Pronunciations of SQL Derived Database Names and Terms
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"What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet." -
@RojoLoco said in What is a Database Management System:
PostgreSQL = "post grease-quell"? I got really fing sick of this type of elitism that tried to change the long accepted pronunciations of audio acronyms. Forgive me if my give-a-f isn't activating...
Exactly my feeling. It's extremely elitist to feel that after years or decades of a name being official, commonly known and standard to suddenly introduce new pronunciations and hold to them just for the sake of being "better" than the people who have known the name for a long time. The pronunciations above have been accepted... always. Nothing is being changed. All of the pronunciations were provided by the vendors who created the names when they were created. Any deviation from that is the elitist hipster "doing my own thing just to be better than thou" thing.
You can never call someone elitist for being accurate or just using the name that existed since day one. But saying that that is elitist would be elitist. Accuracy is never elitism. But intentional inaccuracy could be.
And saying that things like My-sequal are standard is pushing it, hard. I'd be shocked to find out that even half of people who use the product say it that way. Maybe they do, but certainly in circles I know, it's unheard of to mispronounce it in that way.
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@scottalanmiller said in What is a Database Management System:
@Dashrender said in What is a Database Management System:
@JaredBusch said in What is a Database Management System:
@scottalanmiller said in What is a Database Management System:
MySQL is proncounced "My S-Q-L", never "My Sequel." This is a commercial product with an official pronunciation.
Official or not, it has been MySequel to most for a long ass time.
I was thinking the same thing. Is it Data or Data?
It's not, because it is a proper name.
Or as they say in Star Trek, "One is its name, one is not."
Data is plural
Datum is singular -
This is literally the first time I've ever heard someone suggest that the mispronunciations of any of these words was the "more common". That mispronunciations happen often is without question the case. But I'm totally shocked by the feeling that the new made up pronunciations are the more common today - I had no idea that some people felt this way. The use of those has been so uncommon over the decades that I had no idea that any area had adopted them enough to not be the occasional "oh they don't use it and didn't know" pronunciation. But if you think the original ones went away, they never did and lots of people would be shocked to find out that people think that the original names are now weird and unused.
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It's not like the most casual investigation of these products doesn't turn up the pronunciations. The moment anyone says "how do you pronounce that" anyone who doesn't know would be able to find it in seconds.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MySQL
This is a product that has been around for 22 years. It was only a few years ago (less than ten) that I heard My-sequel for the first time. And I'm not sure if I've ever heard it outside of the SW community.
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http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/7231/how-is-sql-pronounced
It goes back and forth, but this says it all:
"According to the Computer Contradictionary (Stan Kelly-Bootle, MIT Press, 1995), "those pronouncing SQL as \ess-kew-ell\ rather than \sequel\ are instantly revealed as charlatans incapable of confuting the six and seventy jarring normal forms. Those who have really suffered are allowed to say \squeal\ "."
Bottom line is they are both correct, ess kew ell for unix mafks, sequel for those with a Windows background. Both those groups of people exist, btw.
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@RojoLoco Now it all makes sense...Thats why I say Sequel!
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@RojoLoco said in What is a Database Management System:
http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/7231/how-is-sql-pronounced
It goes back and forth, but this says it all:
"According to the Computer Contradictionary (Stan Kelly-Bootle, MIT Press, 1995), "those pronouncing SQL as \ess-kew-ell\ rather than \sequel\ are instantly revealed as charlatans incapable of confuting the six and seventy jarring normal forms. Those who have really suffered are allowed to say \squeal\ "."
Sequel is the IBM name. ISO uses S-Q-L. You can make a point for either of those. Sequel is the "original and classic name". S-Q-L is the hipster "rebranding" and only refers to the ISO versions. Using either with SQL is acceptable. You have to decide if you are going for the original, official name or the later revisionist name. Since SQL is literally a shortening of the word SEQUEL it really gives things away. But that's quite unrelated to the MySQL or PostgreSQL names which are proper names today, not names of standards.
However, if you use S-Q-L instead of sequel with the language you can become inaccurate if you try to talk about it historically since the name S-Q-L only exists in any formality in the post-ISO world. And French revisionist renaming is a bit.... hipster in the truest form. It's like how RAID was later "revised" to standard for something different and... not sensible.
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SQL is no longer a product. So it doesn't have the same formality as a product name. There is no vendor making SQL any longer. That makes for a weird situation where the original vendor says one thing that it's name was and the standards body has a new name that they like to use.
If you use the full name of ISO SQL, you should always pronounce the S-Q-L, for sure.
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Thank goodness for this thread...I needed a good laugh today. Its so...detoxifying!
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@RojoLoco said in What is a Database Management System:
To me, any acronym's pronunciation is about saving time with fewer syllables or by using a pronunciation that is an actual English word. Even though the longer ess kew ell is considered to be historically original, it has more syllables than sequel, thereby making it utterly inefficient at expressing the same acronym for people whose time is valuable. Fewer syllables = I'm not spending any extra time saying what I need to say. Regardless of what anyone thinks is "standard" or "accepted", the pronunciation with fewer syllables should always win. Unless you just like hearing yourself talk.
