Non-IT News Thread
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@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
OK you're literally talking an eye for an eye... gotcha.
Goat for a goat, in my case.
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@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
Spanking is nothing but a risk reward payoff situation.
My parents both spanked the three of us. The last beating I received was at 16. I literally stood there while he hit me with a belt until he swung to low and hit my leg, causing enough pain to involuntarily take a half step forward, yelp, then I was standing up straight again.
It was clear in the end, that he was wiping me until he got some satisfaction, after I yelped, he stopped. I'm sure he realized that beatings/spankings/whatever were worthless at that point.
I'll agree with @scottalanmiller that this was a situation where his anger was out of control. Luckily spankings were a fairly rare thing in my house, I think I got 5 or 6 total while growing up, two of them were pretty savage, luckily neither was ever repeated, and both would be considered child abuse today.
Yup, once you spank, the kid is in power. It's a transfer of power from the adult to the child. It's resorting to physical means when mental isn't working.
I didn't really get spanked at home, but was spanked at school continuously by people that I now realize should be executed (I literally mean that.)
How isn't all punishment a transfer - if one is to agree with you.
It's all about the risk reward setup. Sure, as a very young child, a spanking MIGHT give a longer lasting impression to change behavior, but once you realize that's what the goal of a spanking is, then it's all the same - what's the difference between spanking versus taking the computer away - just risk reward.
To some degree that is true, but you rarely send a kid to a five minute time out or take away something that they have abused it's rarely a direct loss of control or violence. Violence is a different thing completely. Now if you are spanking a kid because he had inflicted violence on someone else and did so after a cooling down period so that the spanking is done as a planned punishment rather than a direct violent response to anger, sure.
I still wouldn't agree with that. I think that would more than likely teach an eye for an eye mentality to the child.
LOL, then how is taking away some privilege any different?
If your child hits another kid are you going to hit your child? That's an eye for an eye. If they hit someone elses child and then you dont let them watch tv its just a consequence of their actions.
What makes an eye for an eye bad, in that situation?
I don't want to tell my child that what they did was wrong and then do the same thing to them.
I think one of the (we'll call them reasons) for hitting your kid after they hit someone else is to show them the pain that they inflicted, and how bad it can be.
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@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
Spanking is nothing but a risk reward payoff situation.
My parents both spanked the three of us. The last beating I received was at 16. I literally stood there while he hit me with a belt until he swung to low and hit my leg, causing enough pain to involuntarily take a half step forward, yelp, then I was standing up straight again.
It was clear in the end, that he was wiping me until he got some satisfaction, after I yelped, he stopped. I'm sure he realized that beatings/spankings/whatever were worthless at that point.
I'll agree with @scottalanmiller that this was a situation where his anger was out of control. Luckily spankings were a fairly rare thing in my house, I think I got 5 or 6 total while growing up, two of them were pretty savage, luckily neither was ever repeated, and both would be considered child abuse today.
Yup, once you spank, the kid is in power. It's a transfer of power from the adult to the child. It's resorting to physical means when mental isn't working.
I didn't really get spanked at home, but was spanked at school continuously by people that I now realize should be executed (I literally mean that.)
How isn't all punishment a transfer - if one is to agree with you.
It's all about the risk reward setup. Sure, as a very young child, a spanking MIGHT give a longer lasting impression to change behavior, but once you realize that's what the goal of a spanking is, then it's all the same - what's the difference between spanking versus taking the computer away - just risk reward.
To some degree that is true, but you rarely send a kid to a five minute time out or take away something that they have abused it's rarely a direct loss of control or violence. Violence is a different thing completely. Now if you are spanking a kid because he had inflicted violence on someone else and did so after a cooling down period so that the spanking is done as a planned punishment rather than a direct violent response to anger, sure.
I still wouldn't agree with that. I think that would more than likely teach an eye for an eye mentality to the child.
LOL, then how is taking away some privilege any different?
If your child hits another kid are you going to hit your child? That's an eye for an eye. If they hit someone elses child and then you dont let them watch tv its just a consequence of their actions.
What makes an eye for an eye bad, in that situation?
