Discussion Room - Pertino
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@PSX_Defector said:
@Josh said:
Bob - thanks for setting this up! Much easier to stay on top of threads.
Security: Pertino is installed on each end point that you want connected to the network, so we are able to deploy 256-bit AES encryption end to end. The connection is an SSL connection. Data passes through our hosted "routers" to get to each destination. Each network is completely separate, and no data is stored or even cached. Device or user-based access to resources can be restricted with just two clicks.
Now all we need is those [moderated] I went around and around with a while back who were saying you were gonna get hacked if you used Pertino.
I'm still trying to get the thing to work in a point to point fashion. Lots of folks have devices behind the firewall that won't be able to either use Pertino or they don't want to have the talk with users about installing it on their personal devices. If only you would release it in source I could compile the thing on something I can work with in that regards.
@psx_defector - We use outbound port 443 SSL to make the connection, so your users should be able to connect despite being behind the firewall. You can literally close all inbound ports and still connect to your Pertino resources.
Are you looking at getting it on your Linux boxes? We've got a Debian package available and an RPM in private beta.
No plans for true point-to-point connection at this point. We're still doing all the routing via localized hosted routers.
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RPM is working great. Best of all the packages I think. We use Windows, Mac, DEB and RPM.
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I might be able to do something with the RPM. I'm just not big on Debian distros. My initial messing around with a psudeo point to point in Windows failed miserably. It wouldn't do much without performing a bunch of crazy local routes.
Of course, compiling from source would make my life easier.
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I'm not a DEB fan either but GroveSocial is on Ubuntu so we've been working with it recently.
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@scottalanmiller said:
I'm not a DEB fan either but GroveSocial is on Ubuntu so we've been working with it recently.
Isn't it generally considered that debian based systems are for consumers and rpm based systems for business? That's what I always tend to see. Anything applied to business practices always uses RPMs. FWIW
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Am I correct in my understanding that for every person who wants to connect to their work PC either directly or through RDS will require at least two licenses of Pertino? one for office computer and one for the home computer? If the user wants to use their phone as well, that would be a third, and a second computer from home, that would be a fourth Pertino license?
wow.. these licenses per user can add up fast.
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I just watched Scott's YouTube video on Pertino, not bad.
But unlike a traditional VPN solution - you need to setup each endpoint specifically in the Pertino cloud, right? This can get costly pretty fast considering the shear number of end points. Once a VPN solution is in place it's pretty much done. Granted there's a lot of upfront setup and that takes time and money sure, but I'm guessing the pay back for a small business would be under a year compared to the on going expenses of a subscription solution.
What am I missing?
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@Dashrender said:
Am I correct in my understanding that for every person who wants to connect to their work PC either directly or through RDS will require at least two licenses of Pertino? one for office computer and one for the home computer? If the user wants to use their phone as well, that would be a third, and a second computer from home, that would be a fourth Pertino license?
wow.. these licenses per user can add up fast.
If you are working it that way, yes. The billing is done on a per device basis which was a change from their per person billing. Per device makes much more sense in my opinion.
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@ajstringham said:
Per device makes much more sense in my opinion.
Why?
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@Dashrender said:
I just watched Scott's YouTube video on Pertino, not bad.
But unlike a traditional VPN solution - you need to setup each endpoint specifically in the Pertino cloud, right? This can get costly pretty fast considering the shear number of end points. Once a VPN solution is in place it's pretty much done. Granted there's a lot of upfront setup and that takes time and money sure, but I'm guessing the pay back for a small business would be under a year compared to the on going expenses of a subscription solution.
What am I missing?
No. You setup users and then when Pertino is installed they authenticate with those credentials and they're on. If you have 20 users with 60 devices total you don't have to setup for 60 devices, just 20 users. Also, a feature they added (FINALLY!) was being able to do batch adds. Used to be one at a time which was very limiting.
