Solved Hyper V replica VS Veeam B&R Replica.
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@scottalanmiller said in Hyper V replica VS Veeam B&R Replica.:
I've worked with a lot of companies, including some very large ones, that have run these numbers and indeed, just don't have enough impact from an outage to justify a second server.
He already has a second server with unused licenses. He's already setting things up. To bring up another DC while you are already setting things up is only minutes of work. It can actually be 0 minutes of work if you do it during the time you are "waiting" for things to complete on the other server, instead of watching a progress bar.
I do see your point, though. If I were to consult for some random small business with nothing set up, and they didn't have much at all... lack of equipment, users, resources, etc... then yes, there's just simply no good reason at all to buy double everything JUST to have a 2nd DC. That's so obvious it should go without saying.
I don't walk in to multiple companies every day who need things set up from scratch or rearranged... or go in to different companies decommissioning their 2nd DCs. What's "MOST" or "NORMAL" for you may not be "most" or "normal" for me.
I'm talking about already established SMBs, who have an entire infrastructure set up, already have file servers, application servers, switches, Hypervisors (multiple), etc. I don't know what you call a "normal" SMB, maybe I'm just used to bigger existing establishments. But it's rare (in my location) that I would walk into a place that doesn't already have multiple Hypervisors and licenses. Or at least consolidation opportunities to free up licenses. "Most" SMBs I've come buy are large enough in the relevant aspects that a second DC/infrastructure server are already in place, or that's what they are needing.
@scottalanmiller said in Hyper V replica VS Veeam B&R Replica.:
@Tim_G said in Hyper V replica VS Veeam B&R Replica.:
I can't imagine how infrequent it would be in a small enough shot where someone would consider a single DC.
It should be "most of the time." Give me some examples and, if they haven't artificially and probably foolishly created fragility that depends on AD itself, I can show that if they can justify HA, how near of a thing it actually is. And it is not about size, it's about how they are dependent on the workload. You can easily have a thousand person company that doesn't need failover.
Second servers are for getting your downtime under six hours. You can very cheaply have a very, very reliable "six hour outage" reliability with just one server and good backups.
I think you had taken that sentence out of context, and also misunderstood it.
I was referring to the amount of maintenance a 2nd DC vm would require. I'm saying almost none and rarely. I so infrequently have to touch an infrastructure server vm (such as the DC) that I sometimes forget they exist. If I have to add a user to AD, I don't do it on DC1 and then on DC2 doing twice the work. You do it once, via RSAT. Updates can happen automatically during off hours. That's no maintenance requirement either. I don't know why you'd have to spend time on the 2nd DC vm increasing maintenance time.
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@scottalanmiller said in Hyper V replica VS Veeam B&R Replica.:
@Tim_G said in Hyper V replica VS Veeam B&R Replica.:
That's not what I mean. You can't run AD without DNS. So this means the company is running a server with ONLY AD on it, no dns, dhcp, etc. So if AD can go down for "weeks", you simply don't need it. AD being down is not being resilient to downtime. It's simply not using a service you are running.
That's not true, it just gets cached. And in the small business that was in question, they did not use AD for the only DNS and so did not notice that either. You are using several assumptions to get the idea of "not needed." AD can't run without DNS, but DNS will run easily without AD. Just because you only need something once in a while, doesn't mean that you don't need it. Need meaning "it's being used." Technically, no one "needs" AD. There is always an alternative.
Personally, every environment that I've run and used an non AD DNS as a secondary have run into local issues. These issues come to play when the PC switches to that secondary DNS server for whatever reason (it will never fail back unless the secondary has a failure or the PC is rebooted). So, you reboot the AD box midday, you basically have to reboot every PC afterwards if you have a secondary DNS that's not also a DNS server for your internal network.
Now, that said - I completely agree with Scott, most SMBs only need one DNS server. If it goes down, then you enable DHCP on the firewall/switch, whatever and have everyone reboot, and you're back online in mins. The cost of purchasing and maintaining a second server is so rarely worth it.
Even MS considers this completely OK - they sold Small Business Server which was meant as a one server solution.
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@Dashrender said in Hyper V replica VS Veeam B&R Replica.:
The cost of purchasing and maintaining a second server is so rarely worth it.
See! That's the thing, I never implied purchasing a whole server and Windows license and setting up everything having to do with it from scratch... JUST to have a second Active Directory instance.
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@openit said in Hyper V replica VS Veeam B&R Replica.:
@scottalanmiller said in Hyper V replica VS Veeam B&R Replica.:
@openit said in Hyper V replica VS Veeam B&R Replica.:
You should never run a physical server. I can't tell if you are saying that you are, or just mentioning where your VMs are running.
