Buying vs Saving Economic Theory
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@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Francesco-Provino said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
I have no clue what that state of the economy of Italy is, but I do recall hearing about how poor the internet infrastructure is there.
Not that I (as a US citizen) can say much.. in non cities, it's pretty horrible too.
In the little cities of Sicily is not that good (7-20Mbit ADSL), but we're going to get FTTC (50Mbit and up) this year in almost every city with >10k peoples. The big cities (>200k) are all already covered with FTTC, an the biggest one are already on full FTTH with connectivity up to 1Gbps.
It's comea long way quickly. Italy was terrible a few years ago.
Maybe it was just… not cheap. You can have HDSL 8/8Mbit everywhere in Italy from ~2006. As of today, you can pay the telco to do an FTTH link to any site in the whole country, up to at least 10Mbit. 100Mbit for the 99% of the country, I think. 80% can get 1Gbit, for sure. Price are very high, but of course is technically possible. I'm following a project of connectivity upgrade to a custom 10Mbit FTTH. Of course band is totally guaranteed, so is packet loss (< 10^-4), latency (<30ms), jitter (<40ms). Real value are something like 4ms of latency at max.
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@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Francesco-Provino said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@DustinB3403 said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@Mike-Davis and what exactly is wrong with WEP?!
(sarcasm boys)
That's all that they have here on Sicily where we are
What? Over 95% of WLAN in Sicily is WPA2, from my experience.
You must have met some of the 5% outdated/misconfigured stuff.
New provider's WLAN setup for consumer are ALL WPA2 and they have been WPA2 for years. Every public structure have WPA2 for sure. Every public university in Italy is part of EduRoam, so is WPA2 enterprise with RADIUS.You don't deal with the tourism rental business much, I would guess.
Of course, they are fully on-the-cheap regarding IT :). Mosh is your friend!
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@Francesco-Provino said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Francesco-Provino said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@DustinB3403 said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@Mike-Davis and what exactly is wrong with WEP?!
(sarcasm boys)
That's all that they have here on Sicily where we are
What? Over 95% of WLAN in Sicily is WPA2, from my experience.
You must have met some of the 5% outdated/misconfigured stuff.
New provider's WLAN setup for consumer are ALL WPA2 and they have been WPA2 for years. Every public structure have WPA2 for sure. Every public university in Italy is part of EduRoam, so is WPA2 enterprise with RADIUS.You don't deal with the tourism rental business much, I would guess.
Of course, they are fully on-the-cheap regarding IT :). Mosh is your friend!
Mosh?
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@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Francesco-Provino said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Francesco-Provino said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@DustinB3403 said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@Mike-Davis and what exactly is wrong with WEP?!
(sarcasm boys)
That's all that they have here on Sicily where we are
What? Over 95% of WLAN in Sicily is WPA2, from my experience.
You must have met some of the 5% outdated/misconfigured stuff.
New provider's WLAN setup for consumer are ALL WPA2 and they have been WPA2 for years. Every public structure have WPA2 for sure. Every public university in Italy is part of EduRoam, so is WPA2 enterprise with RADIUS.You don't deal with the tourism rental business much, I would guess.
Of course, they are fully on-the-cheap regarding IT :). Mosh is your friend!
Mosh?
EDITThis one.
Best thing since sliced bread!
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@Francesco-Provino said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Francesco-Provino said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Francesco-Provino said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@DustinB3403 said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@Mike-Davis and what exactly is wrong with WEP?!
(sarcasm boys)
That's all that they have here on Sicily where we are
What? Over 95% of WLAN in Sicily is WPA2, from my experience.
You must have met some of the 5% outdated/misconfigured stuff.
New provider's WLAN setup for consumer are ALL WPA2 and they have been WPA2 for years. Every public structure have WPA2 for sure. Every public university in Italy is part of EduRoam, so is WPA2 enterprise with RADIUS.You don't deal with the tourism rental business much, I would guess.
Of course, they are fully on-the-cheap regarding IT :). Mosh is your friend!
Mosh?
This one. Best thing since sliced bread, as you Americans usually say!
I take offense to that statement....