I don't want to tell my child that what they did was wrong and then do the same thing to them.
I think one of the (we'll call them reasons) for hitting your kid after they hit someone else is to show them the pain that they inflicted, and how bad it can be.
Right, I would normally, when plausible, recommend being closer to an eye for an eye than a foot for an eye. Unrelated punishments seem more capricious and confusing.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
Spanking is nothing but a risk reward payoff situation.
My parents both spanked the three of us. The last beating I received was at 16. I literally stood there while he hit me with a belt until he swung to low and hit my leg, causing enough pain to involuntarily take a half step forward, yelp, then I was standing up straight again.
It was clear in the end, that he was wiping me until he got some satisfaction, after I yelped, he stopped. I'm sure he realized that beatings/spankings/whatever were worthless at that point.
I'll agree with @scottalanmiller that this was a situation where his anger was out of control. Luckily spankings were a fairly rare thing in my house, I think I got 5 or 6 total while growing up, two of them were pretty savage, luckily neither was ever repeated, and both would be considered child abuse today.
Yup, once you spank, the kid is in power. It's a transfer of power from the adult to the child. It's resorting to physical means when mental isn't working.
I didn't really get spanked at home, but was spanked at school continuously by people that I now realize should be executed (I literally mean that.)
How isn't all punishment a transfer - if one is to agree with you.
It's all about the risk reward setup. Sure, as a very young child, a spanking MIGHT give a longer lasting impression to change behavior, but once you realize that's what the goal of a spanking is, then it's all the same - what's the difference between spanking versus taking the computer away - just risk reward.
To some degree that is true, but you rarely send a kid to a five minute time out or take away something that they have abused it's rarely a direct loss of control or violence. Violence is a different thing completely. Now if you are spanking a kid because he had inflicted violence on someone else and did so after a cooling down period so that the spanking is done as a planned punishment rather than a direct violent response to anger, sure.
I still wouldn't agree with that. I think that would more than likely teach an eye for an eye mentality to the child.
LOL, then how is taking away some privilege any different?
If your child hits another kid are you going to hit your child? That's an eye for an eye. If they hit someone elses child and then you dont let them watch tv its just a consequence of their actions.
What makes an eye for an eye bad, in that situation?
I don't want to tell my child that what they did was wrong and then do the same thing to them.
Interesting, but that rules out ANY punishment, right? All punishments are wrong if not punishments, right?
The common way of describing it is a punishment but to me it's a consequence. I would give them a choice between two outcomes like I stated above. That way if they want to continue doing what they are doing they can, but there will be a consequence.
The average child is cognitively incapable of putting themselves in anothers position until around the age of 7. What is hitting going to achieve?
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@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
Spanking is nothing but a risk reward payoff situation.
My parents both spanked the three of us. The last beating I received was at 16. I literally stood there while he hit me with a belt until he swung to low and hit my leg, causing enough pain to involuntarily take a half step forward, yelp, then I was standing up straight again.
It was clear in the end, that he was wiping me until he got some satisfaction, after I yelped, he stopped. I'm sure he realized that beatings/spankings/whatever were worthless at that point.
I'll agree with @scottalanmiller that this was a situation where his anger was out of control. Luckily spankings were a fairly rare thing in my house, I think I got 5 or 6 total while growing up, two of them were pretty savage, luckily neither was ever repeated, and both would be considered child abuse today.
Yup, once you spank, the kid is in power. It's a transfer of power from the adult to the child. It's resorting to physical means when mental isn't working.
I didn't really get spanked at home, but was spanked at school continuously by people that I now realize should be executed (I literally mean that.)
How isn't all punishment a transfer - if one is to agree with you.
It's all about the risk reward setup. Sure, as a very young child, a spanking MIGHT give a longer lasting impression to change behavior, but once you realize that's what the goal of a spanking is, then it's all the same - what's the difference between spanking versus taking the computer away - just risk reward.
To some degree that is true, but you rarely send a kid to a five minute time out or take away something that they have abused it's rarely a direct loss of control or violence. Violence is a different thing completely. Now if you are spanking a kid because he had inflicted violence on someone else and did so after a cooling down period so that the spanking is done as a planned punishment rather than a direct violent response to anger, sure.
