Time to gut the network - thoughts?
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@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
It does. If the company uses marketing, you should be wary. So if they don't market, you don't need to be wary.
Yes exactly, you should be wary. Wary of advise is totally different than a company being bad. UNrelated. 100%
And I NEVER suggested that you stop being wary when they don't advertise.
Sure you never said it... but normals will hear an implied inverse, wither you mean it to be there or not. If you don't want them to have that inverse thinking, you need to explicitly say that.
Oh sure, but that is something that they make up themselves and didn't get from me. That's not my concern. If they don't want to screw themselves for their own purposes, they should read what is written instead of making things up. Intentionally altering my advice to something rather different is in no way my concern.
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@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
You're expecting people to take your advice without being questioned. The advice you are giving is to question people who give you advice.
Sure, but question it, don't twist it. I gave advice that only requires logic to know why it makes sense. It's clear that there can be no financial motivation behind it as I lose money or come out even on it as a consultant. And I don't advertise the advice. I'm not saying not to question it, but it's not being questioned, is it? Just twisted?
What part of what I said do you question? That advertising can make people emotionally susceptible to suggestion? That advisor will leverage that for personal gain? That we should be aware of these facts and prepare ourselves to look for this common scenario?
Which part are you questioning specifically?
Again, you've changed the argument so many times that we're somewhere different from where we were originally.
The original comment was "The people who are hiring the consultants don't know what they need...HOw do you question someone on recommending one brand if you don't know anything about it."
You still haven't answered that. You've just said "question them"
How?
What do you mean? Ask questions. Ask why the recommended it when it's popular. Ask what else they considered and why the big brand name won out. Ask if there is any financial connection to the company. Ask if there are skills tied to the brand name and not to other products. Ask if there is any reselling going on or kickbacks.
Question.
So you expect them to not be upfront and try to trick you from using marketing, but then expect them to tell the truth when you ask those questions? Those questions aren't going to help at all. If the person isn't up front from the beginning, they won't be up front when answering those questions. So, now where do you turn?
Yes, because you change from a grey area into a black and white one. You make them legally and morally obligated, you remove any social contract of sales, marketing or other. Nothing allows them to lie, ethically or legally. It also removes you having missed or them not disclosing a financial connection. You say that it won't help because if they are not up front... but you've totally changed the scenario. Not being "up front" is not disclosing voluntarily a connection. That's totally different than flat out lying. Absolutely different.
Is it perfect? Heck no. Is it a really, really big deal, yes.
I'm giving advice on how to improve things. There is no answer on how to be perfect. But we don't skip doing a good job just because we can't do a perfect one.
So the "consultant" says, "Oh we love Cisco. We use it for everything. No ties to them, we just love the product and does more than what we need, and it's easy to get help for it."
So now you either have to get a "second opinion" or try to do research on your own, which will most likely lead to the same results.
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@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
You're stopping short - again, don't just say - 'question any quote for an advertised thing' - instead say, 'question all quotes'
No, question quotes for an advertised thing more. It's about recognizing the danger case and raising alert.
If you raise the base alert from green to orange, orange becomes "no alert". It's just how humans work.
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@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
So the "consultant" says, "Oh we love Cisco. We use it for everything. No ties to them, we just love the product and does more than what we need, and it's easy to get help for it."
So now you either have to get a "second opinion" or try to do research on your own, which will most likely lead to the same results.
And what's wrong with that? If you have a vendor passionate about Cisco and Cisco will meet the needs, maybe it's the right choice for you. You questioned, you got a decent answer. Move on.
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This isn't about Cisco, remember even I think that Cisco is great a lot of the time. That it is a red flag in no way implies that it is not sometimes (or even often) the right choice. Only that it is the wrong choice often enough and in that pattern to that we should pay more attention and question what made it come up.
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@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
You're expecting people to take your advice without being questioned. The advice you are giving is to question people who give you advice.
Sure, but question it, don't twist it. I gave advice that only requires logic to know why it makes sense. It's clear that there can be no financial motivation behind it as I lose money or come out even on it as a consultant. And I don't advertise the advice. I'm not saying not to question it, but it's not being questioned, is it? Just twisted?