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@DustinB3403 said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Francesco-Provino said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Francesco-Provino said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Francesco-Provino said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@DustinB3403 said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@Mike-Davis and what exactly is wrong with WEP?!
(sarcasm boys)
That's all that they have here on Sicily where we are
What? Over 95% of WLAN in Sicily is WPA2, from my experience.
You must have met some of the 5% outdated/misconfigured stuff.
New provider's WLAN setup for consumer are ALL WPA2 and they have been WPA2 for years. Every public structure have WPA2 for sure. Every public university in Italy is part of EduRoam, so is WPA2 enterprise with RADIUS.You don't deal with the tourism rental business much, I would guess.
Of course, they are fully on-the-cheap regarding IT :). Mosh is your friend!
Mosh?
This one. Best thing since sliced bread, as you Americans usually say!
I take offense to that statement....
EDIT
Ok, maybe I was rough, sorry.
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@Francesco-Provino said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Francesco-Provino said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Francesco-Provino said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@DustinB3403 said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@Mike-Davis and what exactly is wrong with WEP?!
(sarcasm boys)
That's all that they have here on Sicily where we are
What? Over 95% of WLAN in Sicily is WPA2, from my experience.
You must have met some of the 5% outdated/misconfigured stuff.
New provider's WLAN setup for consumer are ALL WPA2 and they have been WPA2 for years. Every public structure have WPA2 for sure. Every public university in Italy is part of EduRoam, so is WPA2 enterprise with RADIUS.You don't deal with the tourism rental business much, I would guess.
Of course, they are fully on-the-cheap regarding IT :). Mosh is your friend!
Mosh?
This one. Best thing since sliced bread, as you Americans usually say!
Ah ha. I've not used that, I need to play around with it.
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@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Francesco-Provino said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Francesco-Provino said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Francesco-Provino said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@DustinB3403 said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@Mike-Davis and what exactly is wrong with WEP?!
(sarcasm boys)
That's all that they have here on Sicily where we are
What? Over 95% of WLAN in Sicily is WPA2, from my experience.
You must have met some of the 5% outdated/misconfigured stuff.
New provider's WLAN setup for consumer are ALL WPA2 and they have been WPA2 for years. Every public structure have WPA2 for sure. Every public university in Italy is part of EduRoam, so is WPA2 enterprise with RADIUS.You don't deal with the tourism rental business much, I would guess.
Of course, they are fully on-the-cheap regarding IT :). Mosh is your friend!
Mosh?
This one. Best thing since sliced bread, as you Americans usually say!
Ah ha. I've not used that, I need to play around with it.
It can keep you ssh connection indefinitely open, under any connection failure condition, for any amount of time. It also do local caching of input in a very smart way. It's also included in every common distro, so no reason to avoid it.
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I've edited my precedent comments, I apologize for any eventual offense.
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@Francesco-Provino said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@DustinB3403 said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Francesco-Provino said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Francesco-Provino said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Francesco-Provino said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@DustinB3403 said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@Mike-Davis and what exactly is wrong with WEP?!
(sarcasm boys)
That's all that they have here on Sicily where we are
What? Over 95% of WLAN in Sicily is WPA2, from my experience.
You must have met some of the 5% outdated/misconfigured stuff.
New provider's WLAN setup for consumer are ALL WPA2 and they have been WPA2 for years. Every public structure have WPA2 for sure. Every public university in Italy is part of EduRoam, so is WPA2 enterprise with RADIUS.You don't deal with the tourism rental business much, I would guess.
Of course, they are fully on-the-cheap regarding IT :). Mosh is your friend!
Mosh?
This one. Best thing since sliced bread, as you Americans usually say!
I take offense to that statement....
EDIT
Ok, maybe I was rough, sorry.
You weren't. that IS an american saying. don't censor yourself because of some one else's insecurities.
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@JaredBusch said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Francesco-Provino said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@DustinB3403 said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Francesco-Provino said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Francesco-Provino said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Francesco-Provino said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@DustinB3403 said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@Mike-Davis and what exactly is wrong with WEP?!
(sarcasm boys)
That's all that they have here on Sicily where we are
What? Over 95% of WLAN in Sicily is WPA2, from my experience.