I still wouldn't agree with that. I think that would more than likely teach an eye for an eye mentality to the child.
LOL, then how is taking away some privilege any different?
If your child hits another kid are you going to hit your child? That's an eye for an eye. If they hit someone elses child and then you dont let them watch tv its just a consequence of their actions.
What makes an eye for an eye bad, in that situation?
I don't want to tell my child that what they did was wrong and then do the same thing to them.
Interesting, but that rules out ANY punishment, right? All punishments are wrong if not punishments, right?
The common way of describing it is a punishment but to me it's a consequence. I would give them a choice between two outcomes like I stated above. That way if they want to continue doing what they are doing they can, but there will be a consequence.
All punishment is a consequence. You are making it more like "it's not wrong, it just has a cost." Your way, to me, feels like it is trying to remove the idea of right and wrong but simply attaching a cost to bad behaviour. Want to beat your cousin? $10. Want to stay up late without permission, $1. Want to open your presents early when you find them in the closet, $5.
The idea with a punishment is that we are trying to show that something was wrong. Not that actions have prices that might be worth paying.
Your way makes bullying a kid at school a transaction, just like buying French Fries at McDonald's. The cost of the fries is a consequence of placing the order, but not a punishment.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
Spanking is nothing but a risk reward payoff situation.
My parents both spanked the three of us. The last beating I received was at 16. I literally stood there while he hit me with a belt until he swung to low and hit my leg, causing enough pain to involuntarily take a half step forward, yelp, then I was standing up straight again.
It was clear in the end, that he was wiping me until he got some satisfaction, after I yelped, he stopped. I'm sure he realized that beatings/spankings/whatever were worthless at that point.
I'll agree with @scottalanmiller that this was a situation where his anger was out of control. Luckily spankings were a fairly rare thing in my house, I think I got 5 or 6 total while growing up, two of them were pretty savage, luckily neither was ever repeated, and both would be considered child abuse today.
Yup, once you spank, the kid is in power. It's a transfer of power from the adult to the child. It's resorting to physical means when mental isn't working.
I didn't really get spanked at home, but was spanked at school continuously by people that I now realize should be executed (I literally mean that.)
How isn't all punishment a transfer - if one is to agree with you.
It's all about the risk reward setup. Sure, as a very young child, a spanking MIGHT give a longer lasting impression to change behavior, but once you realize that's what the goal of a spanking is, then it's all the same - what's the difference between spanking versus taking the computer away - just risk reward.
To some degree that is true, but you rarely send a kid to a five minute time out or take away something that they have abused it's rarely a direct loss of control or violence. Violence is a different thing completely. Now if you are spanking a kid because he had inflicted violence on someone else and did so after a cooling down period so that the spanking is done as a planned punishment rather than a direct violent response to anger, sure.
I still wouldn't agree with that. I think that would more than likely teach an eye for an eye mentality to the child.
LOL, then how is taking away some privilege any different?
If your child hits another kid are you going to hit your child? That's an eye for an eye. If they hit someone elses child and then you dont let them watch tv its just a consequence of their actions.
What makes an eye for an eye bad, in that situation?
I don't want to tell my child that what they did was wrong and then do the same thing to them.
Interesting, but that rules out ANY punishment, right? All punishments are wrong if not punishments, right?
The common way of describing it is a punishment but to me it's a consequence. I would give them a choice between two outcomes like I stated above. That way if they want to continue doing what they are doing they can, but there will be a consequence.
All punishment is a consequence. You are making it more like "it's not wrong, it just has a cost." Your way, to me, feels like it is trying to remove the idea of right and wrong but simply attaching a cost to bad behaviour. Want to beat your cousin? $10. Want to stay up late without permission, $1. Want to open your presents early when you find them in the closet, $5.
The idea with a punishment is that we are trying to show that something was wrong. Not that actions have prices that might be worth paying.
Your way makes bullying a kid at school a transaction, just like buying French Fries at McDonald's. The cost of the fries is a consequence of placing the order, but not a punishment.
