick and choose what they want and what they don't, to get ot you.
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@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@bigbear said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@bigbear said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@bigbear said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@bigbear said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@bigbear said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@bigbear said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
I also always thought NN was bullshit, based on speculation and phantom issues that did not exist. More specific legislation could have addressed issued like throttling, one of the guises the NN supporters used to bring this into effect. It just wasnt a well crafted law, and was widely open to the kind of abuse that would reduce competition.
There is no system for competition today. They could have retained NN and fixed these things. Removing NN is the issue, failing to fix the other things is an issue, using repealing NN under the excuse of the other things is an issue.
Consider the way TMobile could have been limited by NN with their unlimited streaming offering that Pai supporter and gave the green light on in Feb.
How would NN have affected TMobile? I honestly don't know how it would apply?
They wanted to offer free video streaming services to any video provider who would use the codec conversion to their wireless subscribers. Competitors cried foul play and used NN, Pai overruled then. That’s one of many reasons NN is gone. It’s not over through, just the beginning.
How does offering that violate NN?
They charged for HBO and Youtube data usage and didn’t charge for the video services that signed up. It’s “uneven access” like Scott said. But you see how it screws the customer and reduces competition?
They charge for HBO and Youtube because those two refuesed to use the codex... you said anyone who uses the codex gets a free ride - soo wake up HBO, install the damned codex for TMo and move on.. problem solved.
Exactly and why didn’t they want to use the codec???
Not "exactly", this is pure evil. TMobile should NEVER get to dictate how something like that is done, never. This is AWFUL.
They’re just saying “hey, we found a way to make steaming unlimited which users want, anyone can get on board”
And Verizon said “oh shit, that’s a big money maker, good thing NN can stop it”
Absolutely not competitive.
Verizon could have done the same thing by that logic.
Yes they could have, but then Verizon would loose millions/billions overage data fees.
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@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
can you provide examples of what TMo took advantage of? what they did that was against NN - please provide specifics.
What do you mean? We are talking about it already. They dictated that certain technology got a different priority than others.
no one ever said priority changes... only if it counted against your data allotment or not.
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Forcing companies to use a specific codec is way bigger of a problem than it sounds like. This is just an arbitrary control measure. Maybe this ONE is minor, but it's just the beginning. It's a fundamental problem. Today it is "pay the toll for this codec patent", tomorrow it is "only say positive things about the president"... the result is the same... a private company gets to choose what factors determine what data you get, and which data you don't.
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@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@bigbear said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@bigbear said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@bigbear said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@bigbear said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@bigbear said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@bigbear said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
I also always thought NN was bullshit, based on speculation and phantom issues that did not exist. More specific legislation could have addressed issued like throttling, one of the guises the NN supporters used to bring this into effect. It just wasnt a well crafted law, and was widely open to the kind of abuse that would reduce competition.
There is no system for competition today. They could have retained NN and fixed these things. Removing NN is the issue, failing to fix the other things is an issue, using repealing NN under the excuse of the other things is an issue.
Consider the way TMobile could have been limited by NN with their unlimited streaming offering that Pai supporter and gave the green light on in Feb.
How would NN have affected TMobile? I honestly don't know how it would apply?
They wanted to offer free video streaming services to any video provider who would use the codec conversion to their wireless subscribers. Competitors cried foul play and used NN, Pai overruled then. That’s one of many reasons NN is gone. It’s not over through, just the beginning.
How does offering that violate NN?
They charged for HBO and Youtube data usage and didn’t charge for the video services that signed up. It’s “uneven access” like Scott said. But you see how it screws the customer and reduces competition?
They charge for HBO and Youtube because those two refuesed to use the codex... you said anyone who uses the codex gets a free ride - soo wake up HBO, install the damned codex for TMo and move on.. problem solved.
Exactly and why didn’t they want to use the codec???
Not "exactly", this is pure evil. TMobile should NEVER get to dictate how something like that is done, never. This is AWFUL.
