Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?
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@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Breffni-Potter said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
What further discussion is there to this?
This was at 400 posts at 5pm when I left the office, it's now 11pm and what has been achieved? Has any progress been made?
No idea, I'm not up to post 400 yet.
531 posts on a thread...most of it about a topic which is going round and round in circles
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@Breffni-Potter said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Breffni-Potter said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
What further discussion is there to this?
This was at 400 posts at 5pm when I left the office, it's now 11pm and what has been achieved? Has any progress been made?
No idea, I'm not up to post 400 yet.
531 posts on a thread...most of it about a topic which is going round and round in circles
SLowly catching up. MOst things go in circles for a bit until we figure out where people are mis communicating. Round and round is a solution pattern.
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@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
So if a 3 person non-profit church comes in and wants a $5K server. No questions asked you just sell it to them? Not me. Because I know they do not know what they need. They know the term server, but have no idea what it means, and what it is for. And how for 1/100th or less of the cost they can have a much better solution.
If they didn't come to you for advice and you refuse to sell them what they need, that's kinda weird, right? Hi, we want to buy something from your "store". But you say "sorry, I don't agree with your desires, you can only buy what I think is right for you."
But they DO come for advice. That is what I am saying. Am I not getting that across properly?
They don't come asking specifically for a server. The think they might need one, and what do I think?
I still cannot get past you don't question what your customers really need. And yes, I do know what they need.
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@scottalanmiller said
This is totally wrong. If you go into a shoe store and say you want a shoe it's not unethical for them to sell it to you. It's in no way, ever, the job of a salesman to care if something is good or bad for you, or the "right fit." They have an ethical responsibility to sell, there is zero ethical responsibility to you. Zero. In fact, refusing to sell to you based on their own opinions is very questionable certainly to their employer but ultimately to you as well.
I buy my shoes from a specialized shoe store. (Well, it's a running store.) I walk in, and we go over all the things about my feet. And he recommends a particular shoe. And I've been going back because he sells me the best shoes I've ever been sold for my feet.
Now, I did NOT go in and say "SELL ME SHOE ABC". I went in and said "hey I have these issues with my feet, what do you recommend?"
And I went to him because lots of people recommended him because they had the same experiences.
And if he just sells me some random shoe, he knows I'll be back complaining about it, so why shouldn't he try to figure out what I need.
This happens all the time. In more than just shoe stores.
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@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
I can't help but think in the real world case that I AM doing some level of consulting, AND some level of VARing. They need me to research and discover their needs and help them navigate options, but at the same time I already know they are going to end up buying something like a NAS one way or the other.
This statement is a great example of how the system turns you into a VAR. How does "going to buy a NAS" ever come up as a common, expected result? And how does any single NAS vendor come up as the single, almost always the answer? You have two layers of "this isn't how consulting would work" at least here. Because if doing real consulting... NAS would be not uncommon, but anything but expected. And that a single NAS vendor would be the right answer would also not be very common. Maybe one is 50% of the time, maybe. But not even that, in my experience.
Only a VAR thinks in terms of "the answer is nearly always the same." The answer only looks that way when you approach it from a VAR perspective. A consultant wouldn't see the world in cookie cutters. It's the affiliate programs that create the illusion of one size fits all. And it is the VAR emotions that make it seem reasonable to think that the consulting is a farce and that the same basic answer always results.
If you approach this as a consultant without the sales angle, you quickly see those things evaporate. There is no means of having one main solution.
I don't buy this. Is O365 "uncommon" in their market space? Is Google Docs an uncommon solution? Are cloud backups and antivirus solutions uncommon when they want central management?
Is AWS the uncommon choice for building a cluster of app servers? Is Azure uncommon when they want offsite management of AD?Of course many solutions can be thought of as "common". Is Dell not common when a server is needed? In what situations would Dell not even be among the choices for a server purchase?
If you need free virtualization, is Xen or Hyper-V uncommon?
Why must one be a VAR before they can have some favorite tools in the toolbox? Or pull out some "common" options when a particular need comes up?
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@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
But no one is defining it that way. Maybe in your mind that is what VAR means, but not to anyone else. VAR means you do sales and add services.
That seems like a perfectly reasonable conclusion. The problem is now that VAR is established, many many negative words were introduced to describe them.
Their ONLY job is "selling as much as possible."
They are "beholden" to the vendors.
