What Makes Something An Appliance
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@scottalanmiller said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
The limiting might be critical... but that makes nearly everything that people normally consider to be an appliance, not to be.
@scottalanmiller said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
No, not limited at all. Zero limits. Hence the maintenance of "100% general purpose" in addition to the "intention" of storage.
As long the definition I provided (from Wikipedia) is accurate regarding the "limited configuration ability" part.... but assuming it is...
Exactly! There are literally no configuration limits with FreeNAS.
Next step I think we need to define 'limiting'... limiting by what means? User/password limiting? Like in the KACE example, they won't give you the password to make configuration changes. Or, limited due to design... as in it's just not possible.
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@Tim_G said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
Or, limited due to design... as in it's just not possible.
By that, I mean not possible as it is. It may be possible by installing more software, packages, addons, etc... but that's not it's original purpose.
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@Tim_G said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
@scottalanmiller said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
The limiting might be critical... but that makes nearly everything that people normally consider to be an appliance, not to be.
@scottalanmiller said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
No, not limited at all. Zero limits. Hence the maintenance of "100% general purpose" in addition to the "intention" of storage.
As long the definition I provided (from Wikipedia) is accurate regarding the "limited configuration ability" part.... but assuming it is...
Exactly! There are literally no configuration limits with FreeNAS.
Next step I think we need to define 'limiting'... limiting by what means? User/password limiting? Like in the KACE example, they won't give you the password to make configuration changes. Or, limited due to design... as in it's just not possible.
That I'm not sure. To limit in the later sense would require.... well a lot and would always be a grey area. Name any system that is limited all the way to the kernel. If you can run code directly on the kernel, it's not actually limited. So NetApp and Kace would not be appliances either if we included that definition. I think that has to be too far, it just feels like an impossible goal. I literally know no appliance at that point.
I would say that the password / license / support restriction would be enough.
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@Tim_G said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
@Tim_G said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
Or, limited due to design... as in it's just not possible.
By that, I mean not possible as it is. It may be possible by installing more software, packages, addons, etc... but that's not it's original purpose.
But what would be an example? All OSes require software added on to do things. The thing that makes something a general purpose OS is that you can run arbitrary code on it, not that it includes all potential functionality.
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If we went by limits like that, then suddenly the tables would turn and Windows would be seen as an appliance by not including most functionality and requiring you to add it on. FreeNAS comes with pretty much anything you can imagine from databases to desktops. But Windows requires add ons for nearly anything. Suddenly the most often anti-appliance becomes the appliances and the appliances become the servers.
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@scottalanmiller said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
@Tim_G said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
@Tim_G said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
Or, limited due to design... as in it's just not possible.
By that, I mean not possible as it is. It may be possible by installing more software, packages, addons, etc... but that's not it's original purpose.
But what would be an example? All OSes require software added on to do things. The thing that makes something a general purpose OS is that you can run arbitrary code on it, not that it includes all potential functionality.
Well, lets say you download FreeNAS and set it up on a physical or virtual server. You configure it for it's original purpose, as and only as a NAS. Now you password it, so nobody can make any configuration changes beyond the scope of the "NAS" purpose.
Now to who you set it up for, it can be considered at that point as an appliance. Edit: It's now serving as a specific purpose, and is now limiting their configuration ability.
But for you, it's not clear. Because you have the password, and can do what you want with hit. But who you set it up for and are supporting it for, different story.
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I'm going back and forth from both sides here, maybe that isn't clear. I try to prove and disprove at the same time, as if I'm a fanatic of both sides, and see which one stands.
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@Tim_G said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
@scottalanmiller said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
@Tim_G said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
@Tim_G said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
Or, limited due to design... as in it's just not possible.
By that, I mean not possible as it is. It may be possible by installing more software, packages, addons, etc... but that's not it's original purpose.
But what would be an example? All OSes require software added on to do things. The thing that makes something a general purpose OS is that you can run arbitrary code on it, not that it includes all potential functionality.
Well, lets say you download FreeNAS and set it up on a physical or virtual server. You configure it for it's original purpose, as and only as a NAS. Now you password it, so nobody can make any configuration changes beyond the scope of the "NAS" purpose.
Now to who you set it up for, it can be considered at that point as an appliance. Edit: It's now serving as a specific purpose, and is now limiting their configuration ability.
But for you, it's not clear. Because you have the password, and can do what you want with hit. But who you set it up for and are supporting it for, different story.
Right, and would apply equally to all servers in your environment.
What is a server to use is an appliance to the customer.
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@Tim_G said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
I'm going back and forth from both sides here, maybe that isn't clear. I try to prove and disprove at the same time, as if I'm a fanatic of both sides, and see which one stands.
Same with me. I want something to be an appliance, but if we can't define it meaningfully, we shouldn't accept the definition.
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Maybe we are looking at this all wrong. Maybe we are using the term "server" incorrectly and "appliance" should be the appropriate term for what we are trying to define.
Server is merely a service that supports clients. Typically it is just built with other servers within an OS.
