KVM or VMWare
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@pete-s said in KVM or VMWare:
@stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:
@pete-s said in KVM or VMWare:
@stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:
@irj said in KVM or VMWare:
@irj said in KVM or VMWare:
@stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:
The integration with the REST APIs is more important than any of the anscillary features of qemu/libvirt.
Exactly. Stuff isn't done manually anymore.
It's not even that about manual process. It's about being able audit, and have a repeatable process.
Auditing in KVM is pretty much not there lol.
Just a side note, but what type of auditing are you talking about? Security audit? Compliance audit?
All of the above.
OK, thanks.
But how about libvirt being used by openstack and openshift? There has to be a lot of enterprises running that in their hybrid cloud environment. Surely not everyone is running their workloads only on Amazon or Google. Red Hat has to be out there pushing a lot of this to their enterprise customers. And surely these environments are fully automated and auditable just like aws or gcp. Or isn't that the case?
I don't know anyone running RHEV. I also don't know anyone actually running openatack. I'm sure there are a few but it's hardly the norm.
Openshift may use libvirt underneath with kubevirt but I think most are just running containers. I don't know too many places running openshift either over just k8s.
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@irj said in KVM or VMWare:
@pete-s said in KVM or VMWare:
@stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:
@pete-s said in KVM or VMWare:
@stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:
@irj said in KVM or VMWare:
@irj said in KVM or VMWare:
@stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:
The integration with the REST APIs is more important than any of the anscillary features of qemu/libvirt.
Exactly. Stuff isn't done manually anymore.
It's not even that about manual process. It's about being able audit, and have a repeatable process.
Auditing in KVM is pretty much not there lol.
Just a side note, but what type of auditing are you talking about? Security audit? Compliance audit?
All of the above.
OK, thanks.
But how about libvirt being used by openstack and openshift? There has to be a lot of enterprises running that in their hybrid cloud environment. Surely not everyone is running their workloads only on Amazon or Google. Red Hat has to be out there pushing a lot of this to their enterprise customers. And surely these environments are fully automated and auditable just like aws or gcp. Or isn't that the case?
Openshift is on azure now
And I bet the APIs, Monitoring, Auditing, ability to integrate services, etc. is fantastic.
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Here's one example of why KVM isnt more popular than it is. I love how KVM does snapshotting. I can create thousands of snapshots off of a metadata preallocated qcow2 image because it's reallocate on write and not copy on write. You would incur almost no performance hit up to a few thousand snapshots. But who works that way anymore? If you have the experience to automate reallocated snapshots and block commit them back to the base, you have the expertise to just create ephemeral systems and not use snapshots at all. Then you turn your expertise to automation of more important things. It's good at what it does, but when you have the expertise to leverage it at that level, you don't need it anymore.
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@stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:
@pete-s said in KVM or VMWare:
@stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:
@pete-s said in KVM or VMWare:
@stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:
@irj said in KVM or VMWare:
@irj said in KVM or VMWare:
@stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:
The integration with the REST APIs is more important than any of the anscillary features of qemu/libvirt.
Exactly. Stuff isn't done manually anymore.
It's not even that about manual process. It's about being able audit, and have a repeatable process.
Auditing in KVM is pretty much not there lol.
Just a side note, but what type of auditing are you talking about? Security audit? Compliance audit?
All of the above.
OK, thanks.
But how about libvirt being used by openstack and openshift? There has to be a lot of enterprises running that in their hybrid cloud environment. Surely not everyone is running their workloads only on Amazon or Google. Red Hat has to be out there pushing a lot of this to their enterprise customers. And surely these environments are fully automated and auditable just like aws or gcp. Or isn't that the case?
I don't know anyone running RHEV. I also don't know anyone actually running openatack. I'm sure there are a few but it's hardly the norm.
Openshift may use libvirt underneath with kubevirt but I think most are just running containers. I don't know too many places running openshift either over just k8s.
There are 4000+ jobs on linkedin in the US when searching for openstack.