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@dashrender Think about it. I think it was like $10/person/month before. Ok, so we have 8 users who only need one device each. That's $80. You have another 8 users who need 3 devices each. So that's also $80. So for 16 users that $160/month. Now, drop that down to, say $3/device. In the same illustration you have 32 devices. That means you've gone from paying $160/month to $96/month and it scales more easily. More efficient use of funds.
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@scottalanmiller uses the illustration of AD authentication for remote users.
Say you have a group of users only using Pertino as a VPN to authenticate against the DC. Looking at the previous billing scheme that can be very expensive. However, by device you now have much better scalability. For what you would have paid for one user for one device you've now got three users online.
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@ajstringham said:
@dashrender Think about it. I think it was like $10/person/month before. Ok, so we have 8 users who only need one device each. That's $80. You have another 8 users who need 3 devices each. So that's also $80. So for 16 users that $160/month. Now, drop that down to, say $3/device. In the same illustration you have 32 devices. That means you've gone from paying $160/month to $96/month and it scales more easily. More efficient use of funds.
I agree it's going to be uncommon for the average user to have three devices so the new price point makes since, but I've never heard of this product before so I can't operate with the understanding that they used to have a per person plan.
Now all that said, what about a person like your boss who has a work laptop, a work desktop, a home laptop, iPhone, Ipad and who knows what else. In tech heavy companies it's not uncommon to see several people with 5+ devices now making those people cost quite a bit more than the rest. I suppose in the end it's a 'damned if you and damned if don't' type of situation.
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@Dashrender Originally, when it was per person, it was a 3 device/person limit. If you are the IT guy and using your account or any admin account for Pertino, this turns into a problem quick. I believe they have removed that since going to the new pricing scheme. One way or another there are tradeoffs. For someone with 5 devices it's more expensive. For most people it's more cost effective. I agree with the per person scheme. Very odd but they've moved away from that.
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@ajstringham said:
@Dashrender said:
I just watched Scott's YouTube video on Pertino, not bad.
But unlike a traditional VPN solution - you need to setup each endpoint specifically in the Pertino cloud, right? This can get costly pretty fast considering the shear number of end points. Once a VPN solution is in place it's pretty much done. Granted there's a lot of upfront setup and that takes time and money sure, but I'm guessing the pay back for a small business would be under a year compared to the on going expenses of a subscription solution.
What am I missing?
No. You setup users and then when Pertino is installed they authenticate with those credentials and they're on. If you have 20 users with 60 devices total you don't have to setup for 60 devices, just 20 users. Also, a feature they added (FINALLY!) was being able to do batch adds. Used to be one at a time which was very limiting.
OK you don't have to spend the time provisioning all of the end point, but you do have to install Pertino onto all of them.
Here's a sample setup.
Corp office has 5 servers
remote office has 5 workstations.
With VPN I setup a P2P VPN between the firewalls and I'm done.With Pertino I need to install the client on 10 devices (OK no big deal) but I have a monthly charge for this forever. Perhaps Pertino isn't intended as a point to point replacement.
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@ajstringham said:
@Dashrender Originally, when it was per person, it was a 3 device/person limit. If you are the IT guy and using your account or any admin account for Pertino, this turns into a problem quick. I believe they have removed that since going to the new pricing scheme. One way or another there are tradeoffs. For someone with 5 devices it's more expensive. For most people it's more cost effective. I agree with the per person scheme. Very odd but they've moved away from that.
OK this makes more since, the limits bring it in line with the costs of the device pricing seen now, only it's more usable as you mentioned.
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@Dashrender said:
@ajstringham said:
@Dashrender said:
I just watched Scott's YouTube video on Pertino, not bad.
But unlike a traditional VPN solution - you need to setup each endpoint specifically in the Pertino cloud, right? This can get costly pretty fast considering the shear number of end points. Once a VPN solution is in place it's pretty much done. Granted there's a lot of upfront setup and that takes time and money sure, but I'm guessing the pay back for a small business would be under a year compared to the on going expenses of a subscription solution.
What am I missing?
