Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
"sales pays to anti-consult" <--- Really? By offering an affiliate/commission system, the product automatically becomes the worst choice in all scenarios? It's very possible that the product BOTH fills the need perfectly, AND offers commission. Another non-sequitur.
Absolutely, it just means that the consulting is corrupted. It says nothing about the solution. You are making an implication that was not said.
But why would someone pay for fake consulting when they could have gotten straight sales for free?
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
My opinion is that in most cases, especially independents like me, the small affiliates I get from my favorite products are a simple value add, or bonus, for me. I would be recommending the product anyway.
But this doesn't hold up in the real world. I see no problem from people more than this. We routinely see what is being recommended to people and get them to admit that they got false consulting from a sales people based on the obviousy scamming recommendations. You can say that you don't think that this happens, but it's so common that to me, it sounds like you've never met people in IT. This is so insanely common that almost nothing else exists from my experience. Many companies are to the point that they don't even know what actual consulting looks like because this is so common and so severe and so corrupt.
Maybe you feel that everyone is like you and able to 100% ignore the fact that you get money. But this is not even slightly mirrored in the real world. To the point that I don't even know where you could find an example of it.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
This entire things basically seems to come down to whether human natural greed always wins over simple human honesty and sincerity.
It's not that simple. If you hide the fact that you are getting paid, you are not in the realm of honest. If you disclose the fact that you are getting paid, then your customers know that you are sales, not consulting, and you can be honest and still do the sales. I NEVER suggest that sales is dishonest, ever. That's something that people, having an emotional negative reaction. to sales people inject. But I never imply that. Sales is generally very honest. It is customers lying to themselves in the hopes of taking advantage of someone, but really knowing that they are taking advantage of themselves.
There is no greed vs. honesty in this scenario (until you don't tell people that you are doing sales, then it is obviously lying.) This is the false dichotomy here, believing that honesty and greed are opposing forces here. It's just not the case.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Do you sell it for the commission, or do you sell it anyway and a commission is just a bonus?
I don't see any problem with a little earned commission on selling things you already promote anyway. Just as long as those little commission benefits don't cloud your judgement about clients' needs.
How can it not?
And while you might not not allow it to cloud your judgement, as someone hiring you, I can't know that.
If my goal is to hire you as a consultant looking for the best option for me, it's in my best interest for you to only be getting paid by me and no one else (at least in relation to the products/project that I want your consultant opinion on).
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
"you only mix the two when you intend to scam the customer" <--- Seems like another non-sequitur. How is it you can sell Synology to hundreds of clients with good success, but if you change and now receive a small commission, it becomes scamming? The very same customers would have been scammed rather than helped, by the inclusion of a commission?
Well for one, selling isn't applicable. Hopefully you mean recommending.
Second, that it's been "sold" a lot is irrelevant to the conversation, so I feel like the desire for sales commissions is already clouding your thought process. What does "it worked for other people" have to do with the situation? What we are concerned about is if it is the right tool for the next customer, not that it was the right tool for the past customers.
So the issue of being paid to push one product instead of another remains the convoluted, unethical consulting practice that it always did. I just don't see how having recommended it in the past places any significant role when our goal as consultants is to determine the right products, approaches and fits for our customers, not to tell them "what worked for someone else that is different." It's just not meaningful to this discussion.
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@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Do you sell it for the commission, or do you sell it anyway and a commission is just a bonus?
I don't see any problem with a little earned commission on selling things you already promote anyway. Just as long as those little commission benefits don't cloud your judgement about clients' needs.
How can it not?
And while you might not not allow it to cloud your judgement, as someone hiring you, I can't know that.
If my goal is to hire you as a consultant looking for the best option for me, it's in my best interest for you to only be getting paid by me and no one else (at least in relation to the products/project that I want your consultant opinion on).
Likewise, that partner is paying you to sell their product, rather than to listen to my needs. You cannot serve two masters. There is no way to "do right" by both, you have to pick. And one pays more than the other, and more consistently.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Lastly, commissions are not the only thing can cloud someone's view. If the client is cheap and wants as fast as possible, you might be tempted to recommend products you are most familiar with and can work quickly with.
I feel like you've never read my works on this. I cover this a lot.
http://www.smbitjournal.com/2016/05/understanding-bias/
All consulting is about bias. The question is, is it good bias that benefits the customer or is it bad bias where you are not helping the customer. Are you a buyer's agent or a seller's agent?
To put this into perspective, what you are suggesting is something that consultants like @JaredBusch and I avoid due to our professional ethics. We don't feel that what you are proposing is something that we are allowed to do, regardless of corporate policies (which for both of us mirror that ruling.) But in other realms, like real estate, what you feel is acceptable isn't just considered unethical, but is actually illegal. That's the degree to which this is frowned upon. Can you legally do it in IT? Yes, as long as you are disclosing that you are being offered money to act against the potential interests of the customer. But it's all on your shoulders to make it ethical.
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Some things that happen when you take commission....