Yes, we are on Physical Server. I understand how good to be with VMs in the view of Backup and Disaster recovery options.
This is the environment I got here when I joined to this company, and planning for Virtual environment. So prior to implementing, I am learning and researching.....and of course, discussing here
@Tim_G Did I miss the post where the OP said he had multiple servers and licenses? I only see the above one where he claims to have a current server with physical install.
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@Tim_G said in Hyper V replica VS Veeam B&R Replica.:
@Dashrender said in Hyper V replica VS Veeam B&R Replica.:
The cost of purchasing and maintaining a second server is so rarely worth it.
See! That's the thing, I never implied purchasing a whole server and Windows license and setting up everything having to do with it from scratch... JUST to have a second Active Directory instance.
Yes you have.
@Tim_G said in Hyper V replica VS Veeam B&R Replica.:
First, you don't want to replicate DC's. Have two DC's, both virtualized, on different physical servers, non-replicated.
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@Tim_G The OP specifically stated they have a single Physical server doing AD + file shares.
There is not currently anything else, but he was looking at a second server for redundancy. Some gave various other opinions, I gave my opinion.
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@Tim_G said in Hyper V replica VS Veeam B&R Replica.:
@Dashrender said in Hyper V replica VS Veeam B&R Replica.:
The cost of purchasing and maintaining a second server is so rarely worth it.
See! That's the thing, I never implied purchasing a whole server and Windows license and setting up everything having to do with it from scratch... JUST to have a second Active Directory instance.
Perhaps not (I'd have to re-read the whole thread, tl;dwra), but you're clearly on the side that says if the option allows, definitely have two DCs. And most of use are saying that that's crazy.
You mention your customers - I wonder, do you not think any of your customers will ever get to the point where the power in a single server will hold their entire company?
I have 90 users, I only need one server and a few VMs. My situation should be
VM host
.....AD (DNS, DHCP)
.....File server
.....backup server
.....WSUS (if I even really need this anymore - my bandwidth is high enough I probably don't)I don't need a second server for failover of my fileserver.
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@openit said in Hyper V replica VS Veeam B&R Replica.:
This is my future plan to setup Windows Server Redundancy ( DC+File Server).
Go back and decide if you need redundancy from a business point of view.
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@JaredBusch said in Hyper V replica VS Veeam B&R Replica.:
@openit said in Hyper V replica VS Veeam B&R Replica.:
This is my future plan to setup Windows Server Redundancy ( DC+File Server).
Go back and decide if you need redundancy from a business point of view.
Exactly - as mentioned - a good backup might be all that you need. Though you should image your current server and install a hypervisor under it.
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@JaredBusch said in Hyper V replica VS Veeam B&R Replica.:
@Tim_G The OP specifically stated they have a single Physical server doing AD + file shares.
There is not currently anything else, but he was looking at a second server for redundancy. Some gave various other opinions, I gave my opinion.
I just went back and re-read everything. I feel like an idiot now. Yes you are right there's only one physical server running Windows that is doing AD and file services.
But in my defense, all that talk of replication, HA, clustering, failover, Veeam replica, Starwind, vSAN, etc... I was under the impression that we were talking about an already established environment and infrastructure with existing multiple hypervisors. Because my line of thought was why all that, for just a single server running one instance of Windows, unless there's already an existing establishment that makes talk of all that worth it.
Honestly, with his current "single server setup"... there's no way I would recommend going out and buying more servers and Windows licenses just to set up another DC. That's just crazy.
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I get most of my experience from SMBs with multi-sites over slow WANs... sometimes fast WANs, but still not fast enough to be considered the same site. Most of my cases are instances consisting of servers at each site, or an RODC if it's small enough and without necessary security. I couldn't make due with only one DC in almost all of my "normal SMB" experiences.
Though, I can imagine a small shop of only one hypervisor that hosts everything it needs, and can get by without multiple DCs. In that case backups couldn't be any more valuable. If I walked in to a place like that, I would definitely never suggest purchasing a second hypervisor to make AD "HA".
I think I was going down a different path than everyone else.
I also believe that it comes down to the needs of the business and other factors. I just hate seeing things like "ALL" or "MOST SMBs"... blanket statements and the like. Because if I see that, then that means you or whoever is referring to all or most of my cases, too. And if it isn't true for me, I think it needs to be corrected.
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@Tim_G said in Hyper V replica VS Veeam B&R Replica.:
@JaredBusch said in Hyper V replica VS Veeam B&R Replica.:
@Tim_G The OP specifically stated they have a single Physical server doing AD + file shares.
