How to Require TLS for Outbound SMTP Connections with MDaemon
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@scottalanmiller said in How to Require TLS for Outbound SMTP Connections with MDaemon:
@BRRABill said in How to Require TLS for Outbound SMTP Connections with MDaemon:
The paranoid me, though, will still never trust e-mail.
That's irrational you, not paranoid you. Paranoia would drive you to email as the most secure, most protected of these options. It's the only one that doesn't require you to trust someone else, the only one that lets you instantly hand off responsibility. All the others add risk and complexity that, if you were paranoid, you'd be worried about.
But what if I don't trust the person at the other end?
If I care about it, I'm not going to be handing it off.
Now, granted, there is also someone to trust at, say, ShareFile. But if I was really concerned I could encrypt the file before storing it there.
What's to stop the other side's IT from opening my mail when they weren't supposed to? Or their system not being secure and other users being able to see the e-mail? What's to stop the other side's management from looking at all e-mail sthat come through.
Granted, you would hope that people you are exchanging PHI with would not have this issue. But I am talking more about e-mail in general.
Yes, these are all user issues, but ones that can be more mitigated with the solution I suggest.
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@BRRABill said in How to Require TLS for Outbound SMTP Connections with MDaemon:
But what if I don't trust the person at the other end?
So what? There is no reason to care. Trust them, don't trust them. Doesn't matter. That's why encrypted email is important.
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@scottalanmiller said in How to Require TLS for Outbound SMTP Connections with MDaemon:
@BRRABill said in How to Require TLS for Outbound SMTP Connections with MDaemon:
I know you're supposed to trust the IT on the other side, but ... eh.
No, you are not. That's why encrypted email is so good, the moment the connection happens, you have zero need to trust their IT. It's not your problem in any way after that point. You've done your job to the demarcation point and are in the clear.
If you use a third party non-email service then and only then must you trust their IT (and it's IT of some random vendor that you likely don't know at all) because they now control your data that you remain responsible for. That's why they have to provide you with a BAA and you have to trust them to stick to it because they are a service acting on your behalf.
All of your stated concerns and paranoia would push you to encrypted email as the answer that best suits your desired outcomes.
It's not my problem if I all care about is a CYA to deliver the data securely.
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@BRRABill said in How to Require TLS for Outbound SMTP Connections with MDaemon:
If I care about it, I'm not going to be handing it off.
Now you've moved from IT into "recipient police" and are just off on a reckless personal vendetta. That's not appropriate for IT people to get involved in determining who should and should not be allowed to get PHI based on personal opinion.
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@BRRABill said in How to Require TLS for Outbound SMTP Connections with MDaemon:
Now, granted, there is also someone to trust at, say, ShareFile. But if I was really concerned I could encrypt the file before storing it there.
No, there are hundreds of people that you must trust by law are ShareFile. HIPAA makes you responsible to have to trust them. With encrypted email, wanting to trust someone is something you are deciding to care about personally and is not related to HIPAA or business requirements.
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@BRRABill said in How to Require TLS for Outbound SMTP Connections with MDaemon:
What's to stop the other side's IT from opening my mail when they weren't supposed to?
Nothing, and it isn't your concern.
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@scottalanmiller said in How to Require TLS for Outbound SMTP Connections with MDaemon:
@BRRABill said in How to Require TLS for Outbound SMTP Connections with MDaemon:
If I care about it, I'm not going to be handing it off.
Now you've moved from IT into "recipient police" and are just off on a reckless personal vendetta. That's not appropriate for IT people to get involved in determining who should and should not be allowed to get PHI based on personal opinion.
No no, I mean in things OTHER than PHI.
If you are talking two companies with BAAs in place, then sure, my job is done when the secure connection is made.
But if I am sending the proverbial ... body pics ... I don't want anyone's IT department to see them.
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@BRRABill said in How to Require TLS for Outbound SMTP Connections with MDaemon:
Or their system not being secure and other users being able to see the e-mail? What's to stop the other side's management from looking at all e-mail sthat come through.
Nothing... not of any concern to you. Your job is done and the package is handed off. Why do you keep asking about someone else's problems? What if their systems are compromised right now? Do you care that data that is not yours to protect is stolen?
Target had credit card data stolen. It wasn't yours nor your responsibility. Are you concerned about that? No, it's of no concern to you personally. You are choosing to grasp at responsibilities that are not yours to grab.
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@scottalanmiller said
reckless personal vendetta.
That sounds like a prequel to the Lethal Weapon franchise.
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@BRRABill said in How to Require TLS for Outbound SMTP Connections with MDaemon:
@scottalanmiller said in How to Require TLS for Outbound SMTP Connections with MDaemon:
@BRRABill said in How to Require TLS for Outbound SMTP Connections with MDaemon:
If I care about it, I'm not going to be handing it off.