I think that's sensible and I think in all three cases that holds up.
SQL is "sequel" which is the shorter to pronounce.
MySQL is "Myes Q L" which is easier and faster to say than "My se-quel". Syllabically it might seem shorter, but actually saying it your tongue can say it more easily - less "stops" in your mouth.
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@scottalanmiller said in What is a Database Management System:
@RojoLoco said in What is a Database Management System:
@JaredBusch said in What is a Database Management System:
@scottalanmiller said in What is a Database Management System:
MySQL is proncounced "My S-Q-L", never "My Sequel." This is a commercial product with an official pronunciation.
Official or not, it has been MySequel to most for a long ass time.
It's always been pronounced "sequel". I've literall;y never heard it any other way, and I would laugh if I did. To hell with "official".
"Always" is pushing it. For many years you would never hear that. It's a relatively recent things that more and more casual users of it have started to make their own pronunciations. If you say "MySequel" you definitely flag yourself as not being familiar with the product. People would recognize you as not being very familiar with it very quickly. Definitely something that in a job interview would raise some eyebrows. In SMB circles where DBAs and UNIX Admins are rare, you can totally get away with it. With people who really manage MySQL instances, it would come across very differently.
um, WTF with the over broad generalizing yet again?
Every where I have ever been, it has been pronounced my sequel. And , unlike you I actually talk to many, many, people and hear what they say.
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@RojoLoco said in What is a Database Management System:
Even though the longer ess kew ell is considered to be historically original, it has more syllables than sequel
Backwards on SQL. SQL was always "sequel". It's only recently that ISO SQL changed how it is pronounced for their own uses. The language family from IBM long ago is "sequel".
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@JaredBusch said in What is a Database Management System:
@scottalanmiller said in What is a Database Management System:
@RojoLoco said in What is a Database Management System:
@JaredBusch said in What is a Database Management System:
@scottalanmiller said in What is a Database Management System:
MySQL is proncounced "My S-Q-L", never "My Sequel." This is a commercial product with an official pronunciation.
Official or not, it has been MySequel to most for a long ass time.
It's always been pronounced "sequel". I've literall;y never heard it any other way, and I would laugh if I did. To hell with "official".
"Always" is pushing it. For many years you would never hear that. It's a relatively recent things that more and more casual users of it have started to make their own pronunciations. If you say "MySequel" you definitely flag yourself as not being familiar with the product. People would recognize you as not being very familiar with it very quickly. Definitely something that in a job interview would raise some eyebrows. In SMB circles where DBAs and UNIX Admins are rare, you can totally get away with it. With people who really manage MySQL instances, it would come across very differently.
um, WTF with the over broad generalizing yet again?
Every where I have ever been, it has been pronounced my sequel. And , unlike you I actually talk to many, many, people and hear what they say.
Ditto
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@scottalanmiller said in What is a Database Management System:
@RojoLoco said in What is a Database Management System:
To me, any acronym's pronunciation is about saving time with fewer syllables or by using a pronunciation that is an actual English word. Even though the longer ess kew ell is considered to be historically original, it has more syllables than sequel, thereby making it utterly inefficient at expressing the same acronym for people whose time is valuable. Fewer syllables = I'm not spending any extra time saying what I need to say. Regardless of what anyone thinks is "standard" or "accepted", the pronunciation with fewer syllables should always win. Unless you just like hearing yourself talk.
I think that's sensible and I think in all three cases that holds up.
SQL is "sequel" which is the shorter to pronounce.
MySQL is "Myes Q L" which is easier and faster to say than "My se-quel". Syllabically it might seem shorter, but actually saying it your tongue can say it more easily - less "stops" in your mouth.
PostgreSQL is smooth with the "postgres Q L", I mean nothing makes that word great. But it is smoother than trying to say Postgre... S Q L or another alternative.
Shorter = always better when it comes to audio acronyms. I have always applied that logic to computer stuff... standard, accepted ways be damned. I'm a loner, Dottie.... a rebel.
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@RojoLoco said in What is a Database Management System:
@scottalanmiller said in What is a Database Management System:
@RojoLoco said in What is a Database Management System:
To me, any acronym's pronunciation is about saving time with fewer syllables or by using a pronunciation that is an actual English word. Even though the longer ess kew ell is considered to be historically original, it has more syllables than sequel, thereby making it utterly inefficient at expressing the same acronym for people whose time is valuable. Fewer syllables = I'm not spending any extra time saying what I need to say. Regardless of what anyone thinks is "standard" or "accepted", the pronunciation with fewer syllables should always win. Unless you just like hearing yourself talk.
I think that's sensible and I think in all three cases that holds up.
SQL is "sequel" which is the shorter to pronounce.
MySQL is "Myes Q L" which is easier and faster to say than "My se-quel". Syllabically it might seem shorter, but actually saying it your tongue can say it more easily - less "stops" in your mouth.