They’re just saying “hey, we found a way to make steaming unlimited which users want, anyone can get on board”
And Verizon said “oh shit, that’s a big money maker, good thing NN can stop it”
Absolutely not competitive.
Verizon could have done the same thing by that logic.
Yes they could have, but then Verizon would loose millions/billions overage data fees.
If that is true, why did it work out for TMobile?
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@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
can you provide examples of what TMo took advantage of? what they did that was against NN - please provide specifics.
What do you mean? We are talking about it already. They dictated that certain technology got a different priority than others.
no one ever said priority changes... only if it counted against your data allotment or not.
YOu said no one said priority changes, then you describe the priority changing. Which is it?
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@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
There was NO speed change here - at least not that I'm aware of. What you did have affected by CHOOSing to use the codex is that use of codex would NOT count against your data pool, nothing more.
So you get charged for some things but not others. Are you not seeing how this is EXACTLY what we want NN to stop?
I see this as a billing advantage in my favor... instead of somethign against me.
I always have the choice to use my alloted bandwidth for the codex I want to use.. but then I might run out and have to pay more..
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@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
There was NO speed change here - at least not that I'm aware of. What you did have affected by CHOOSing to use the codex is that use of codex would NOT count against your data pool, nothing more.
So you get charged for some things but not others. Are you not seeing how this is EXACTLY what we want NN to stop?
I see this as a billing advantage in my favor... instead of somethign against me.
That's the illusion. You pay and they decide which things get priority and which don't. It's never in your favour. Remember the discussion with Mike... in the end, the customer pays. TMobile decides which things you get faster or more of, and which you get less of. You never actually pay less, they just are saying that to make it sound okay.
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@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
Forcing companies to use a specific codec is way bigger of a problem than it sounds like. This is just an arbitrary control measure. Maybe this ONE is minor, but it's just the beginning. It's a fundamental problem. Today it is "pay the toll for this codec patent", tomorrow it is "only say positive things about the president"... the result is the same... a private company gets to choose what factors determine what data you get, and which data you don't.
But this is only ever on the 'free' portion of their service.. your paid portion you can still do anything you want.
Though I do see the line you're talking about.. and if they make the paid portion more and more expensive to the point where you can only really afford to use the free side.. (not really free, but 'included" in yoru base bill)..
yeah, problems, just like what's trying to be solved today by NN -
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
There was NO speed change here - at least not that I'm aware of. What you did have affected by CHOOSing to use the codex is that use of codex would NOT count against your data pool, nothing more.
So you get charged for some things but not others. Are you not seeing how this is EXACTLY what we want NN to stop?
Rather you got things free instead of being charged for them, due to an innovating codec. Forcing the codec would be wrong, so they gave the option to the video provider.
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@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
I always have the choice to use my alloted bandwidth for the codex I want to use.. but then I might run out and have to pay more..
Right, so you are solidly against NN. You are describing exactly what NN is about preventing - someone OTHER THAN YOU deciding what gets prioritized.
You are describing a terrible situation, where ISPs get to charge extra for some things, but others not. Or some things are fast and other slow.
Bottom line, your access isn't equal and someone else gets to manipulate what data gets what priority to you. Whether speed, bandwidth or cost priority. It's not equal. It's up to the ISPs.
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@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
Forcing companies to use a specific codec is way bigger of a problem than it sounds like. This is just an arbitrary control measure. Maybe this ONE is minor, but it's just the beginning. It's a fundamental problem. Today it is "pay the toll for this codec patent", tomorrow it is "only say positive things about the president"... the result is the same... a private company gets to choose what factors determine what data you get, and which data you don't.
But this is only ever on the 'free' portion of their service.. your paid portion you can still do anything you want.
There is no free portion. There is only the portion that they prioritize and the portion that they deprioritize. You are being controlled by their marketing.
It's ALL a portion paid for by you, it's just that they, not you, are in control of it.