You must have met some of the 5% outdated/misconfigured stuff.
New provider's WLAN setup for consumer are ALL WPA2 and they have been WPA2 for years. Every public structure have WPA2 for sure. Every public university in Italy is part of EduRoam, so is WPA2 enterprise with RADIUS.You don't deal with the tourism rental business much, I would guess.
Of course, they are fully on-the-cheap regarding IT :). Mosh is your friend!
Mosh?
This one. Best thing since sliced bread, as you Americans usually say!
I take offense to that statement....
EDIT
Ok, maybe I was rough, sorry.
You weren't. that IS an american saying. don't censor yourself because of some one else's insecurities.
god knows JB doesn't
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@Francesco-Provino said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
I've edited my precedent comments, I apologize for any eventual offense.
Offend away, it's insults we won't like
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The problem with the 2% working with 98% not theory is that it doesn't accommodate for the human desire for power. It would be an amazing situation to be in except for the fact that some people will not be content with what they receive and not interested in earning more. If everyone lived free from fear, then it will work, but very few people do, and that leads to seeking power to insulate from fear.
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@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
The problem with the 2% working with 98% not theory is that it doesn't accommodate for the human desire for power. It would be an amazing situation to be in except for the fact that some people will not be content with what they receive and not interested in earning more. If everyone lived free from fear, then it will work, but very few people do, and that leads to seeking power to insulate from fear.
That's true, except that nearly all of the 98% don't have power. The majority of people don't seek to be leaders and fewer still manage to be. Those getting power from work are the few, not the many. And many that do use it for evil, so curtailing that has a major positive benefit. Few people derive power from work, and given the protection of the system it removes much of the need for power.
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@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
The problem with the 2% working with 98% not theory is that it doesn't accommodate for the human desire for power. It would be an amazing situation to be in except for the fact that some people will not be content with what they receive and not interested in earning more. If everyone lived free from fear, then it will work, but very few people do, and that leads to seeking power to insulate from fear.
That's true, except that nearly all of the 98% don't have power. The majority of people don't seek to be leaders and fewer still manage to be. Those getting power from work are the few, not the many. And many that do use it for evil, so curtailing that has a major positive benefit. Few people derive power from work, and given the protection of the system it removes much of the need for power.
I don't know that removing the economic factor affects the desire for power. I'm not addressing power via work, but desire for power over others in general. Gangs do not exist to commit crimes. They exist because of fear, and people control others or allow themselves to be controlled to mitigate fear. Economics play into it, but are not the primary motivator.
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@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
The problem with the 2% working with 98% not theory is that it doesn't accommodate for the human desire for power. It would be an amazing situation to be in except for the fact that some people will not be content with what they receive and not interested in earning more. If everyone lived free from fear, then it will work, but very few people do, and that leads to seeking power to insulate from fear.
That's true, except that nearly all of the 98% don't have power. The majority of people don't seek to be leaders and fewer still manage to be. Those getting power from work are the few, not the many. And many that do use it for evil, so curtailing that has a major positive benefit. Few people derive power from work, and given the protection of the system it removes much of the need for power.
I don't know that removing the economic factor affects the desire for power. I'm not addressing power via work, but desire for power over others in general. Gangs do not exist to commit crimes. They exist because of fear, and people control others or allow themselves to be controlled to mitigate fear. Economics play into it, but are not the primary motivator.
We may not remove the desire for power, but does it encourage it? Social structures will exist just the same. Power tiering will still be there just like before.
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@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
The problem with the 2% working with 98% not theory is that it doesn't accommodate for the human desire for power. It would be an amazing situation to be in except for the fact that some people will not be content with what they receive and not interested in earning more. If everyone lived free from fear, then it will work, but very few people do, and that leads to seeking power to insulate from fear.
That's true, except that nearly all of the 98% don't have power. The majority of people don't seek to be leaders and fewer still manage to be. Those getting power from work are the few, not the many. And many that do use it for evil, so curtailing that has a major positive benefit. Few people derive power from work, and given the protection of the system it removes much of the need for power.