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You say that you sold lots of Synology in the past.... okay, but that only says that you got people to buy that. It doesn't tell us that it was good for them. Maybe it was, but let's continue...
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New customer needs storage. If you earn 10% on Synology, will that influence you to sell them Synology over ReadyNAS, Drobo, Dell, HPE, Exablox, etc.? If not, how? You don't feel that money would influence you to do things to make it look better, like learning it more, having part numbers at the ready, not looking as hard at alternatives, etc.? If you don't care about money, why are you so adamant about getting that money?
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What if the customer doesn't need storage at all, but could use it? Would you not be influenced to sell Synology even if the customer might not need anything at all?
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If you are making money from selling Synology, you've only suggested that it would not influence you are which vendor to use. But what about influencing you to sell larger units, more features, from vendors based on commission rates rather than customer value, units designed to lock customers in, etc.?
Influence happens in a lot of ways, not just one vendor vs. another.
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@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@IRJ said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
You cannot by 100 unbiased if you get paid to sell software. There is NO way, you wont want to pad your pockets.
And if you truly didn't care about the money, why bother taking the money when you'd be just as happy not getting it? The very fact that you would accept the sales commission means you are biased because of it.
Because like I said, it's just a bonus. It's just THERE. It's FREE.
I'm going to recommend, say InMotion Hosting for most small business website needs. It's a great host, great features, great price. Rarely would I care to recommend GoDaddy or HostGator, they literally have nothing to offer. And only a larger business would need to move to VPS or dedicated box (InMotion has those too anyway).
So if I already recommend InMotion in 90% of cases because their various packages fill almost all needs, why would signing up for their free, available, affiliate program still be bad? It's just THERE. It's a bonus.
It doesn't mean I never try out other hosts. I've got DO, VULTR, and HostGator actively. I also use Softlayer, and am testing UpCloud and AWS currently. I've also got Azure and RamNode on the horizon.
To NOT sign up for the free affiliate program seems to me like throwing away money for some sense of business or moral purity. I can understand if that is a top concern. I don't know if it's really all that concerting for clients one way or the other.
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Let's put it another way... if you won't be influenced by the commissions, why bother having this conversation? I feel that this conversation alone is what you need to know. You are relatively passionate about getting the commission. If you truly won't be biased, then just don't do the sales. You only want to do the sales if you will be biased, right? The two go together.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Because like I said, it's just a bonus. It's just THERE. It's FREE.
That's not enough. If you would truly not be biased, you'd not care at all about that.
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@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Do you sell it for the commission, or do you sell it anyway and a commission is just a bonus?
I don't see any problem with a little earned commission on selling things you already promote anyway. Just as long as those little commission benefits don't cloud your judgement about clients' needs.
How can it not?
And while you might not not allow it to cloud your judgement, as someone hiring you, I can't know that.
If my goal is to hire you as a consultant looking for the best option for me, it's in my best interest for you to only be getting paid by me and no one else (at least in relation to the products/project that I want your consultant opinion on).
Many shops are not shy at all about advertising their loyalties. "Certified HP Servers!" "Dell certified reseller!" "Apple certified!" "Your local source for bla bla bla!"
I see these all the time. Their loyalties don't affect me. If I want a server and they say they only do Dells, that seems just as limiting, or just as immoral as the shop who actually offers 5 vendors but two of them have a commission program. What's the difference? Both of them have their loyalties and clouded offerings.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
So if I already recommend InMotion in 90% of cases because their various packages fill almost all needs, why would signing up for their free, available, affiliate program still be bad? It's just THERE. It's a bonus.
It doesn't mean I never try out other hosts. I've got DO, VULTR, and HostGator actively. I also use Softlayer, and am testing UpCloud and AWS currently. I've also got Azure and RamNode on the horizon.
I understand what you are saying and I understand how very specific cases can have tiny, tiny value propositions that can make sense. We do this with antivirus and we simply disclose the bias to customers so that they understand what our bias is and they can learn what we earn if they want. It's trivial, it's "free" like you said, and we just disclose it. If a customer wants us to look at other solutions we happily will, if they don't we just use Webroot. They know that, we know that, we disclose it... no unethical behaviour.
You can do the same thing. Make it clear that you are a reseller. You are NOT likely to be a consultant within the hosting space, just a reseller. But as long as they are okay with that, nothing wrong with that. Just don't hide it. Let them decide if they care about that or not.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Many shops are not shy at all about advertising their loyalties. "Certified HP Servers!" "Dell certified reseller!" "Apple certified!" "Your local source for bla bla bla!"
I see these all the time.
Yes, and they are called VARs and have no place in the consulting space.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
If I want a server and they say they only do Dells, that seems just as limiting, or just as immoral as the shop who actually offers 5 vendors but two of them have a commission program. What's the difference? Both of them have their loyalties and clouded offerings.
The difference is are you looking or a VAR or you are looking for a consultant. You go to a VAR for one service, a consultant for a different one. One works FOR you, one works FOR the vendor. One is your buyer's agent, the other is their seller's agent. One is on your team, one is on the opposing team.