The vendors are their "masters."
Their opinions are wholly "biased", if not totally "corrupted."
They cannot ethically/morally/objectively do any "consulting" when possible reselling is on the table.I'm fine being called a generalist "services" provider, a VAR who provides services, break/fix, comes up with solutions and has some recommended affiliate/partner products in my toolbox should they be needed.
What I reject is being told I am essentially as good as a pushy vacuum salesmen, whose only job is selling for the man and so I can't be trusted for the best advice. Or that I've become a car lot and my whole job is selling the most expensive car. -
@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Just don't do the reselling portion Like you said, it's trivial money, no skin off your back. So just skip it, problem solved.
Well yes, trivial. Like maybe the tune of $400 in the last few years? Thus I've only thought of it as bonus money, pocket money, lunch money, coffee money. Not something that changes my entire business model, focus, and how I go about working for people.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
I can't respond any more, I've got too much to do today! Thanks for all the perspectives, don't think I've ignored them, it definitely changes how I'm going to structure my offerings and deal with potential partnerships/reseller accounts.
I may think of myself as a saint, but if you're telling me that the general IT industry is saturated with such "corruption", I will have to be very careful indeed not to fall in the trap.I'm 100 posts behind, lol. Even if you were ignoring the posts, I don't think I'd know for another day.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Really gentlemen, we should have reached "agree to disagree" about 100 posts ago! LOL But I can't get onboard will illogic, false dichotomies, false motives, and the low opinions of mankind as expressed. Many of those thoughts are just opinions, not facts.
The issues are not those, though. So if you disagree, it's disagreeing with something other than what we are saying.
The facts are that adding in a payment for being a seller's agent makes an inappropriate conflict of interest that must be disclosed. No amount of the stuff you mention is a factor. It's simply inappropriate. Think it doesn't affect you, that's fine, but that doesn't apply. It is what it is.
As far as the low opinion of mankind, you need to see the stuff that VARs do under the guise of consultants in the real world. It's not 50% of the time, its 99.9% of the time that it is insanely, blatantly obvious that the client was scammed. And in a way that only makes sense if there was a sales bias added in because it is the only way that the vendor would benefit from running the scam (and most admit when caught that they do this.) It's not a low opinion of humanity, it's basic observation of the market.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Just don't do the reselling portion Like you said, it's trivial money, no skin off your back. So just skip it, problem solved.
Well yes, trivial. Like maybe the tune of $400 in the last few years? Thus I've only thought of it as bonus money, pocket money, lunch money, coffee money. Not something that changes my entire business model, focus, and how I go about working for people.
Honestly, for that, I wouldn't bother to be thrown into this pit.
Not that $400 is nothing, but to open this kind of can of worms...
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
I just don't see it as a paradox at all. The client has all priority. They will decide if my recommendations are good. They will decide if we proceed. They will decide if they want me to do the work. They will decide which option to go with. They will decide if it's all in budget. They will decide to use any affiliate links for purchases, should I provide any or have any to begin with. There is no "relationship" to an affiliate that must be maintained, no quotas, no contracts, no obligations. That is only bonus money IF the product is selected, and IF the client buys "through me".
Priority isn't enough, though. Sure, as long as they pay more, they get more priority. But you have a blend from two masters. The customer might pay $10, but the vendor pays another $5 if what the customer gets happens to be what the vendor wants. None of the things that you mention here are factors. The payment from the vendor is non-zero. That the customer doesn't always chose them... not a factor. The question is do they ever choose them.
You are always adding in absolutes to make it sound one way and always ignore that we say it can't be absolutes. You demand that it isn't "always" but that hides that we are talking about "ever". You keep not addressing that. Every time you say "always" it seems like you are acknowledging and avoiding the issue.
The issues with the above are that the customer shouldn't be primary, the should be sole. The vendor influence need not be always, just ever.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
It's no more a paradox than suggesting, as a father, that having 2 kids and a wife is a paradox, cause how can I possibly love one equally to the other? Or work for the good of one without also hurting the other? How can I be a good husband without becoming a bad father? Or be a good father without becoming a bad husband! Oh the humanity!