I don't know that removing the economic factor affects the desire for power. I'm not addressing power via work, but desire for power over others in general. Gangs do not exist to commit crimes. They exist because of fear, and people control others or allow themselves to be controlled to mitigate fear. Economics play into it, but are not the primary motivator.
We may not remove the desire for power, but does it encourage it? Social structures will exist just the same. Power tiering will still be there just like before.
That is my point. the 2/98 theory does not account for that, and is likely to breakdown like most social structures that ignore this aspect of humanity, a la Soviet Russia.
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@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
The problem with the 2% working with 98% not theory is that it doesn't accommodate for the human desire for power. It would be an amazing situation to be in except for the fact that some people will not be content with what they receive and not interested in earning more. If everyone lived free from fear, then it will work, but very few people do, and that leads to seeking power to insulate from fear.
That's true, except that nearly all of the 98% don't have power. The majority of people don't seek to be leaders and fewer still manage to be. Those getting power from work are the few, not the many. And many that do use it for evil, so curtailing that has a major positive benefit. Few people derive power from work, and given the protection of the system it removes much of the need for power.
I don't know that removing the economic factor affects the desire for power. I'm not addressing power via work, but desire for power over others in general. Gangs do not exist to commit crimes. They exist because of fear, and people control others or allow themselves to be controlled to mitigate fear. Economics play into it, but are not the primary motivator.
We may not remove the desire for power, but does it encourage it? Social structures will exist just the same. Power tiering will still be there just like before.
That is my point. the 2/98 theory does not account for that, and is likely to breakdown like most social structures that ignore this aspect of humanity, a la Soviet Russia.
My point was that the same power structures will be there that are there now, the issues you are concerned about exist today. This isn't an economic model designed to fix them, but it might help them. I don't see the reason to feel that it would hurt them. And remember that it's not like soviet Russia, it is not a planned economy. People are totally free to pursue ambitions, so all current outlets for power will still exist, none removed. So none of your concerns would apply like they would in polar opposite models. Soviet Russia provided everyone's jobs, 100% workers, it's the extreme opposite from an economic model.
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@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
The problem with the 2% working with 98% not theory is that it doesn't accommodate for the human desire for power. It would be an amazing situation to be in except for the fact that some people will not be content with what they receive and not interested in earning more. If everyone lived free from fear, then it will work, but very few people do, and that leads to seeking power to insulate from fear.
That's true, except that nearly all of the 98% don't have power. The majority of people don't seek to be leaders and fewer still manage to be. Those getting power from work are the few, not the many. And many that do use it for evil, so curtailing that has a major positive benefit. Few people derive power from work, and given the protection of the system it removes much of the need for power.
I don't know that removing the economic factor affects the desire for power. I'm not addressing power via work, but desire for power over others in general. Gangs do not exist to commit crimes. They exist because of fear, and people control others or allow themselves to be controlled to mitigate fear. Economics play into it, but are not the primary motivator.
We may not remove the desire for power, but does it encourage it? Social structures will exist just the same. Power tiering will still be there just like before.
That is my point. the 2/98 theory does not account for that, and is likely to breakdown like most social structures that ignore this aspect of humanity, a la Soviet Russia.
My point was that the same power structures will be there that are there now, the issues you are concerned about exist today. This isn't an economic model designed to fix them, but it might help them. I don't see the reason to feel that it would hurt them. And remember that it's not like soviet Russia, it is not a planned economy. People are totally free to pursue ambitions, so all current outlets for power will still exist, none removed. So none of your concerns would apply like they would in polar opposite models. Soviet Russia provided everyone's jobs, 100% workers, it's the extreme opposite from an economic model.
I'm not equating economic models. I was comparing social structures that ignore fear and power as basic human motivations. The reason that properly checked capitalism has been so stable (in general) is that it accounts for these things. It assumes that everyone is fundamentally greedy and self-centered, and works accordingly. Every social or economic structure that ignores this aspect of the human experience has failed, sometimes spectacularly. And before there is any possibility of drawing this conclusion, we are not functioning in a truely capitalistic society in the US today, so I am not advocating that where we are today is a good place either socially or economically.