8000+ jobs when searching for openshift. And I see companies such as Bank of America, Citi, Delta Air Lines, Federal Reserve etc. So I'm guessing it's in use for sure. -
@pete-s said in KVM or VMWare:
@stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:
@pete-s said in KVM or VMWare:
@stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:
@pete-s said in KVM or VMWare:
@stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:
@irj said in KVM or VMWare:
@irj said in KVM or VMWare:
@stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:
The integration with the REST APIs is more important than any of the anscillary features of qemu/libvirt.
Exactly. Stuff isn't done manually anymore.
It's not even that about manual process. It's about being able audit, and have a repeatable process.
Auditing in KVM is pretty much not there lol.
Just a side note, but what type of auditing are you talking about? Security audit? Compliance audit?
All of the above.
OK, thanks.
But how about libvirt being used by openstack and openshift? There has to be a lot of enterprises running that in their hybrid cloud environment. Surely not everyone is running their workloads only on Amazon or Google. Red Hat has to be out there pushing a lot of this to their enterprise customers. And surely these environments are fully automated and auditable just like aws or gcp. Or isn't that the case?
I don't know anyone running RHEV. I also don't know anyone actually running openatack. I'm sure there are a few but it's hardly the norm.
Openshift may use libvirt underneath with kubevirt but I think most are just running containers. I don't know too many places running openshift either over just k8s.
There are 4000+ jobs on linkedin in the US when searching for openstack.
8000+ jobs when searching for openshift. And I see companies such as Bank of America, Citi, Delta Air Lines, Federal Reserve etc. So I'm guessing it's in use for sure.Yeah some companies associated with the government are looking at openshift now. The problem they are facing in testing it is lack of talent.
There's 69k+ kubernetes jobs available in kubernetes. Even so kubernetes engineers are hard to find
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@pete-s said in KVM or VMWare:
@stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:
@pete-s said in KVM or VMWare:
@stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:
@pete-s said in KVM or VMWare:
@stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:
@irj said in KVM or VMWare:
@irj said in KVM or VMWare:
@stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:
The integration with the REST APIs is more important than any of the anscillary features of qemu/libvirt.
Exactly. Stuff isn't done manually anymore.
It's not even that about manual process. It's about being able audit, and have a repeatable process.
Auditing in KVM is pretty much not there lol.
Just a side note, but what type of auditing are you talking about? Security audit? Compliance audit?
All of the above.
OK, thanks.
But how about libvirt being used by openstack and openshift? There has to be a lot of enterprises running that in their hybrid cloud environment. Surely not everyone is running their workloads only on Amazon or Google. Red Hat has to be out there pushing a lot of this to their enterprise customers. And surely these environments are fully automated and auditable just like aws or gcp. Or isn't that the case?
I don't know anyone running RHEV. I also don't know anyone actually running openatack. I'm sure there are a few but it's hardly the norm.
Openshift may use libvirt underneath with kubevirt but I think most are just running containers. I don't know too many places running openshift either over just k8s.
There are 4000+ jobs on linkedin in the US when searching for openstack.
8000+ jobs when searching for openshift. And I see companies such as Bank of America, Citi, Delta Air Lines, Federal Reserve etc. So I'm guessing it's in use for sure.That's not really that many positions. And that's not a great metric because a lot are most likely repeats and are possibly just anscillary tech knowledge. "Must understand hypervisors: VMware, openstack, xenserver, etc"
I'm not saying they aren't used but they aren't popular.
Edit because openatack isn't a thing.
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Plus even with things like openshift, kubevirt is doing any KVM work for you. You need 0 KVM expertise to let Kubernetes manage your hypervisor/VMs.
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@stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:
Plus even with things like openshift, kubevirt is doing any KVM work for you. You need 0 KVM expertise to let Kubernetes manage your hypervisor/VMs.
You also need 0 KVM experience to run Proxmox.
@stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:
Also, Proxmox doesn't count as KVM expertise in case that's the angle you're trying to use here.
@scottalanmiller said in KVM or VMWare:
While I never implied it, it absolutely does. That's like saying that working with vSphere doesn't count as VMware experience.
In fact, as Jared was saying, you always deploy with management suites.You do as I say and deploy management suites because the SMB sector does not know jack shit about what they are doing. If they did, you would not have a job fixing their broke ass shit.
Most of the user posts you see about Proxmox never even mention KVM unless someone really fucked shit up.