It's more about holding the child responsible for their own decisions instead of just attempting to prevent them from doing wrong--which is impossible ultimately.
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@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
Spanking is nothing but a risk reward payoff situation.
My parents both spanked the three of us. The last beating I received was at 16. I literally stood there while he hit me with a belt until he swung to low and hit my leg, causing enough pain to involuntarily take a half step forward, yelp, then I was standing up straight again.
It was clear in the end, that he was wiping me until he got some satisfaction, after I yelped, he stopped. I'm sure he realized that beatings/spankings/whatever were worthless at that point.
I'll agree with @scottalanmiller that this was a situation where his anger was out of control. Luckily spankings were a fairly rare thing in my house, I think I got 5 or 6 total while growing up, two of them were pretty savage, luckily neither was ever repeated, and both would be considered child abuse today.
Yup, once you spank, the kid is in power. It's a transfer of power from the adult to the child. It's resorting to physical means when mental isn't working.
I didn't really get spanked at home, but was spanked at school continuously by people that I now realize should be executed (I literally mean that.)
How isn't all punishment a transfer - if one is to agree with you.
It's all about the risk reward setup. Sure, as a very young child, a spanking MIGHT give a longer lasting impression to change behavior, but once you realize that's what the goal of a spanking is, then it's all the same - what's the difference between spanking versus taking the computer away - just risk reward.
To some degree that is true, but you rarely send a kid to a five minute time out or take away something that they have abused it's rarely a direct loss of control or violence. Violence is a different thing completely. Now if you are spanking a kid because he had inflicted violence on someone else and did so after a cooling down period so that the spanking is done as a planned punishment rather than a direct violent response to anger, sure.
I still wouldn't agree with that. I think that would more than likely teach an eye for an eye mentality to the child.
LOL, then how is taking away some privilege any different?
If your child hits another kid are you going to hit your child? That's an eye for an eye. If they hit someone elses child and then you dont let them watch tv its just a consequence of their actions.
What makes an eye for an eye bad, in that situation?
I don't want to tell my child that what they did was wrong and then do the same thing to them.
Interesting, but that rules out ANY punishment, right? All punishments are wrong if not punishments, right?
The common way of describing it is a punishment but to me it's a consequence. I would give them a choice between two outcomes like I stated above. That way if they want to continue doing what they are doing they can, but there will be a consequence.
So what would the consequence be of not doing your homework?
I think the point Scott and I trying to make are that you can't always make it an eye for an eye, which I agree with Scott makes it the most relatable to what wrong was done.
But the reality is that probably more often than not, you will have to fine some unrelated punishment to dish out because there is no eye to eye comparison.
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@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
Spanking is nothing but a risk reward payoff situation.
My parents both spanked the three of us. The last beating I received was at 16. I literally stood there while he hit me with a belt until he swung to low and hit my leg, causing enough pain to involuntarily take a half step forward, yelp, then I was standing up straight again.
It was clear in the end, that he was wiping me until he got some satisfaction, after I yelped, he stopped. I'm sure he realized that beatings/spankings/whatever were worthless at that point.
I'll agree with @scottalanmiller that this was a situation where his anger was out of control. Luckily spankings were a fairly rare thing in my house, I think I got 5 or 6 total while growing up, two of them were pretty savage, luckily neither was ever repeated, and both would be considered child abuse today.
Yup, once you spank, the kid is in power. It's a transfer of power from the adult to the child. It's resorting to physical means when mental isn't working.
I didn't really get spanked at home, but was spanked at school continuously by people that I now realize should be executed (I literally mean that.)
How isn't all punishment a transfer - if one is to agree with you.
It's all about the risk reward setup. Sure, as a very young child, a spanking MIGHT give a longer lasting impression to change behavior, but once you realize that's what the goal of a spanking is, then it's all the same - what's the difference between spanking versus taking the computer away - just risk reward.
To some degree that is true, but you rarely send a kid to a five minute time out or take away something that they have abused it's rarely a direct loss of control or violence. Violence is a different thing completely. Now if you are spanking a kid because he had inflicted violence on someone else and did so after a cooling down period so that the spanking is done as a planned punishment rather than a direct violent response to anger, sure.