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@bigbear said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
There was NO speed change here - at least not that I'm aware of. What you did have affected by CHOOSing to use the codex is that use of codex would NOT count against your data pool, nothing more.
So you get charged for some things but not others. Are you not seeing how this is EXACTLY what we want NN to stop?
Rather you got things free instead of being charged for them, due to an innovating codec. Forcing the codec would be wrong, so they gave the option to the video provider.
That's just marketing and I dont' buy it. They COULD just offer open Internet equal to all.
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@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
I always have the choice to use my alloted bandwidth for the codex I want to use.. but then I might run out and have to pay more..
Right, so you are solidly against NN. You are describing exactly what NN is about preventing - someone OTHER THAN YOU deciding what gets prioritized.
You are describing a terrible situation, where ISPs get to charge extra for some things, but others not. Or some things are fast and other slow.
Bottom line, your access isn't equal and someone else gets to manipulate what data gets what priority to you. Whether speed, bandwidth or cost priority. It's not equal. It's up to the ISPs.
That seems skewed. This is why title ii doesn’t work with the internet.
It’s being abused by one provider to prevent them from adding a price reducing offering to users, all because they don’t want to compete.
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@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@bigbear said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@bigbear said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@bigbear said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@bigbear said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@bigbear said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@bigbear said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
I also always thought NN was bullshit, based on speculation and phantom issues that did not exist. More specific legislation could have addressed issued like throttling, one of the guises the NN supporters used to bring this into effect. It just wasnt a well crafted law, and was widely open to the kind of abuse that would reduce competition.
There is no system for competition today. They could have retained NN and fixed these things. Removing NN is the issue, failing to fix the other things is an issue, using repealing NN under the excuse of the other things is an issue.
Consider the way TMobile could have been limited by NN with their unlimited streaming offering that Pai supporter and gave the green light on in Feb.
How would NN have affected TMobile? I honestly don't know how it would apply?
They wanted to offer free video streaming services to any video provider who would use the codec conversion to their wireless subscribers. Competitors cried foul play and used NN, Pai overruled then. That’s one of many reasons NN is gone. It’s not over through, just the beginning.
How does offering that violate NN?
They charged for HBO and Youtube data usage and didn’t charge for the video services that signed up. It’s “uneven access” like Scott said. But you see how it screws the customer and reduces competition?
They charge for HBO and Youtube because those two refuesed to use the codex... you said anyone who uses the codex gets a free ride - soo wake up HBO, install the damned codex for TMo and move on.. problem solved.
Exactly and why didn’t they want to use the codec???
Not "exactly", this is pure evil. TMobile should NEVER get to dictate how something like that is done, never. This is AWFUL.
They’re just saying “hey, we found a way to make steaming unlimited which users want, anyone can get on board”
And Verizon said “oh shit, that’s a big money maker, good thing NN can stop it”
Absolutely not competitive.
Verizon could have done the same thing by that logic.
Yes they could have, but then Verizon would loose millions/billions overage data fees.
If that is true, why did it work out for TMobile?
It's not that it worked out for TMo, it's that it would have reduced the bloated revenues that Verizon gets - i.e. like most normal competition.. the first horse to the show wins huge for a while.. but when a second horse arrives, now he has to compete, and that normally means revenues will be lower than when the first was monopoly.
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@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
Though I do see the line you're talking about.. and if they make the paid portion more and more expensive to the point where you can only really afford to use the free side.. (not really free, but 'included" in yoru base bill)..
yeah, problems, just like what's trying to be solved today by NNNot what you "can afford", but will you pay "extra" for conservative news? What if all news of one type is cheap and all news of another is expensive? How long before no one pays extra for certain news items?
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@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@bigbear said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@bigbear said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@bigbear said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@bigbear said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@bigbear said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@bigbear said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
I also always thought NN was bullshit, based on speculation and phantom issues that did not exist. More specific legislation could have addressed issued like throttling, one of the guises the NN supporters used to bring this into effect. It just wasnt a well crafted law, and was widely open to the kind of abuse that would reduce competition.