What part of what I said do you question? That advertising can make people emotionally susceptible to suggestion? That advisor will leverage that for personal gain? That we should be aware of these facts and prepare ourselves to look for this common scenario?
Which part are you questioning specifically?
Again, you've changed the argument so many times that we're somewhere different from where we were originally.
The original comment was "The people who are hiring the consultants don't know what they need...HOw do you question someone on recommending one brand if you don't know anything about it."
You still haven't answered that. You've just said "question them"
How?
What do you mean? Ask questions. Ask why the recommended it when it's popular. Ask what else they considered and why the big brand name won out. Ask if there is any financial connection to the company. Ask if there are skills tied to the brand name and not to other products. Ask if there is any reselling going on or kickbacks.
Question.
So you expect them to not be upfront and try to trick you from using marketing, but then expect them to tell the truth when you ask those questions? Those questions aren't going to help at all. If the person isn't up front from the beginning, they won't be up front when answering those questions. So, now where do you turn?
Yes, because you change from a grey area into a black and white one. You make them legally and morally obligated, you remove any social contract of sales, marketing or other. Nothing allows them to lie, ethically or legally. It also removes you having missed or them not disclosing a financial connection. You say that it won't help because if they are not up front... but you've totally changed the scenario. Not being "up front" is not disclosing voluntarily a connection. That's totally different than flat out lying. Absolutely different.
Is it perfect? Heck no. Is it a really, really big deal, yes.
I'm giving advice on how to improve things. There is no answer on how to be perfect. But we don't skip doing a good job just because we can't do a perfect one.
So the "consultant" says, "Oh we love Cisco. We use it for everything. No ties to them, we just love the product and does more than what we need, and it's easy to get help for it."
So now you either have to get a "second opinion" or try to do research on your own, which will most likely lead to the same results.
The obvious thing, if you really wanted to push the point, is to ask for a non-Cisco consultant or VAR to give you an alternative and ask why the Cisco solution is bad. Then compare notes. Maybe question the original vendor again. But I'm not suggesting that anyone need go that far, if the logic behind why Cisco was selected is reasonable, that is easily enough.
This isn't about finding every bad case or bad advice or bad motivation, it's about improving the process so that we find it more often than if we didn't.
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@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
t you've totally changed the scenario. Not being "up front" is not disclosing voluntarily a connection. That's totally different tha
the problem I have with this whole line is that you're paying someone because you trust their advice.. but at the same time, you're saying that you can't trust their advice, or at bare minimum you're saying trust but verify - and we all know where that leads.
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@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
the problem I have with this whole line is that you're paying someone because you trust their advice..
Are you? How many companies do you know trust the advice of their consultants? I know very few.
And of the few that do, often they are getting screwed when they trust blindly without ever asking critical questions. Many don't even have real consultants and are ignoring that fact.
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@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
. but at the same time, you're saying that you can't trust their advice, or at bare minimum you're saying trust but verify - and we all know where that leads.
As a consultant I get the "trust by verify" regularly and there are good ways to handle it. I try to be really good about "I recommend X and here is why (or here is Y, ha ha)." LIke "I've used this a lot and it's been great" or "There are alternatives but I know this product well." Or "this is just a great company and I like dealing with them."
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@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
the problem I have with this whole line is that you're paying someone because you trust their advice.. but at the same time, you're saying that you can't trust their advice, or at bare minimum you're saying trust but verify - and we all know where that leads.
The alternative is, of course, blind trust. If we are talking about your trusted advisor company of a decade that has never steered you wrong, you act very differently than if this is a first time consult, of course. But even long term advisors, how often do we find that someone has been running as a VAR for years and the customer "trusted" that they were getting good advice and really were getting screwed?
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@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
i really think you should drop the "if it's in an ad, you should question it" and change it to - "OK Mr/Mrs consultant, thanks for this recommendation, now tell me why and who it beat out"
That's great and fine and if you have a good process for questioning every recommendation, great. But even then, you should be aware of which cases are more risky and which are less.