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@scottalanmiller you are out of touch. You have not had a real job in years, and your big business job was more than a decade ago.
I know I am out of touch, I do keep minor reading on tools and processes though. Even if I am unable to implement them or truly learn them. But your blatant refusal to admit as much and update yourself is clearly showing.
Sure, lots of the SMB mediocrity is still all about the local virtualization. Hell, I still see physical servers on occasion.
But that is not where things are moving.
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I used to use XCP-NG couldn't fault it, moved over to proxmox a while back. I have had no issues with Proxmox. Last time I use Vmware was a couple of businesses was using esxi 6.5 I believe. I personally have no issue with Vmware just have no interest in using it in production.
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@jaredbusch said in KVM or VMWare:
@scottalanmiller you are out of touch. You have not had a real job in years, and your big business job was more than a decade ago.
I know I am out of touch, I do keep minor reading on tools and processes though. Even if I am unable to implement them or truly learn them. But your blatant refusal to admit as much and update yourself is clearly showing.
Sure, lots of the SMB mediocrity is still all about the local virtualization. Hell, I still see physical servers on occasion.
But that is not where things are moving.
I have bank experience currently, though. Just this week, the KVM over VMware discussion came up and KVM won, hands down. It wasn't even close. And that was with VMware themselves pitching their solution.
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@jaredbusch said in KVM or VMWare:
But that is not where things are moving.
There are always "trends" with the "follow the buzz word" crowd. Like "cloud". Did cloud become an import part of the equation, heck yeah. Is every workload going to cloud? Heck no. Is 90% of the workloads on cloud there because it was the right choice? No, it's because it was the word someone knew how to repeat to sound cool.
Heading towards doesn't make something a big solution. If anything, things are "heading away" from VMware since it already had the pole position.
And what "most people" do is almost always total incompetence. Remember, the average company fails. The average of anything is complete garbage. That VMware is used more than anything else is a testament to their sales team, and says nothing about their product (good or bad.) The average deployment is not done based on what is good for the business, but rather what sales is able to convince people of.
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@scottalanmiller said in KVM or VMWare:
@jaredbusch said in KVM or VMWare:
@scottalanmiller you are out of touch. You have not had a real job in years, and your big business job was more than a decade ago.
I know I am out of touch, I do keep minor reading on tools and processes though. Even if I am unable to implement them or truly learn them. But your blatant refusal to admit as much and update yourself is clearly showing.
Sure, lots of the SMB mediocrity is still all about the local virtualization. Hell, I still see physical servers on occasion.
But that is not where things are moving.
I have bank experience currently, though. Just this week, the KVM over VMware discussion came up and KVM won, hands down. It wasn't even close. And that was with VMware themselves pitching their solution.
I just simply don't believe this unless it's a no name single branch bank somewhere. In which case, his original point still stands.
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@scottalanmiller said in KVM or VMWare:
@jaredbusch said in KVM or VMWare:
But that is not where things are moving.
There are always "trends" with the "follow the buzz word" crowd. Like "cloud". Did cloud become an import part of the equation, heck yeah. Is every workload going to cloud? Heck no. Is 90% of the workloads on cloud there because it was the right choice? No, it's because it was the word someone knew how to repeat to sound cool.
These are trends anymore. They are best practices.
It's more than should this specific workload go to the cloud or not. There's so many things at play beside the infrastructure of a single application. If you understood compliance frameworks and SDLC maturity, you'd know that doing all that stuff on premise is much more difficult and alot more work for the organization to maintain. In a large enterprise, audits are constantly going on, and there's so many things that I have to be in place.
You can say all these requirements are stupid, and the most companies fail at IT. At the end of the day, these companies are making billions of dollars and revenue and are leaders in their industry. These leaders are paying $200-300 an hour for contractors and consultants to increase their maturity levels.
Your expertise is mostly with businesses with less than 10 employees who are struggling to survive let alone care about IT processes. It's such an apple and oranges comparison to Fortune 500s. You may have had expertise in enterprise over a decade ago, but it's obvious that's it's been over 10 years since you've had any experience. Nothing wrong with having a niche, but I wonder why you left $500k + job to deal with these tiny businesses.
