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    When We Start to Eat the Teachers: Millerian Societal Collapse

    Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved IT Discussion
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    • KellyK
      Kelly
      last edited by

      Your postulation @scottalanmiller appears opposed to your other writings about the lack of value in formal IT education where you have advised others that getting a degree in an IT discipline is a waste. Am I misunderstanding your stance?

      scottalanmillerS 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
      • scottalanmillerS
        scottalanmiller @Kelly
        last edited by

        @Kelly said in When We Start to Eat the Teachers: Millerian Societal Collapse:

        Your postulation @scottalanmiller appears opposed to your other writings about the lack of value in formal IT education where you have advised others that getting a degree in an IT discipline is a waste. Am I misunderstanding your stance?

        Actually, it's the same. We've already eaten the teachers, making the value of education today below zero. It's because we are already far, far into this kind of collapse that the education is so bad.

        So... it's not that I don't recommend that we fix education, I certainly do and that's why I've put in so much time volunteering with universities. But until it is fixed, I recommend that students avoid it as it isn't working today.

        So my position, that education is worthless as it stands, is actually the reason that I feel that the article is demonstrated in the real world. We currently pay professors as low as a quarter what a qualified person to teach should earn in the private sector, with less flexible benefits! It's a rare person that will give up an awesome, flexible, stable job to take a risky, low paying, uncertain teaching job.

        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
        • scottalanmillerS
          scottalanmiller
          last edited by

          And it is also important to note... I believe that the career value of university is very, very low. The overall value of university, if you understand the loss to career value, can be... moderate. If you measure it in the value of the party, the exposure to people and ideas, forced to learn things you would never have taught yourself, it has value that it lacks in career value. But even that, there are alternative ways to gain all of that knowledge. But not as dramatically so as IT career knowledge.

          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
          • ObsolesceO
            Obsolesce
            last edited by

            Are teachers being consumed as a result of there being too many and too few job openings, or are they being consumed due to the lack of pay in their profession or specialty, therefore choosing a different, higher paying job with more or better personal benefits?

            Are there other factors?

            scottalanmillerS 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
            • DashrenderD
              Dashrender
              last edited by

              What are the benefits that are so bad? My wife is a college teacher, her benefits are pretty great.

              coliverC scottalanmillerS 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
              • coliverC
                coliver @Dashrender
                last edited by coliver

                @Dashrender said in When We Start to Eat the Teachers: Millerian Societal Collapse:

                What are the benefits that are so bad? My wife is a college teacher, her benefits are pretty great.

                When talking about IT the pay and benefits are generally terrible compared to what someone could be making in the private sector. Your wife may be in an area where private and public sectors pay similarly.

                DashrenderD 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                • DashrenderD
                  Dashrender @coliver
                  last edited by

                  @coliver said in When We Start to Eat the Teachers: Millerian Societal Collapse:

                  @Dashrender said in When We Start to Eat the Teachers: Millerian Societal Collapse:

                  What are the benefits that are so bad? My wife is a college teacher, her benefits are pretty great.

                  When talking about IT the pay and benefits are generally terrible compared to what someone could be making in the private sector. Your wife may be in an area where private and public sectors pay similarly.

                  I was only asking about the benefits... pay and benefits were split out.. so sure, I know the pay can be vastly different from the private sector, but I was wondering about the non pay benefits.....

                  scottalanmillerS 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                  • scottalanmillerS
                    scottalanmiller @Obsolesce
                    last edited by

                    @Tim_G said in When We Start to Eat the Teachers: Millerian Societal Collapse:

                    Are teachers being consumed as a result of there being too many and too few job openings, or are they being consumed due to the lack of pay in their profession or specialty, therefore choosing a different, higher paying job with more or better personal benefits?

                    Are there other factors?

                    Those are kind of the same thing. It's supply and demand, the demand outstrips the supply so the only way to get any teachers is to pay somewhat competitively, which is why many schools can't get any at all. Those that they do get often compete with interns in the workplace.

                    What we have today is high demand in the private sector and low pay in the teaching sector. It's a bad combination.

                    There might be demand from outside of IT skimming them of as well, that's hard to say. But private IT jobs are so lucrative, that only those insanely passionate about teaching would even look at teaching positions.