There is not currently anything else, but he was looking at a second server for redundancy. Some gave various other opinions, I gave my opinion.
I just went back and re-read everything. I feel like an idiot now. Yes you are right there's only one physical server running Windows that is doing AD and file services.
But in my defense, all that talk of replication, HA, clustering, failover, Veeam replica, Starwind, vSAN, etc... I was under the impression that we were talking about an already established environment and infrastructure with existing multiple hypervisors. Because my line of thought was why all that, for just a single server running one instance of Windows, unless there's already an existing establishment that makes talk of all that worth it.
Honestly, with his current "single server setup"... there's no way I would recommend going out and buying more servers and Windows licenses just to set up another DC. That's just crazy.
Gotcha, that makes more sense then
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@Tim_G said in Hyper V replica VS Veeam B&R Replica.:
I get most of my experience from SMBs with multi-sites over slow WANs... sometimes fast WANs, but still not fast enough to be considered the same site. Most of my cases are instances consisting of servers at each site, or an RODC if it's small enough and without necessary security. I couldn't make due with only one DC in almost all of my "normal SMB" experiences.
Before we killed off AD, we spent a long time doing single server AD over WAN. AD was hosted on Azure (bad idea, but only because it was Azure) and it worked great.
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I had 4 external locations, now only 2 with VPN links between them. The main office was on a 10/10 internet connection. We only had one AD DC at the main office, had no need for a DC at the remote branches.
Printing was all kept local at the branch, no print server, just direct IP Printing. There was very little need for files from the main site, so this worked well for 8 years.
I can definitely understand needing a local server if you had a lot of local file usage, but AD shouldn't have been needed to be provided onsite.
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@JaredBusch said in Hyper V replica VS Veeam B&R Replica.:
Honestly, IMO, from what little we know of the OP's environment, he does not need replication either. Just a single server and a backup.
I see.
Actually I have inquired with our management people about the "acceptable downtime for server", they said "one day" is okay. Here according to management (aka user) is meant for File Server and as you know, they are not aware of what DC, DNS etc. are.
Most of our production work depends on File Server, and based on above info. acceptable downtime for File Server will one day.
And for any hardware failure, the repair service will be next working day. The vendor from whom we have warranty tie up are working 5 days a week and we are working 6 days a week. If any failure happens at last working day on the week and spare part is not available immediately with them, we may consider around "3 days downtime for server to come up"
And you know, how the situation of IT guyz in this process.
"So I am thinking of Server Redundancy, for company benefit" and of course "to have piece of mind for myself
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@JaredBusch said in Hyper V replica VS Veeam B&R Replica.:
@openit said in Hyper V replica VS Veeam B&R Replica.:
This is my future plan to setup Windows Server Redundancy ( DC+File Server).
Go back and decide if you need redundancy from a business point of view.
I believe, Yes.
For Management : Minimized Downtime
For IT : Peace of Mind -
@openit said in Hyper V replica VS Veeam B&R Replica.:
@JaredBusch said in Hyper V replica VS Veeam B&R Replica.:
@openit said in Hyper V replica VS Veeam B&R Replica.:
This is my future plan to setup Windows Server Redundancy ( DC+File Server).
Go back and decide if you need redundancy from a business point of view.
I believe, Yes.
For Management : Minimized Downtime
For IT : Peace of MindThought to clarify few things :
- Yes, currently we have one physical server. Second server, Veeam (or whatever) needs to purchase for this replication process.
- About users, we have 110+ who depends on File Server.
- Even if it's expensive, I just wanted to propose to my management, it's different thing, if they don't accept it. At least, I will not get blamed for long downtime (if it happens), because I proposed, they didn't accepted it, so their problem
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By the way, I was not aware that Microsoft server license for second server is required.
So, following will be new expenses, if I plan :
- New server (for second one)
- Veeam (or any software)
- Microsoft server license
Am I correct ?
Of course, my time to learn, test and implement
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@openit said in Hyper V replica VS Veeam B&R Replica.:
@JaredBusch said in Hyper V replica VS Veeam B&R Replica.:
@openit said in Hyper V replica VS Veeam B&R Replica.:
This is my future plan to setup Windows Server Redundancy ( DC+File Server).
Go back and decide if you need redundancy from a business point of view.
I believe, Yes.
For Management : Minimized Downtime
For IT : Peace of MindThat's never how you should look at it.
For business: Whatever makes the money
IT: Whatever is good for the business -
@openit said in Hyper V replica VS Veeam B&R Replica.:
For Management : Minimized Downtime
Minimizing downtime is not a business goal. Making the most money, is. If minimizing downtime loses the company money, IT has failed at its job.