No. You setup users and then when Pertino is installed they authenticate with those credentials and they're on. If you have 20 users with 60 devices total you don't have to setup for 60 devices, just 20 users. Also, a feature they added (FINALLY!) was being able to do batch adds. Used to be one at a time which was very limiting.
OK you don't have to spend the time provisioning all of the end point, but you do have to install Pertino onto all of them.
Here's a sample setup.
Corp office has 5 servers
remote office has 5 workstations.
With VPN I setup a P2P VPN between the firewalls and I'm done.With Pertino I need to install the client on 10 devices (OK no big deal) but I have a monthly charge for this forever. Perhaps Pertino isn't intended as a point to point replacement.
Actually, think about it. Let's say it's $4/device. I think that's about as high as they go but @josh could give you more info. That's $40/month or $480/year. Over the course of, say, 5 years, it adds up to $2400. Wow.
Flip side: You have a Cisco ASA or Juniper or Fortinet or whatever at each end. Take the cost of an appliance and multiply by 2. Say it's $800. That's $1600. Now add in licensing for each device that gets expensive every time you grow. Now add in the hours of time it takes to get the two ends configured and tested and working. Now add in troubleshooting client issues. Or is it the firewall? Is it at site A or B? Crap, they changed something so now I need to upgrade my appliances and get new licensing...Finally, what happens when you get a surge that fries one of the firewalls. Start all over.
Pertino eliminates the time, high level of expertise required, maintenance of hardware and licensing and keeps it at an easy to manage price and in a nice web interface you can access anywhere.
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@ajstringham said:
Actually, think about it. Let's say it's $4/device. I think that's about as high as they go but @josh could give you more info. That's $40/month or $480/year. Over the course of, say, 5 years, it adds up to $2400. Wow.
Flip side: You have a Cisco ASA or Juniper or Fortinet or whatever at each end. Take the cost of an appliance and multiply by 2. Say it's $800. That's $1600. Now add in licensing for each device that gets expensive every time you grow. Now add in the hours of time it takes to get the two ends configured and tested and working. Now add in troubleshooting client issues. Or is it the firewall? Is it at site A or B? Crap, they changed something so now I need to upgrade my appliances and get new licensing...Finally, what happens when you get a surge that fries one of the firewalls. Start all over.
Pertino eliminates the time, high level of expertise required, maintenance of hardware and licensing and keeps it at an easy to manage price and in a nice web interface you can access anywhere.
I think I can say that I've spent less than the $800 (the left over from your example) in support costs on the above stated setup in the initial setup and ongoing support over 10 years. Could those things you mention happen, sure - but they are much more likely in a client to core network setup than a Point to Point setup. When I have troubles with my Point to Point setup it's always been either the ISP is having a problem, or the firewall appliance freaked (in which case a reboot resolved every time except for a fried unit). In the case of the fried unit, I simply received the unit - restored my backed up config (one of the things I love about Cisco's text configs) and I was going in less than 10 of receiving the replacement.
OH, and you can't count the firewall appliances in my case either because I'd have to have it no matter what to protect my endpoints from the internet, and in my case, the P2P VPN was included. At this scale most appliances seem to cover up to 50 users without any additional licensing.
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@Dashrender Well, it's what works best for each environment.
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@ajstringham said:
@Dashrender Well, it's what works best for each environment.
Don't get me wrong, I love the idea. I loved Himachi when it first hit the scene. I just can't justify the expense in my situation since my users never connect from anywhere but home and once the VPN clients are setup (and have been for many many years) the home computers can access everything inside my network and I haven't paid a penny more than the original purchase that included I think up to 20 or so VPN client terminations. Even when I moved to Sonicwall a few years ago, the VPN clients came with that too.
The best sales pitch I can here for this product is, "does your current VPN solution require a significant amount of tech support? Client endpoints not connecting? VPNs dropping? etc? Then try this product" and I do fully believe that you'll get sales and more than likely end up with a much lower incident rate and happier end users, but if you don't have that high incident rate now... the extra spend seems odd.