We know to be wary if SAN is mentioned. Does that make SAN bad? Not in the least. But we know that the chances that we are being sold something we don't need just went up one hundred fold.
Now you're into specialized cases. And specialized cases are the exact opposite from @stacksofplates original question, where the shoeshop owner is trying to get some paid advice who knows nothing about computers. If the paid consultant suggested a SAN to him, he would have NO clue if that was good or bad.
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@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
You're expecting people to take your advice without being questioned. The advice you are giving is to question people who give you advice.
Sure, but question it, don't twist it. I gave advice that only requires logic to know why it makes sense. It's clear that there can be no financial motivation behind it as I lose money or come out even on it as a consultant. And I don't advertise the advice. I'm not saying not to question it, but it's not being questioned, is it? Just twisted?
What part of what I said do you question? That advertising can make people emotionally susceptible to suggestion? That advisor will leverage that for personal gain? That we should be aware of these facts and prepare ourselves to look for this common scenario?
Which part are you questioning specifically?
Again, you've changed the argument so many times that we're somewhere different from where we were originally.
The original comment was "The people who are hiring the consultants don't know what they need...HOw do you question someone on recommending one brand if you don't know anything about it."
You still haven't answered that. You've just said "question them"
How?
What do you mean? Ask questions. Ask why the recommended it when it's popular. Ask what else they considered and why the big brand name won out. Ask if there is any financial connection to the company. Ask if there are skills tied to the brand name and not to other products. Ask if there is any reselling going on or kickbacks.
Question.
So you expect them to not be upfront and try to trick you from using marketing, but then expect them to tell the truth when you ask those questions? Those questions aren't going to help at all. If the person isn't up front from the beginning, they won't be up front when answering those questions. So, now where do you turn?
Yes, because you change from a grey area into a black and white one. You make them legally and morally obligated, you remove any social contract of sales, marketing or other. Nothing allows them to lie, ethically or legally. It also removes you having missed or them not disclosing a financial connection. You say that it won't help because if they are not up front... but you've totally changed the scenario. Not being "up front" is not disclosing voluntarily a connection. That's totally different than flat out lying. Absolutely different.
Is it perfect? Heck no. Is it a really, really big deal, yes.
I'm giving advice on how to improve things. There is no answer on how to be perfect. But we don't skip doing a good job just because we can't do a perfect one.
So the "consultant" says, "Oh we love Cisco. We use it for everything. No ties to them, we just love the product and does more than what we need, and it's easy to get help for it."
So now you either have to get a "second opinion" or try to do research on your own, which will most likely lead to the same results.
The obvious thing, if you really wanted to push the point, is to ask for a non-Cisco consultant or VAR to give you an alternative and ask why the Cisco solution is bad. Then compare notes. Maybe question the original vendor again. But I'm not suggesting that anyone need go that far, if the logic behind why Cisco was selected is reasonable, that is easily enough.
This isn't about finding every bad case or bad advice or bad motivation, it's about improving the process so that we find it more often than if we didn't.
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@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
i really think you should drop the "if it's in an ad, you should question it" and change it to - "OK Mr/Mrs consultant, thanks for this recommendation, now tell me why and who it beat out"
That's great and fine and if you have a good process for questioning every recommendation, great. But even then, you should be aware of which cases are more risky and which are less.
We know to be wary if SAN is mentioned. Does that make SAN bad? Not in the least. But we know that the chances that we are being sold something we don't need just went up one hundred fold.
Now you're into specialized cases. And specialized cases are the exact opposite from @stacksofplates original question, where the shoeshop owner is trying to get some paid advice who knows nothing about computers. If the paid consultant suggested a SAN to him, he would have NO clue if that was good or bad.
Not really, SANs are so oversold that they are sold to non-technical people directly easily half the time. Not specialized at all.
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@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
You're expecting people to take your advice without being questioned. The advice you are giving is to question people who give you advice.