PostgreSQL is smooth with the "postgres Q L", I mean nothing makes that word great. But it is smoother than trying to say Postgre... S Q L or another alternative.
Shorter = always better when it comes to audio acronyms. I have always applied that logic to computer stuff... standard, accepted ways be damned. I'm a loner, Dottie.... a rebel.
That was my point. Both the shorter AND the official always seem to line up.
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@JaredBusch said in What is a Database Management System:
Every where I have ever been, it has been pronounced my sequel. And , unlike you I actually talk to many, many, people and hear what they say.
Where do you find all of these people? I've worked with MySQL for a very long time, and this is all news to me. I've worked in companies of all sizes with it. And of all types. Outside of SW, I'm serious that I may never have heard this as you describe. It's still so rare that when someone says it out loud it really catches my attention because it sounds so odd.
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2972334/correct-pronunciation-of-mysql
It's not like every major resource doesn't have it documented how it is called. It's not like it is not a proper name. Who are these people in droves using this new pronunciation that they've determined to use against the will of the product itself? Why do I not run into them (outside of SW where it is pretty expected due to the bubble effect and that most people are buyers, not IT.)
Are you finding it in database shops with DBAs? Or is it limited to the one man shops where using the term out loud never happens?
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First of all, I try very hard to never refer to Wikipedia as actual facts as anybody can change wikipedia at any moment in time. If I were to ever use wikipedia, then it would be just to familiarize myself with a particular subject.
Going back to my college classes and pulled the book from my database class. SQL (Second Edition)
Visual QuickStart Guide by Chris Fehily (2nd ed.) page xv "SQL isn't pronounced sequel; that pronunciation is a historical artifact. Avoid the error and articulate each letter: S-Q-L. m I disagree with people who claim that saying sequel is so common that nothing's wrong with it. You shouldn't say sequel for the same reason that you shouldn't split infinitives in your novel; it generally may be accepted, but it will rasp on the ears of knowledgeable people. Also, pronounce MySQL as my-es-kyoo-el and PostgreSQL as post-gres-kyoo-el (particularly if you are in a job interview)." -
@NerdyDad said in What is a Database Management System:
First of all, I try very hard to never refer to Wikipedia as actual facts as anybody can change wikipedia at any moment in time. If I were to ever use wikipedia, then it would be just to familiarize myself with a particular subject.
That's not actually good logic. First of all, not just anyone can change it, it doesn't quite work that way. Second, changes trigger notifications to people, immediately. There are a lot of protections in place. Third, it is heavily peer reviewed, the most reviewed source there has ever been. Fourth, in research tests, it is the most accurate reference material of its type.
Using "anyone can change it at any time" is like evaluating RAID by saying "RAID 5 can survive ANY drive failure, therefore it's great!" This looks at one "under the hood detail" and misses the big picture. RAID 10 is more reliable than RAID 5, because of the resulting reliability. And Wikipedia is more accurate than any other similar reference because of resulting accuracy. Does that mean that you always trust it, no. Does it mean that you trust it more than other sources, yes. If you don't have faith in something peer reviewed and monitored, you should have less faith in everything else. Question everything? Of course. But never act like Wikipedia isn't among the most reliable and accurate sources that you can have. Nothing is always right, but nothing has the checks that WP has, either.
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@NerdyDad said in What is a Database Management System:
Going back to my college classes and pulled the book from my database class. SQL (Second Edition)
Visual QuickStart Guide by Chris Fehily (2nd ed.) page xv "SQL isn't pronounced sequel; that pronunciation is a historical artifact. Avoid the error and articulate each letter: S-Q-L. m I disagree with people who claim that saying sequel is so common that nothing's wrong with it. You shouldn't say sequel for the same reason that you shouldn't split infinitives in your novel; it generally may be accepted, but it will rasp on the ears of knowledgeable people. Also, pronounce MySQL as my-es-kyoo-el and PostgreSQL as post-gres-kyoo-el (particularly if you are in a job interview)."So let me ask you, even though I mostly agree with his points (ISO SQL is S-Q-L, but "historical artefact" of a name seems an odd way to describe "changing the name") and he definitely gets ISO SQL, MySQL and PostgreSQL correct.... why would you trust that one book over Wikipedia?
That book is from an exceptionally low end publisher (I like their stuff, but let's be honest, Peachpit was very... novice.) Writers for those books are generally decent, but it's a low paying job and reflects the opinion of a single person. The publisher does not check the material. Generally there are one or two peer reviewers that are paid almost nothing. They try to review the material but tend to focus on the meat and have almost no time to verify anything else. And in many of these books there is literally no review whatsoever. You will find this old books loaded with typos, broken examples and information that is clearly not applicable and copied from some other source.
And as a printed book, errata found later cannot be edited. So it is a point in time snapshot of one person's opinion that may or may not have been reviewed by one or a few additional people.
And you feel that that should be taken with a grain of salt compared to a living, continuously reviewed document that has thousands of people reviewing it not just initially, but regularly? It's not even in the same ballpark.