There is no system for competition today. They could have retained NN and fixed these things. Removing NN is the issue, failing to fix the other things is an issue, using repealing NN under the excuse of the other things is an issue.
Consider the way TMobile could have been limited by NN with their unlimited streaming offering that Pai supporter and gave the green light on in Feb.
How would NN have affected TMobile? I honestly don't know how it would apply?
They wanted to offer free video streaming services to any video provider who would use the codec conversion to their wireless subscribers. Competitors cried foul play and used NN, Pai overruled then. That’s one of many reasons NN is gone. It’s not over through, just the beginning.
How does offering that violate NN?
They charged for HBO and Youtube data usage and didn’t charge for the video services that signed up. It’s “uneven access” like Scott said. But you see how it screws the customer and reduces competition?
They charge for HBO and Youtube because those two refuesed to use the codex... you said anyone who uses the codex gets a free ride - soo wake up HBO, install the damned codex for TMo and move on.. problem solved.
Exactly and why didn’t they want to use the codec???
Not "exactly", this is pure evil. TMobile should NEVER get to dictate how something like that is done, never. This is AWFUL.
They’re just saying “hey, we found a way to make steaming unlimited which users want, anyone can get on board”
And Verizon said “oh shit, that’s a big money maker, good thing NN can stop it”
Absolutely not competitive.
Verizon could have done the same thing by that logic.
Yes they could have, but then Verizon would loose millions/billions overage data fees.
If that is true, why did it work out for TMobile?
It's not that it worked out for TMo, it's that it would have reduced the bloated revenues that Verizon gets - i.e. like most normal competition.. the first horse to the show wins huge for a while.. but when a second horse arrives, now he has to compete, and that normally means revenues will be lower than when the first was monopoly.
Anyone could do it overnight. This is just about getting unethical control.
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@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
can you provide examples of what TMo took advantage of? what they did that was against NN - please provide specifics.
What do you mean? We are talking about it already. They dictated that certain technology got a different priority than others.
no one ever said priority changes... only if it counted against your data allotment or not.
YOu said no one said priority changes, then you describe the priority changing. Which is it?
how is using free "included" time a priority change over using what you specifically are alloted?
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@bigbear said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
I always have the choice to use my alloted bandwidth for the codex I want to use.. but then I might run out and have to pay more..
Right, so you are solidly against NN. You are describing exactly what NN is about preventing - someone OTHER THAN YOU deciding what gets prioritized.
You are describing a terrible situation, where ISPs get to charge extra for some things, but others not. Or some things are fast and other slow.
Bottom line, your access isn't equal and someone else gets to manipulate what data gets what priority to you. Whether speed, bandwidth or cost priority. It's not equal. It's up to the ISPs.
That seems skewed. This is why title ii doesn’t work with the internet.
It’s being abused by one provider to prevent them from adding a price reducing offering to users, all because they don’t want to compete.
How does this "compete"? I want one thing, equal opportunity Internet. Period. Anything else isn't competing, it's earning through corruption.
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@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@bigbear said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
There was NO speed change here - at least not that I'm aware of. What you did have affected by CHOOSing to use the codex is that use of codex would NOT count against your data pool, nothing more.
So you get charged for some things but not others. Are you not seeing how this is EXACTLY what we want NN to stop?
Rather you got things free instead of being charged for them, due to an innovating codec. Forcing the codec would be wrong, so they gave the option to the video provider.
That's just marketing and I dont' buy it. They COULD just offer open Internet equal to all.
The codec drastically reduce bandwidth consumption with little impact to the end users viewing experience. So they made it free to their users.
The opposition wanted to make sure everyone had to charge for all video content at higher consumption rates, akin to fixing the price.
It was really innovative and title ii wasn’t designed to address it appropriately.