                    Examples: in any professional peer group for IT (online, in person, etc.) there should be professional educators there every time. There in person to get peer support, to provide academic insight, to bring students, to make professional connections... but how often do we see them? Almost never. I know of none in ML, one in SW, none in any SpiceCorps, Spiceworld, MangoCon, etc. Were they invited? Yes, I did so personally. Do any care about professional development? None that I know. It's just not something that they do.

                    SpiceCorps Waco is actually run by the local college. Could they be bothered to attend any SpiceCorps that they didn't run themselves to see how things run or participate? No, too much effort even though a busy one is nearby. DId they get offers from vendors and SpiceHeads for help? Yup, lots of it. Did they bother? Nope. Have they had a single meeting? Nope. All they've done is block anyone else from starting a group.

                    1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                    • scottalanmillerS
                      scottalanmiller @Dashrender
                      last edited by

                      @Dashrender said in When We Start to Eat the Teachers: Millerian Societal Collapse:

                      What are the benefits that are so bad? My wife is a college teacher, her benefits are pretty great.

                      Does she have set hours to be at work? That's pretty huge. IT at a level where they should be able to teach would have essentially unlimited flexibility in their schedules. Be able to work from home, not need to take sick days when sick, get loads of vacation (that they can take at good times when school is in session), and so forth. No college professor I've known gets those things. They tend to have inflexible hours, inflexible work locations and only get vacations when "laid off" during the worst possible times so that the entire concept of vacation is a very, very different thing making travel essentially useless.

                      The timing of teacher's vacations needs to be considered in their pay. For example, my SIL is a teacher and for her to go to Italy is about $2,000. For me it is $200, because anytime she can travel, the costs are a premium.

                      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • scottalanmillerS
                        scottalanmiller @Dashrender
                        last edited by

                        @Dashrender said in When We Start to Eat the Teachers: Millerian Societal Collapse:

                        @coliver said in When We Start to Eat the Teachers: Millerian Societal Collapse:

                        @Dashrender said in When We Start to Eat the Teachers: Millerian Societal Collapse:

                        What are the benefits that are so bad? My wife is a college teacher, her benefits are pretty great.

                        When talking about IT the pay and benefits are generally terrible compared to what someone could be making in the private sector. Your wife may be in an area where private and public sectors pay similarly.

                        I was only asking about the benefits... pay and benefits were split out.. so sure, I know the pay can be vastly different from the private sector, but I was wondering about the non pay benefits.....

                        What good benefits does she get?

                        DashrenderD 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                        • Mike DavisM
                          Mike Davis
                          last edited by

                          In comes the internship. If employers see that college grads are asking for salaries that don't offer a value to the business, they will hire high school students and teach them themselves.

                          If you’re afraid of getting a rotten apple, don’t go to the barrel. Get it off the tree.

                          scottalanmillerS coliverC 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                          • scottalanmillerS
                            scottalanmiller @Mike Davis
                            last edited by

                            @Mike-Davis said in When We Start to Eat the Teachers: Millerian Societal Collapse:

                            In comes the internship. If employers see that college grads are asking for salaries that don't offer a value to the business, they will hire high school students and teach them themselves.

                            If you’re afraid of getting a rotten apple, don’t go to the barrel. Get it off the tree.

                            Internships fail from the same problems, though. As the senior people in the field get busier and busier, the opportunities for internships get less and less. Internships only work when there are plenty of idle resources to handle them.

                            Mike DavisM 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                            • coliverC
                              coliver @Mike Davis
                              last edited by

                              @Mike-Davis said in When We Start to Eat the Teachers: Millerian Societal Collapse:

                              In comes the internship. If employers see that college grads are asking for salaries that don't offer a value to the business, they will hire high school students and teach them themselves.

                              If you’re afraid of getting a rotten apple, don’t go to the barrel. Get it off the tree.

                              We talked about internship value in a different thread. It works for some people and not others... really depends on the organization.

                              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                              • Mike DavisM
                                Mike Davis @scottalanmiller
                                last edited by

                                @scottalanmiller for anyone that spends a good chunk of their day on Spiceworks or MangoLassi educating others, having an intern is not much additional effort.

                                scottalanmillerS 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                • scottalanmillerS
                                  scottalanmiller @Mike Davis
                                  last edited by

                                  @Mike-Davis said in When We Start to Eat the Teachers: Millerian Societal Collapse:

                                  @scottalanmiller for anyone that spends a good chunk of their day on Spiceworks or MangoLassi educating others, having an intern is not much additional effort.