As a consultant, WE use VARs and keep them from interacting with clients because it is our job to keep them from getting direct access and convincing the client of things that don't make sense.
For example, as a Dell consultant we help customers determine if they need a server, what configuration, what storage, what support, etc. We look at the customer's needs and help them find what fits those needs.
A Dell VAR doesn't care about needs, they care about budget. They sell the customer what they can afford (that probably also meets their needs) regardless of it if is a best fit, needed at all, or a good option. They work on what they can get the customer to buy, rather than telling the customer what is best for their business.
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@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
"sales pays to anti-consult" <--- Really? By offering an affiliate/commission system, the product automatically becomes the worst choice in all scenarios? It's very possible that the product BOTH fills the need perfectly, AND offers commission. Another non-sequitur.
Absolutely, it just means that the consulting is corrupted. It says nothing about the solution. You are making an implication that was not said.
But why would someone pay for fake consulting when they could have gotten straight sales for free?
This doesn't answer it.
If a particular product fits a particular need perfectly, the inclusion (or not) of an affiliate bonus changes nothing whatsoever. The best solution is the best solution. -
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
To NOT sign up for the free affiliate program seems to me like throwing away money for some sense of business or moral purity. I can understand if that is a top concern. I don't know if it's really all that concerting for clients one way or the other.
On no, absolutely, TONS of customers actively want you to do that. Not the CEOs or owners, mind you, but the IT guy looking to get something for nothing or to hide the fact that he's running a little scam of his own. It's often desired. It's normally someone on the customer side looking to do something a bit grey and looking for a business that will help him out, wink wink nudge nudge.
If you are driving by money and willing to sacrifice some moral purity, absolutely, VARs make the money. And you can tell those customers whatever you want, they are suckers anyway. But you can't tell other consultants that you are a consultant and not a VAR, we all know how it works. This is how the vast majority of MSPs work, they are wolves in sheep's clothing, but the customers often figure this out and don't care because... well the SMB market isn't very smart and are easily to pull the wool over (wolf, sheep, metaphors...)
It's all what you are wanting to do. We aren't saying that you can't. What we are saying is that one action compromises the other.
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@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
My opinion is that in most cases, especially independents like me, the small affiliates I get from my favorite products are a simple value add, or bonus, for me. I would be recommending the product anyway.
Maybe you feel that everyone is like you and able to 100% ignore the fact that you get money. But this is not even slightly mirrored in the real world. To the point that I don't even know where you could find an example of it.
Small time folk like me? I was raised with a good Christian work ethic. I'm not out to give anybody bad advice or trick people. If anything I'm guilty of charging too little, rounding down, and not adding any time for emails, phone calls, driving, or my own research into subjects.
I'm sorry that these are the only sorts of people you've rubbed shoulders with! Perhaps you've been to too many IT tech conventions!!
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
"sales pays to anti-consult" <--- Really? By offering an affiliate/commission system, the product automatically becomes the worst choice in all scenarios? It's very possible that the product BOTH fills the need perfectly, AND offers commission. Another non-sequitur.
Absolutely, it just means that the consulting is corrupted. It says nothing about the solution. You are making an implication that was not said.
But why would someone pay for fake consulting when they could have gotten straight sales for free?
This doesn't answer it.
If a particular product fits a particular need perfectly, the inclusion (or not) of an affiliate bonus changes nothing whatsoever. The best solution is the best solution.That's not how that works, you are applying the logic after the fact. You are asking to get paid to provide guidance but are not providing that guidance and instead just "hoping" that in any particular example case that the sales approach just happens to match the need. That's not at all the same thing.
You say "in a particular case", but no product does that 100% of the time, not even 50% of the time. So sure, every now and then a customer gets a good deal by chance. But what about the others?
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
My opinion is that in most cases, especially independents like me, the small affiliates I get from my favorite products are a simple value add, or bonus, for me. I would be recommending the product anyway.
Maybe you feel that everyone is like you and able to 100% ignore the fact that you get money. But this is not even slightly mirrored in the real world. To the point that I don't even know where you could find an example of it.
Small time folk like me? I was raised with a good Christian work ethic. I'm not out to give anybody bad advice or trick people. If anything I'm guilty of charging too little, rounding down, and not adding any time for emails, phone calls, driving, or my own research into subjects.
I'm sorry that these are the only sorts of people you've rubbed shoulders with! Perhaps you've been to too many IT tech conventions!!
I don't know where you find these IT people. I'm not saying that there isn't anyone, ever, anywhere that isn't able to maintain a low bias rating... I like to think that I am and being autism spectrum tends to make me almost manic about that fact... but I know that getting paid tends to bias me, especially when it means making the mortgage payment or not. But the more you make, the more you get used to having bias, too. But in the real world, go look at SW, every person getting consulting is getting screwed like you would not believe.
ANd we aren't talking small potatoes. We are often talking a few hundred dollars of consulting and tens of thousands in commissions.