Sure, but question it, don't twist it. I gave advice that only requires logic to know why it makes sense. It's clear that there can be no financial motivation behind it as I lose money or come out even on it as a consultant. And I don't advertise the advice. I'm not saying not to question it, but it's not being questioned, is it? Just twisted?
What part of what I said do you question? That advertising can make people emotionally susceptible to suggestion? That advisor will leverage that for personal gain? That we should be aware of these facts and prepare ourselves to look for this common scenario?
Which part are you questioning specifically?
Again, you've changed the argument so many times that we're somewhere different from where we were originally.
The original comment was "The people who are hiring the consultants don't know what they need...HOw do you question someone on recommending one brand if you don't know anything about it."
You still haven't answered that. You've just said "question them"
How?
What do you mean? Ask questions. Ask why the recommended it when it's popular. Ask what else they considered and why the big brand name won out. Ask if there is any financial connection to the company. Ask if there are skills tied to the brand name and not to other products. Ask if there is any reselling going on or kickbacks.
Question.
So you expect them to not be upfront and try to trick you from using marketing, but then expect them to tell the truth when you ask those questions? Those questions aren't going to help at all. If the person isn't up front from the beginning, they won't be up front when answering those questions. So, now where do you turn?
Yes, because you change from a grey area into a black and white one. You make them legally and morally obligated, you remove any social contract of sales, marketing or other. Nothing allows them to lie, ethically or legally. It also removes you having missed or them not disclosing a financial connection. You say that it won't help because if they are not up front... but you've totally changed the scenario. Not being "up front" is not disclosing voluntarily a connection. That's totally different than flat out lying. Absolutely different.
Is it perfect? Heck no. Is it a really, really big deal, yes.
I'm giving advice on how to improve things. There is no answer on how to be perfect. But we don't skip doing a good job just because we can't do a perfect one.
So the "consultant" says, "Oh we love Cisco. We use it for everything. No ties to them, we just love the product and does more than what we need, and it's easy to get help for it."
So now you either have to get a "second opinion" or try to do research on your own, which will most likely lead to the same results.
The obvious thing, if you really wanted to push the point, is to ask for a non-Cisco consultant or VAR to give you an alternative and ask why the Cisco solution is bad. Then compare notes. Maybe question the original vendor again. But I'm not suggesting that anyone need go that far, if the logic behind why Cisco was selected is reasonable, that is easily enough.
This isn't about finding every bad case or bad advice or bad motivation, it's about improving the process so that we find it more often than if we didn't.
I didn't ask that you ask them for advice, that would be silly. You are asking them for the sales pitch.
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@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
It does. If the company uses marketing, you should be wary. So if they don't market, you don't need to be wary.
Yes exactly, you should be wary. Wary of advise is totally different than a company being bad. UNrelated. 100%
And I NEVER suggested that you stop being wary when they don't advertise.
Sure you never said it... but normals will hear an implied inverse, wither you mean it to be there or not. If you don't want them to have that inverse thinking, you need to explicitly say that.
Oh sure, but that is something that they make up themselves and didn't get from me. That's not my concern. If they don't want to screw themselves for their own purposes, they should read what is written instead of making things up. Intentionally altering my advice to something rather different is in no way my concern.
it is your concern, because the took the advice from you - you need to be more explicit your statements is what I'm saying.
either that or you're lumping @stacksofplates and I with the normals
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@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
It does. If the company uses marketing, you should be wary. So if they don't market, you don't need to be wary.
Yes exactly, you should be wary. Wary of advise is totally different than a company being bad. UNrelated. 100%
And I NEVER suggested that you stop being wary when they don't advertise.
Sure you never said it... but normals will hear an implied inverse, wither you mean it to be there or not. If you don't want them to have that inverse thinking, you need to explicitly say that.
Oh sure, but that is something that they make up themselves and didn't get from me. That's not my concern. If they don't want to screw themselves for their own purposes, they should read what is written instead of making things up. Intentionally altering my advice to something rather different is in no way my concern.
it is your concern, because the took the advice from you
NO they did not. I said nothing of the sort. You said that they made it up. Which means that they got it from themselves, not from me in any way.