I still wouldn't agree with that. I think that would more than likely teach an eye for an eye mentality to the child.
LOL, then how is taking away some privilege any different?
If your child hits another kid are you going to hit your child? That's an eye for an eye. If they hit someone elses child and then you dont let them watch tv its just a consequence of their actions.
What makes an eye for an eye bad, in that situation?
I don't want to tell my child that what they did was wrong and then do the same thing to them.
Interesting, but that rules out ANY punishment, right? All punishments are wrong if not punishments, right?
The common way of describing it is a punishment but to me it's a consequence. I would give them a choice between two outcomes like I stated above. That way if they want to continue doing what they are doing they can, but there will be a consequence.
All punishment is a consequence. You are making it more like "it's not wrong, it just has a cost." Your way, to me, feels like it is trying to remove the idea of right and wrong but simply attaching a cost to bad behaviour. Want to beat your cousin? $10. Want to stay up late without permission, $1. Want to open your presents early when you find them in the closet, $5.
The idea with a punishment is that we are trying to show that something was wrong. Not that actions have prices that might be worth paying.
Your way makes bullying a kid at school a transaction, just like buying French Fries at McDonald's. The cost of the fries is a consequence of placing the order, but not a punishment.
It's more about holding the child responsible for their own decisions instead of just attempting to prevent them from doing wrong--which is impossible ultimately.
But wouldn't an eye for an eye make more sense for your goals, then?
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@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
Spanking is nothing but a risk reward payoff situation.
My parents both spanked the three of us. The last beating I received was at 16. I literally stood there while he hit me with a belt until he swung to low and hit my leg, causing enough pain to involuntarily take a half step forward, yelp, then I was standing up straight again.
It was clear in the end, that he was wiping me until he got some satisfaction, after I yelped, he stopped. I'm sure he realized that beatings/spankings/whatever were worthless at that point.
I'll agree with @scottalanmiller that this was a situation where his anger was out of control. Luckily spankings were a fairly rare thing in my house, I think I got 5 or 6 total while growing up, two of them were pretty savage, luckily neither was ever repeated, and both would be considered child abuse today.
Yup, once you spank, the kid is in power. It's a transfer of power from the adult to the child. It's resorting to physical means when mental isn't working.
I didn't really get spanked at home, but was spanked at school continuously by people that I now realize should be executed (I literally mean that.)
How isn't all punishment a transfer - if one is to agree with you.
It's all about the risk reward setup. Sure, as a very young child, a spanking MIGHT give a longer lasting impression to change behavior, but once you realize that's what the goal of a spanking is, then it's all the same - what's the difference between spanking versus taking the computer away - just risk reward.
To some degree that is true, but you rarely send a kid to a five minute time out or take away something that they have abused it's rarely a direct loss of control or violence. Violence is a different thing completely. Now if you are spanking a kid because he had inflicted violence on someone else and did so after a cooling down period so that the spanking is done as a planned punishment rather than a direct violent response to anger, sure.
I still wouldn't agree with that. I think that would more than likely teach an eye for an eye mentality to the child.
LOL, then how is taking away some privilege any different?
If your child hits another kid are you going to hit your child? That's an eye for an eye. If they hit someone elses child and then you dont let them watch tv its just a consequence of their actions.
What makes an eye for an eye bad, in that situation?
I don't want to tell my child that what they did was wrong and then do the same thing to them.
Interesting, but that rules out ANY punishment, right? All punishments are wrong if not punishments, right?
The common way of describing it is a punishment but to me it's a consequence. I would give them a choice between two outcomes like I stated above. That way if they want to continue doing what they are doing they can, but there will be a consequence.
So what would the consequence be of not doing your homework?
I think the point Scott and I trying to make are that you can't always make it an eye for an eye, which I agree with Scott makes it the most relatable to what wrong was done.
But the reality is that probably more often than not, you will have to fine some unrelated punishment to dish out because there is no eye to eye comparison.