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I'm starting to come to the conclusion that in computing, we can't come up with a meaningful enough definition for appliance. We can't draw a line because depending on your view, the line can go anywhere, and be pushed around so easily depending on who using said 'appliance'. Technically, all computing appliances like FreeNAS, KACE, etc, are only limiting their configuration by a username and password. Does that even count? At that point, the person who has the username and password is no longer limited and therefore is not an appliance. Then it's just a server.
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@NerdyDad said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
Maybe we are looking at this all wrong. Maybe we are using the term "server" incorrectly and "appliance" should be the appropriate term for what we are trying to define.
Server is merely a service that supports clients. Typically it is just built with other servers within an OS.
Maybe, that's definitely a thought. But okay, say we drop the term "server"... what do servers become?
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@Tim_G said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
I'm starting to come to the conclusion that in computing, we can't come up with a meaningful enough definition for appliance. We can't draw a line because depending on your view, the line can go anywhere, and be pushed around so easily depending on who using said 'appliance'. Technically, all computing appliances like FreeNAS, KACE, etc, are only limiting their configuration by a username and password. Does that even count? At that point, the person who has the username and password is no longer limited and therefore is not an appliance. Then it's just a server.
FreeNAS doesn't even do that. Kace is one category of "thing", FreeNAS is another. Maybe both are appliances, or neither, but whatever they fall into, they at least fall into different sub-categories.
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@scottalanmiller said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
@NerdyDad said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
Maybe we are looking at this all wrong. Maybe we are using the term "server" incorrectly and "appliance" should be the appropriate term for what we are trying to define.
Server is merely a service that supports clients. Typically it is just built with other servers within an OS.
Maybe, that's definitely a thought. But okay, say we drop the term "server"... what do servers become?
To me, a server is merely a service that runs on a device (computer, router, whatever) that supports other devices connected on a network. For example DHCP is a service, DNS is a service, etc.
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Well and there is another thing to consider.... the thread that this came from, this question was triggered because a few people wanted to exclude "appliances" from their list of servers, even though they are the most "unlimited" form of appliances where there were no limits on usage at all, not license nor technology. So that was the trigger to "well we need a real definition then."
Maybe what we need is to accept that an appliance is a sub-category of server, not an alternative to a server. That might solve things.
But is a NetApp still a server? Argh.
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@NerdyDad said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
@scottalanmiller said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
@NerdyDad said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
Maybe we are looking at this all wrong. Maybe we are using the term "server" incorrectly and "appliance" should be the appropriate term for what we are trying to define.
Server is merely a service that supports clients. Typically it is just built with other servers within an OS.
Maybe, that's definitely a thought. But okay, say we drop the term "server"... what do servers become?
To me, a server is merely a service that runs on a device (computer, router, whatever) that supports other devices connected on a network. For example DHCP is a service, DNS is a service, etc.
Right, that defines what a server is to you. But then how do you define the thing that we used to call a server? What will that become?
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@scottalanmiller said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
@NerdyDad said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
@scottalanmiller said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
@NerdyDad said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
Maybe we are looking at this all wrong. Maybe we are using the term "server" incorrectly and "appliance" should be the appropriate term for what we are trying to define.
Server is merely a service that supports clients. Typically it is just built with other servers within an OS.
Maybe, that's definitely a thought. But okay, say we drop the term "server"... what do servers become?
To me, a server is merely a service that runs on a device (computer, router, whatever) that supports other devices connected on a network. For example DHCP is a service, DNS is a service, etc.
Right, that defines what a server is to you. But then how do you define the thing that we used to call a server? What will that become?
I think that would depend as to whether it was physical or virtual. Physical = Host, Virtual = Guest Machine or VM.
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@NerdyDad said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
@scottalanmiller said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
@NerdyDad said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
@scottalanmiller said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
@NerdyDad said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
Maybe we are looking at this all wrong. Maybe we are using the term "server" incorrectly and "appliance" should be the appropriate term for what we are trying to define.
Server is merely a service that supports clients. Typically it is just built with other servers within an OS.
Maybe, that's definitely a thought. But okay, say we drop the term "server"... what do servers become?
To me, a server is merely a service that runs on a device (computer, router, whatever) that supports other devices connected on a network. For example DHCP is a service, DNS is a service, etc.
Right, that defines what a server is to you. But then how do you define the thing that we used to call a server? What will that become?
I think that would depend as to whether it was physical or virtual. Physical = Host, Virtual = Guest Machine or VM.
But we normally want to refer to the two systems as a single thing in this case.
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@scottalanmiller said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
So FreeNAS is an appliance
I wouldn't class FreeNAS as an appliance. To my mind, an appliance is a hardware/software combination that's purpose-built to perform a single, specific task in a turnkey manner.
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I see an appliance as something that has been built in such a way that you <generally> don't want or need to know the inner workings of it. It would have a GUI (web or otherwise) for you to manage it from.
Something like the Scale systems comes to mind.