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@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
either that or you're lumping @stacksofplates and I with the normals
In the case where you are saying that I said things that I did not say, if that lumps with normals, then that would be true. But that's like saying that I lump you with them because you put your pants on one leg at a time like them, too.
Just because normal people do something doesn't make it bad. But doing things because normal people do them, makes for a bad decision making process.
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Let's state this another way....
When crossing the road, be extra cautious when crossing against a green light as traffic is less likely to be looking for you, stopped or aware of you in the crossing.
This never implies...
When the light is red, cross the street without looking.
But you are saying that if I gave the first set of advice that normal people would hear it as the second.
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@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
the problem I have with this whole line is that you're paying someone because you trust their advice..
Are you? How many companies do you know trust the advice of their consultants? I know very few.
And of the few that do, often they are getting screwed when they trust blindly without ever asking critical questions. Many don't even have real consultants and are ignoring that fact.
See.. here you go changing the baseline again - before it was - question if you have seen an ad... and now it's - you're getting screwed if you trust blindly without ever asking a critical question...
You can't have it both ways.
You're giving general advice here, Scott. The advice should not be - be critical if you get suggested somethign you've seen an ad for.
instead your advice should be - be critical, 100% of the time... ask them why that choice was made. Period.. this to me seems like the real advice you are tying to make.
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@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
You're expecting people to take your advice without being questioned. The advice you are giving is to question people who give you advice.
Sure, but question it, don't twist it. I gave advice that only requires logic to know why it makes sense. It's clear that there can be no financial motivation behind it as I lose money or come out even on it as a consultant. And I don't advertise the advice. I'm not saying not to question it, but it's not being questioned, is it? Just twisted?
What part of what I said do you question? That advertising can make people emotionally susceptible to suggestion? That advisor will leverage that for personal gain? That we should be aware of these facts and prepare ourselves to look for this common scenario?
Which part are you questioning specifically?
Again, you've changed the argument so many times that we're somewhere different from where we were originally.
The original comment was "The people who are hiring the consultants don't know what they need...HOw do you question someone on recommending one brand if you don't know anything about it."
You still haven't answered that. You've just said "question them"
How?
What do you mean? Ask questions. Ask why the recommended it when it's popular. Ask what else they considered and why the big brand name won out. Ask if there is any financial connection to the company. Ask if there are skills tied to the brand name and not to other products. Ask if there is any reselling going on or kickbacks.
Question.
So you expect them to not be upfront and try to trick you from using marketing, but then expect them to tell the truth when you ask those questions? Those questions aren't going to help at all. If the person isn't up front from the beginning, they won't be up front when answering those questions. So, now where do you turn?
Yes, because you change from a grey area into a black and white one. You make them legally and morally obligated, you remove any social contract of sales, marketing or other. Nothing allows them to lie, ethically or legally. It also removes you having missed or them not disclosing a financial connection. You say that it won't help because if they are not up front... but you've totally changed the scenario. Not being "up front" is not disclosing voluntarily a connection. That's totally different than flat out lying. Absolutely different.
Is it perfect? Heck no. Is it a really, really big deal, yes.
I'm giving advice on how to improve things. There is no answer on how to be perfect. But we don't skip doing a good job just because we can't do a perfect one.
So the "consultant" says, "Oh we love Cisco. We use it for everything. No ties to them, we just love the product and does more than what we need, and it's easy to get help for it."
So now you either have to get a "second opinion" or try to do research on your own, which will most likely lead to the same results.
The obvious thing, if you really wanted to push the point, is to ask for a non-Cisco consultant or VAR to give you an alternative and ask why the Cisco solution is bad. Then compare notes. Maybe question the original vendor again. But I'm not suggesting that anyone need go that far, if the logic behind why Cisco was selected is reasonable, that is easily enough.
This isn't about finding every bad case or bad advice or bad motivation, it's about improving the process so that we find it more often than if we didn't.
I didn't ask that you ask them for advice, that would be silly. You are asking them for the sales pitch.
Ah yes, so you're asking them for the exact thing you're supposed to be wary of.