I'm against an eye to eye mentality
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@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
Spanking is nothing but a risk reward payoff situation.
My parents both spanked the three of us. The last beating I received was at 16. I literally stood there while he hit me with a belt until he swung to low and hit my leg, causing enough pain to involuntarily take a half step forward, yelp, then I was standing up straight again.
It was clear in the end, that he was wiping me until he got some satisfaction, after I yelped, he stopped. I'm sure he realized that beatings/spankings/whatever were worthless at that point.
I'll agree with @scottalanmiller that this was a situation where his anger was out of control. Luckily spankings were a fairly rare thing in my house, I think I got 5 or 6 total while growing up, two of them were pretty savage, luckily neither was ever repeated, and both would be considered child abuse today.
Yup, once you spank, the kid is in power. It's a transfer of power from the adult to the child. It's resorting to physical means when mental isn't working.
I didn't really get spanked at home, but was spanked at school continuously by people that I now realize should be executed (I literally mean that.)
How isn't all punishment a transfer - if one is to agree with you.
It's all about the risk reward setup. Sure, as a very young child, a spanking MIGHT give a longer lasting impression to change behavior, but once you realize that's what the goal of a spanking is, then it's all the same - what's the difference between spanking versus taking the computer away - just risk reward.
To some degree that is true, but you rarely send a kid to a five minute time out or take away something that they have abused it's rarely a direct loss of control or violence. Violence is a different thing completely. Now if you are spanking a kid because he had inflicted violence on someone else and did so after a cooling down period so that the spanking is done as a planned punishment rather than a direct violent response to anger, sure.
I still wouldn't agree with that. I think that would more than likely teach an eye for an eye mentality to the child.
LOL, then how is taking away some privilege any different?
If your child hits another kid are you going to hit your child? That's an eye for an eye. If they hit someone elses child and then you dont let them watch tv its just a consequence of their actions.
What makes an eye for an eye bad, in that situation?
I don't want to tell my child that what they did was wrong and then do the same thing to them.
Interesting, but that rules out ANY punishment, right? All punishments are wrong if not punishments, right?
The common way of describing it is a punishment but to me it's a consequence. I would give them a choice between two outcomes like I stated above. That way if they want to continue doing what they are doing they can, but there will be a consequence.
So what would the consequence be of not doing your homework?
I think the point Scott and I trying to make are that you can't always make it an eye for an eye, which I agree with Scott makes it the most relatable to what wrong was done.
But the reality is that probably more often than not, you will have to fine some unrelated punishment to dish out because there is no eye to eye comparison.
Right. And if you only worked with the cost model, the "consequence" of not doing your homework is just a bad grade. Which isn't actually a consequence since there is no cost involved. Who cares if you get bad grades, nothing in life uses your grades.
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@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
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@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
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Spanking is nothing but a risk reward payoff situation.
My parents both spanked the three of us. The last beating I received was at 16. I literally stood there while he hit me with a belt until he swung to low and hit my leg, causing enough pain to involuntarily take a half step forward, yelp, then I was standing up straight again.
It was clear in the end, that he was wiping me until he got some satisfaction, after I yelped, he stopped. I'm sure he realized that beatings/spankings/whatever were worthless at that point.
I'll agree with @scottalanmiller that this was a situation where his anger was out of control. Luckily spankings were a fairly rare thing in my house, I think I got 5 or 6 total while growing up, two of them were pretty savage, luckily neither was ever repeated, and both would be considered child abuse today.
Yup, once you spank, the kid is in power. It's a transfer of power from the adult to the child. It's resorting to physical means when mental isn't working.
I didn't really get spanked at home, but was spanked at school continuously by people that I now realize should be executed (I literally mean that.)
How isn't all punishment a transfer - if one is to agree with you.
It's all about the risk reward setup. Sure, as a very young child, a spanking MIGHT give a longer lasting impression to change behavior, but once you realize that's what the goal of a spanking is, then it's all the same - what's the difference between spanking versus taking the computer away - just risk reward.
