Held Hostage By A Vendor
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Have you ever been held hostage by a vendor? We use Bradbury Co. for our roll forming machines and they are quite complex. They do require a single PC to interact with the rest of the system. When I took over this job 3 1/2 years ago, these machines were already 3 years old and on XP with no documentation on disaster recovery procedures.
Well, I inquired on obtaining their software and instructions on how to install it in the even the PC crashes and we need a new one. This is their initial quotes:
"We will modify your IPC download system for your Line to use the new TSC Bradbury scheduling and download software on a Windows 7 PC, using a new database to import parts. The DDE server will be replaced with the Rockwell OPC client. The PLC and CTC programs will be modified to communicate with the OPC server.
We will provide a new PC for the Line w/ monitor that will be installed by you. We will load and test the software at Bradbury so that it can be installed in place of the current system by your qualified personnel. The system will be connected by Ethernet cables and the line PC will have 2 nic cards to connect the office and the line networks. You will be responsible for running the Ethernet cables.
Sale Price $ 21,500.00USD ea.
Installation and cables are not included in this pricing. Installation will be completed at our standard per-diem rates as listed below. We expect that it will require one technician on site for 5 days.
Option#2 We will replicate your current IPC download system for your Line to use your software TSC Bradbury scheduling and download software on a Windows 7 PC, using your existing database to import parts. The DDE server will be used in XPmode. The bundle ticket printer software will have to use a new dongle and license. We will load and test this at Bradbury and ship it to you for installation.
Installation is not included in this price; Sale Price $12,200.00USD ea."I politely but firmly responded that I can do the software install if they provide directions and they replied:
"It would be nice if there was, but the software is custom software and needs to be tested and configured to ensure that it works. It almost always requires much manipulation to get all of the setting for windows correct. The computer cost is minimal compared to the other needs."
So, am I just underestimating the complexity of this or are they just out to gouge? Mind you, I am NOT trashing this company...just trying to get a DR plan in place and minimal cost.
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From a complexity standpoint it might be true. NTG makes products like this and we do not allow customers to install it themselves. We only do it, onsight, with our own engineers.
However, we do it as part of a service contract and are not charging for that work. So from a complexity standpoint, it is similar. From a hostage standpoint, we hope that it is not.
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Rockwell SCADA software is very expensive. and if this includes their customizations on it that is not an unusually high price.
They (third-party Rockwell Engineering) gave me the option of doing it my self or having them do it. I chose to have them do it considering this ran the pumps for the whole towns water supply and also prevented overflows.
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I remember a few years ago we needed some customisation or other and the vendor quoted a day's labour at around $1000. I sent the order over and less than an hour later I got a reply from the programmer saying he'd completed the work. I was like "you could at least have pretended it took you over an hour to make me feel better!"
Anyway, we're in the same point with some software to run our testing machines. The program apparently needs re-writing to support Windows 7 and that quote runs in to tens of thousands as well. I think we're going to stick with XP.
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Thanks for the insight...so, we really to invest in one of these options and perhaps I can make an image of the new machines and use that for Disaster Recovery?
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@garak0410 said:
Thanks for the insight...so, we really to invest in one of these options and perhaps I can make an image of the new machines and use that for Disaster Recovery?
That's a good idea. Try virtualizing too (P2V) to see what your options are.
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I don't know if their claims of complexity are overly-exaggerated or not, but it sounds like what they are charging you for is the labor of their engineers. Without knowing the software and your environment/setup, I can't comment on whether that seems steep, but everything a business gets charged for is a much higher rate than it probably should be.
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@garak0410 said:
When it comes to Engineering and manufacturing software, it's not typically something you want to become responsible for. If they offer, let them have it. Deflects blame from you to them. Since the software is custom, I wouldn't touch it even if I could.
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@Bill-Kindle said:
@garak0410 said:
When it comes to Engineering and manufacturing software, it's not typically something you want to become responsible for. If they offer, let them have it. Deflects blame from you to them. Since the software is custom, I wouldn't touch it even if I could.
I'd have to agree with this. We have a few PLCs that are super finicky and have no interface for support. Whenever something comes up we have to call our vendor or manufacturer (a Swiss company) to get them fixed.
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@coliver Welcome to the community!!
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We were looking at this same issue a few months ago - we lucked out and a technician did the upgrade to our new machine, though I'm pretty sure he wasn't suppose to.
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I was always told no support was offered on PLC/SCADA stuff if we did it our selfs. The upgrade from them usually comes with 1-3 year support. going cheaply in this area when they can control so much just may cost you your job if something goes wrong.