But you don't take payment from one of them with the promise of representing them against the interests of the others, you don't make a contractual bond to be a "team" against the others. Your kids are not out to get each other and you are not the representative of one, not the other, in that situation. This is a nonsensical comparison to the situation, like the sidewalk one. I feel like you are not understanding your relationship and obligations and ethical requirements of being a consultant - of being hired to be the buyer's agent. Not because of the affiliate thing, but because of your analogies. The way that your analogies work, I feel like you aren't sensing what being a consultant means.
If you told this analogy to your customer, that just hired you to be their representative, to be bonded to them and be on their team they would lose their sh1t. Because it suggests that you feel that the customer is like your kid (or wife) and that the vendor that you are affiliated with is like your wife (or kid.) Your analogy paints a picture of being beholden, involved with and biased towards the vendor far, far beyond the degree that we were worried about here. I'm not saying that you would be, I'm saying that in your mind the analogies that you create suggest far more problems than we are suggesting from the monetary bias problem.
It's Freudian, right? Why does your mind analogue the vendor to such a tight relationship?
If making this comparison in an analogy like this, I would have made it more like this....
The client is your child (although never tell clients that you think of them like children) and you are on a team, looking out for each other, and the vendor is another kid from across town that your kid wants to buy a trading card from. You don't want to hurt or mistreat the other kid or not treat them fairly, but you aren't there to help them out, either. You are there to make sure that your kid doesn't get jumped by bullies, lost on the way, get his money stolen, not get the trading card he was promised, not get the price he was told it would be, that the kid from across town is really another kid and not some Internet stalker, etc. Your kid looks for you to be guidance and protection against the evils and dangers in the world. That's your relationship as a consultant.
But in your analogy, the vendor is another person that you care about and want to please equally with your customer. And that analogy explains why the affiliate program is bad, it elevated, in your analogy at least, your vendor relationship up to the same as that as your customer. So this analogy from you, I feel, is the best possible way to see why the program doesn't work.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
A car salesman cannot take all customers to the cheapest car and then offer it at cost. They would be out of work in a couple days. But doing good work for clients takes place with or without affiliates. The objective is still doing good work, not selling the highest priced car.
But they can if they double dip and get paid to make the connection. Double dipping creates a lot of opportunities for making money depending on the situation. Customer not paying well... sell them something that isn't best for them but pays you well. Customer paying really well but only if they don't spend much on the solution... sell them something with no overhead.
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@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
The facts are that adding in a payment for being a seller's agent makes an inappropriate conflict of interest that must be disclosed.
I think of it more like a tip or bonus.
A barista who puts out a tip jar doesn't become a slave of the coffee shop just because sometimes during their work, some change is dropped in. -
@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Just don't do the reselling portion Like you said, it's trivial money, no skin off your back. So just skip it, problem solved.
Well yes, trivial. Like maybe the tune of $400 in the last few years? Thus I've only thought of it as bonus money, pocket money, lunch money, coffee money. Not something that changes my entire business model, focus, and how I go about working for people.
Honestly, for that, I wouldn't bother to be thrown into this pit.
Not that $400 is nothing, but to open this kind of can of worms...
I never thought it was this kind of can of worms, not at all. But then again, I never really tried to call myself a pure consultant. I've always been break/fix and general servicing.
It's obvious people already in IT have all these strong thoughts on the subject, but I've never met a normal person outside of tech, even small business owners, who are this pedantic about things. I've never had somebody flip their shat after me offering them an affiliate link as if I've just totally screwed over their entire job.
I am interested in actual case studies where this has happened. I get that sometimes a company can be oversold by a VAR, ok granted. But how about a company that was completely screwed over due to partner vendor bias?
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Just don't do the reselling portion Like you said, it's trivial money, no skin off your back. So just skip it, problem solved.
Well yes, trivial. Like maybe the tune of $400 in the last few years? Thus I've only thought of it as bonus money, pocket money, lunch money, coffee money. Not something that changes my entire business model, focus, and how I go about working for people.
Honestly, for that, I wouldn't bother to be thrown into this pit.
Not that $400 is nothing, but to open this kind of can of worms...
I never thought it was this kind of can of worms, not at all. But then again, I never really tried to call myself a pure consultant. I've always been break/fix and general servicing.
It's obvious people already in IT have all these strong thoughts on the subject, but I've never met a normal person outside of tech, even small business owners, who are this pedantic about things. I've never had somebody flip their shat after me offering them an affiliate link as if I've just totally screwed over their entire job.
I am interested in actual case studies where this has happened. I get that sometimes a company can be oversold by a VAR, ok granted. But how about a company that was completely screwed over due to partner vendor bias?