                                  That's not really true. Having an intern does not normally provide peer review and requires a completely different set of "availabilities."

                                  Mike DavisM 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                  • DashrenderD
                                    Dashrender @scottalanmiller
                                    last edited by

                                    @scottalanmiller said in When We Start to Eat the Teachers: Millerian Societal Collapse:

                                    @Dashrender said in When We Start to Eat the Teachers: Millerian Societal Collapse:

                                    @coliver said in When We Start to Eat the Teachers: Millerian Societal Collapse:

                                    @Dashrender said in When We Start to Eat the Teachers: Millerian Societal Collapse:

                                    What are the benefits that are so bad? My wife is a college teacher, her benefits are pretty great.

                                    When talking about IT the pay and benefits are generally terrible compared to what someone could be making in the private sector. Your wife may be in an area where private and public sectors pay similarly.

                                    I was only asking about the benefits... pay and benefits were split out.. so sure, I know the pay can be vastly different from the private sector, but I was wondering about the non pay benefits.....

                                    What good benefits does she get?

                                    100% premium coverage on a PPO plan from BCBS, 3-4 weeks time off (assigned time) during school year, plus summers. Retirement plan (I don't know the details, but it's like a 401K)

                                    coliverC scottalanmillerS 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                    • Mike DavisM
                                      Mike Davis @scottalanmiller
                                      last edited by

                                      @scottalanmiller said in When We Start to Eat the Teachers: Millerian Societal Collapse:

                                      That's not really true. Having an intern does not normally provide peer review and requires a completely different set of "availabilities."

                                      I understand what you mean by availability in that if you only have an intern for 2 hours a day, they might not be there when you need a password reset done, but what do you mean by "peer review"?

                                      scottalanmillerS 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                      • coliverC
                                        coliver @Dashrender
                                        last edited by

                                        @Dashrender said in When We Start to Eat the Teachers: Millerian Societal Collapse:

                                        @scottalanmiller said in When We Start to Eat the Teachers: Millerian Societal Collapse:

                                        @Dashrender said in When We Start to Eat the Teachers: Millerian Societal Collapse:

                                        @coliver said in When We Start to Eat the Teachers: Millerian Societal Collapse:

                                        @Dashrender said in When We Start to Eat the Teachers: Millerian Societal Collapse:

                                        What are the benefits that are so bad? My wife is a college teacher, her benefits are pretty great.

                                        When talking about IT the pay and benefits are generally terrible compared to what someone could be making in the private sector. Your wife may be in an area where private and public sectors pay similarly.

                                        I was only asking about the benefits... pay and benefits were split out.. so sure, I know the pay can be vastly different from the private sector, but I was wondering about the non pay benefits.....

                                        What good benefits does she get?

                                        100% premium coverage on a PPO plan from BCBS, 3-4 weeks time off (assigned time) during school year, plus summers. Retirement plan (I don't know the details, but it's like a 401K)

                                        Probably a 403b.

                                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                        • scottalanmillerS
                                          scottalanmiller @Dashrender
                                          last edited by

                                          @Dashrender said in When We Start to Eat the Teachers: Millerian Societal Collapse:

                                          100% premium coverage on a PPO plan from BCBS, 3-4 weeks time off (assigned time)

                                          Assigned? Do you mean, spring break kind of things?

                                          DashrenderD 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                          • scottalanmillerS
                                            scottalanmiller @Mike Davis
                                            last edited by

                                            @Mike-Davis said in When We Start to Eat the Teachers: Millerian Societal Collapse:

                                            @scottalanmiller said in When We Start to Eat the Teachers: Millerian Societal Collapse:

                                            That's not really true. Having an intern does not normally provide peer review and requires a completely different set of "availabilities."

                                            I understand what you mean by availability in that if you only have an intern for 2 hours a day, they might not be there when you need a password reset done, but what do you mean by "peer review"?

                                            Yes, or like last night. I put in nearly eight hours on an issue. Posting to ML in between email responses is trivial, I can do it in a second and stop when they are ready for me. An intern would just be ignored every time that the customer had something to be done. So what is really productive for one is useless to the other.

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