I also think you shouldn't reject new concepts without understanding them. You should do some training in modern IT. I honestly think you'd love it! Embrace new concepts and at least give them the time of day. The attitude of everyone is stupid except me gets old. Especially when you aren't grasping the concepts or are basing your opinions off how things were 15 years ago.
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I would of thought the industry standard would be vmware. I know a lot of datacenteres use KVM/Proxmox though
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Maybe we need to level set on what "KVM talent" means.
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@stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:
Maybe we need to level set on what "KVM talent" means.
Sure, and as well, what does VMware talent, mean? It's not one sided. When someone hires a VMware resource, the average is pretty bad. This is nothing about VMware as a product or vendor, I'm talking purely IT practicioners out in the field selling themselves to employers. If I put out a job req for "VMware experience" or the like, what do I get and what do companies expect.
In many cases, as employees, you just get people who have a passing ability to install and spin up VMs. Rarely do you get someone who can even have a conversation about how VMware works at all. Knowledge rarely goes deeper than what can be gleaned by anyone who knows a little about virtualization looking at the interface for a few minutes. Even fundamental information about how to license it is often over their heads, something I think is a big piece of the baseline minimal viable knowledge base.
If you hire a VMware firm, most don't have anything more than one or two employees similar to the above, some don't even have that. The majority are just sales people who then call VMware and pay for support from the vendor. They aren't VMware experts or even VMware support, they are just resellers. Some, sure, have skills, but not the majority. Anyone and everyone can just call VMware (or any other vendor of this nature) and sign up to resell their product and maybe, and only sometimes, have to pass some minimal certification level.
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@stuartjordan said in KVM or VMWare:
I would of thought the industry standard would be vmware. I know a lot of datacenteres use KVM/Proxmox though
"Industry standard" means nothing here. First, no one knows the real deployment numbers in the industry. But studies suggest that VMware absolutely dominates the in house deployments and KVM absolutely dominates the huge enterprise / cloud space (all the Amazons, Alibabas, Googles, IBMs, etc.) So it really depends what you are looking at.
But like Windows, VMware is often installed because there was no evaluation. SOmeone just used the name that they know or what a sales person said to buy. How often is it evaluated versus just sold and no one does the IT work around the process? No one knows.
Also, do we define "industry standard" simply by "what lay people know best" or "what companies install most, even when no IT is involved?"
Same for operating systems. There's no industry standard. Same with office suites. Same with essentially everything. CRM, ERP, IDE, accounting apps, servers, desktops, etc. There are market leaders. There are good and bad products. But not industry standards.
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@irj said in KVM or VMWare:
These are trends anymore. They are best practices.
Wow, um, no. Anything but. The absolutely, total opposite. Best practice means that there is essentially no exception. These aren't even "good for the majority."
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@irj said in KVM or VMWare:
You can say all these requirements are stupid, and the most companies fail at IT. At the end of the day, these companies are making billions of dollars and revenue and are leaders in their industry. These leaders are paying $200-300 an hour for contractors and consultants to increase their maturity levels.
Your expertise is mostly with businesses with less than 10 employees who are struggling to survive let alone care about IT processes. It's such an apple and oranges comparison to Fortune 500s. You may have had expertise in enterprise over a decade ago, but it's obvious that's it's been over 10 years since you've had any experience. Nothing wrong with having a niche, but I wonder why you left $500k + job to deal with these tiny businesses.Y'all like to say I've no experience for over a decade. Yet I was still on Wall St. full time just six years ago and have never had a gap of more than maybe two years since the 90s that I wasn't working for a Fortune 100. I still work in the space today. Just because I've manage to add lots and lots of other companies, too, doesn't mean I don't still work in the enterprise space. And I can tell you, we still see absolutely enormous companies working, for better or worse, absolutely nothing like you describe. Not that others don't, of course they do. But trust me that Fortune 10 CIOs still demand in house servers when SaaS would be better and on prem instead of hosted and on and on.
I'm only for the "every situation should be evaluated and nothing be knee jerk" camp, I push these types of solutions all of the time. The amount of "no cloud here" and "no saas here" in the Fortune 10 is far more than you are implying it is (which is basically zero.)