Now you've moved from IT into "recipient police" and are just off on a reckless personal vendetta. That's not appropriate for IT people to get involved in determining who should and should not be allowed to get PHI based on personal opinion.
No no, I mean in things OTHER than PHI.
If you are talking two companies with BAAs in place, then sure, my job is done when the secure connection is made.
But if I am sending the proverbial ... body pics ... I don't want anyone's IT department to see them.
That's up to their doctors or recipients. It's not your job to ensure that it gets to the "right" recipient internal to their organization, right? What if the doctor posts it on the wall? Not your concern, right? Impossible for you to do anything about that.
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@BRRABill said in How to Require TLS for Outbound SMTP Connections with MDaemon:
Yes, these are all user issues, but ones that can be more mitigated with the solution I suggest.
Can be, sure. But GPG can do that, too. Both cases do something that is unnecessary, complicated, creates actual risk for no benefit, costs time and money, make things hard, encourage people to stop being secure, etc.
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@scottalanmiller said in How to Require TLS for Outbound SMTP Connections with MDaemon:
@BRRABill said in How to Require TLS for Outbound SMTP Connections with MDaemon:
Or their system not being secure and other users being able to see the e-mail? What's to stop the other side's management from looking at all e-mail sthat come through.
Nothing... not of any concern to you. Your job is done and the package is handed off. Why do you keep asking about someone else's problems? What if their systems are compromised right now? Do you care that data that is not yours to protect is stolen?
Target had credit card data stolen. It wasn't yours nor your responsibility. Are you concerned about that? No, it's of no concern to you personally. You are choosing to grasp at responsibilities that are not yours to grab.
Perhaps our posts are crossing in the wind.
I am talking about sensitive data I may want to e-mail.
Are you saying you trust e-mailing something more than using a web service such as ShareFile or even ODfB?
I am NOT talking about my business responsibility. I'm talking about keeping my sensitive info out of the hands of people who should not have it.
I agree with you that for HIPAA purposes, say, sending an e-mail over TLS, once the connection is made and the e-mail delivered, you are free of concern. That is unless you sent it to the wrong person by mistake. Oooops. Though you could say if I inadvertently sent the ShareFile login to the wrong person, the same thing would happen. But really, what are the risk numbers for both of those things happening?
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@BRRABill said in How to Require TLS for Outbound SMTP Connections with MDaemon:
I am talking about sensitive data I may want to e-mail.
So am I. Sensitive data that you need to get to another organization. Data you don't want to make so complicated to send that people work around your security.
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@BRRABill said in How to Require TLS for Outbound SMTP Connections with MDaemon:
Are you saying you trust e-mailing something more than using a web service such as ShareFile or even ODfB?
I can't state this enough.... yes. I trust email the most for getting sensitive data from one organization to another. (Within reason, encrypted drives, carried by armed military carriers on submarines, notwithstanding.)
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So if you had something personal you wanted to send...Not business related, just personal but highly sensitive...
You'd be OK just e-mailing?
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@BRRABill said in How to Require TLS for Outbound SMTP Connections with MDaemon:
I am NOT talking about my business responsibility. I'm talking about keeping my sensitive info out of the hands of people who should not have it.
Well stop. As an IT person you should never think that way. That's going to lead you down some terrible roads. If your goal is to have a super private conversation on a personal level that the government can't see, use Telegram with all the security cranked up. If we are talking IT in legal businesses, stick to email.
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@BRRABill said in How to Require TLS for Outbound SMTP Connections with MDaemon:
So if you had something personal you wanted to send...Not business related, just personal but highly sensitive...
You'd be OK just e-mailing?
Personally, yes. Because I don't deal in drugs, state secrets or anything that I need to bother hiding from the government I would absolutely email anything that I am okay having be caught by legal discovery warrants.
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Well, I can't say I agree with you, but I understand your side.
Be curious to hear what others have to say. Though I seem to recall much of this same sort of discussion in @Dashrender's thread.
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@BRRABill said in How to Require TLS for Outbound SMTP Connections with MDaemon:
I agree with you that for HIPAA purposes, say, sending an e-mail over TLS, once the connection is made and the e-mail delivered, you are free of concern. That is unless you sent it to the wrong person by mistake. Oooops. Though you could say if I inadvertently sent the ShareFile login to the wrong person, the same thing would happen. But really, what are the risk numbers for both of those things happening?
Risks are about the same - the risk of sending to wrong people is always there. With email, though, I suspect you could more easily automate some kinds of checks around that. In reality, that risk is decently high and people do it constantly regardless of the technology involved.
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@BRRABill said in How to Require TLS for Outbound SMTP Connections with MDaemon:
Well, I can't say I agree with you, but I understand your side.
Be curious to hear what others have to say. Though I seem to recall much of this same sort of discussion in @Dashrender's thread.
The bigger question is really - what actual concerns do you have? What risk do you think you are trying to avoid?