I haven't either, but I certainly understand where @scottalanmiller and others are coming from, and can definitely understand the conflict of interests.
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@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
The question is do they ever choose them.
That's the client's choice. It doesn't change anything.
I suppose what you're saying is does the bias ever affect my work, even once.
So far, no, cause it's pennies and dimes.
Again, I've thought of affiliates in two ways up till now.
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Tip money that is just a happy bonus should an affiliate product be used for a job and bought through me. Never high dollar amounts, never a question of priorities or which "master" is really in control.
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A potential income source to offset normal fees. This point I am definitely re-evaluating now. Partnerships are a simple way to offset costs and allow one to charge less, thus undercutting competition. No matter how good I think I am, I always have to compete with the 14 year old who builds Wordpress sites on Craigslist for $50 dollars.
The cheapest website I built was a blog for $250, but the old dude wasn't hip to tech and sucked hours and hours of my time in email and phone calls, even having me come to his house, twice, for one-on-one training on how to use WP, all for $250. I wrote how-to documents fully with screenshots and even recorded a screencast and uploaded to Youtube to help explain further.
You can bet that after the fact, earning $50 extra bucks on affiliate hosting felt well justified. And this was a residential client, so bias doesn't really matter, one host is about as good as another when we're talking $6 bucks a month.
If I take away even the potential for $50, now I have to charge $300 or $500 for the same person, and for what? Because I won't be "biased" for the webhost I will STILL recommend anyway?Regardless, I think the points have been made, though I obviously don't agree with many other sentiments, especially opinion-based assumptions about ethics and such.
I'm tempted to just deleted this thread, as it went way off topic and is just a brawl. Not sure it's useful to anybody and I don't want any ill feelings going around.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
It's obvious people already in IT have all these strong thoughts on the subject, but I've never met a normal person outside of tech, even small business owners, who are this pedantic about things. I've never had somebody flip their shat after me offering them an affiliate link as if I've just totally screwed over their entire job.
Nor has a customer ever just paid you $500 for a consulting job then turn around and find out that Dell (which was in your consulting offerings) was paying you $50 because the customer bought the Dell, either.
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@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
It's obvious people already in IT have all these strong thoughts on the subject, but I've never met a normal person outside of tech, even small business owners, who are this pedantic about things. I've never had somebody flip their shat after me offering them an affiliate link as if I've just totally screwed over their entire job.
Nor has a customer ever just paid you $500 for a consulting job then turn around and find out that Dell (which was in your consulting offerings) was paying you $50 because the customer bought the Dell, either.
You're assuming they would even care if it did happen.
Do you care if you buy something on ebay and find out they were just reselling it from Amazon with a $2 markup? Or vice versa from ebay to Amazon?
Do you care if you hire a mobile car mechanic and they install a starter from ABC company that they get a kickback for ABC starters? OMG I thought my mechanic was going to have pure, unbiased opinions about starters! Na, probably not, probably they install all their starters from ABC because they've found over the years they have the least amount of problems with them, they last a long time, have good warranties, etc.People are so hung up on whether a commission utterly destroys the quality of work, when they should be asking is, was the work performed well and the equipment quality and the right choice.
Does it matter if Dell paid the tech? Or does it matter if Dell was a good choice and works? Would you rather prefer HP without the commission? Since that has everything to do with quality of solution apparently.
You're not asking if Dell was, in fact, the best choice. You're just implying that because of a commission, Dell was more likely a skewed and thus wrong choice. Commissions don't automatically make the product a wrong choice.But the answer is no, no client "learns" I was paid, because if they buy anything "through me" that is explained at the time I offer them a link. Secondly, I didn't know Dell paid anybody anything, do they have an affiliate program? [[opens search engine....]]
Should we be completely hung up on commissions? Or does anybody care about what actually matters, like quality of work and equipment, which perfectly fulfills the needs, and is performed above and beyond the client's expectations? Maybe that should matter more. It does to me anyway, over and above some religious sense of IT piety and purity.
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@guyinpv said
Do you care if you buy something on ebay and find out they were just reselling it from Amazon with a $2 markup? Or vice versa from ebay to Amazon?
I do believe the response to this is going to be...
"Yes, but the seller on eBay wasn't recommending you buy that. You are making recommendations based on the $2 markup."