To some degree that is true, but you rarely send a kid to a five minute time out or take away something that they have abused it's rarely a direct loss of control or violence. Violence is a different thing completely. Now if you are spanking a kid because he had inflicted violence on someone else and did so after a cooling down period so that the spanking is done as a planned punishment rather than a direct violent response to anger, sure.
I still wouldn't agree with that. I think that would more than likely teach an eye for an eye mentality to the child.
LOL, then how is taking away some privilege any different?
If your child hits another kid are you going to hit your child? That's an eye for an eye. If they hit someone elses child and then you dont let them watch tv its just a consequence of their actions.
What makes an eye for an eye bad, in that situation?
I don't want to tell my child that what they did was wrong and then do the same thing to them.
Interesting, but that rules out ANY punishment, right? All punishments are wrong if not punishments, right?
The common way of describing it is a punishment but to me it's a consequence. I would give them a choice between two outcomes like I stated above. That way if they want to continue doing what they are doing they can, but there will be a consequence.
All punishment is a consequence. You are making it more like "it's not wrong, it just has a cost." Your way, to me, feels like it is trying to remove the idea of right and wrong but simply attaching a cost to bad behaviour. Want to beat your cousin? $10. Want to stay up late without permission, $1. Want to open your presents early when you find them in the closet, $5.
The idea with a punishment is that we are trying to show that something was wrong. Not that actions have prices that might be worth paying.
Your way makes bullying a kid at school a transaction, just like buying French Fries at McDonald's. The cost of the fries is a consequence of placing the order, but not a punishment.
It's more about holding the child responsible for their own decisions instead of just attempting to prevent them from doing wrong--which is impossible ultimately.
You're assuming that are catching them in the act of not doing what you want them to do. What about all of the acts you discover after the fact?
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
Spanking is nothing but a risk reward payoff situation.
My parents both spanked the three of us. The last beating I received was at 16. I literally stood there while he hit me with a belt until he swung to low and hit my leg, causing enough pain to involuntarily take a half step forward, yelp, then I was standing up straight again.
It was clear in the end, that he was wiping me until he got some satisfaction, after I yelped, he stopped. I'm sure he realized that beatings/spankings/whatever were worthless at that point.
I'll agree with @scottalanmiller that this was a situation where his anger was out of control. Luckily spankings were a fairly rare thing in my house, I think I got 5 or 6 total while growing up, two of them were pretty savage, luckily neither was ever repeated, and both would be considered child abuse today.
Yup, once you spank, the kid is in power. It's a transfer of power from the adult to the child. It's resorting to physical means when mental isn't working.
I didn't really get spanked at home, but was spanked at school continuously by people that I now realize should be executed (I literally mean that.)
How isn't all punishment a transfer - if one is to agree with you.
It's all about the risk reward setup. Sure, as a very young child, a spanking MIGHT give a longer lasting impression to change behavior, but once you realize that's what the goal of a spanking is, then it's all the same - what's the difference between spanking versus taking the computer away - just risk reward.
To some degree that is true, but you rarely send a kid to a five minute time out or take away something that they have abused it's rarely a direct loss of control or violence. Violence is a different thing completely. Now if you are spanking a kid because he had inflicted violence on someone else and did so after a cooling down period so that the spanking is done as a planned punishment rather than a direct violent response to anger, sure.
I still wouldn't agree with that. I think that would more than likely teach an eye for an eye mentality to the child.
LOL, then how is taking away some privilege any different?
If your child hits another kid are you going to hit your child? That's an eye for an eye. If they hit someone elses child and then you dont let them watch tv its just a consequence of their actions.
What makes an eye for an eye bad, in that situation?
I don't want to tell my child that what they did was wrong and then do the same thing to them.
Interesting, but that rules out ANY punishment, right? All punishments are wrong if not punishments, right?
The common way of describing it is a punishment but to me it's a consequence. I would give them a choice between two outcomes like I stated above. That way if they want to continue doing what they are doing they can, but there will be a consequence.
All punishment is a consequence. You are making it more like "it's not wrong, it just has a cost." Your way, to me, feels like it is trying to remove the idea of right and wrong but simply attaching a cost to bad behaviour. Want to beat your cousin? $10. Want to stay up late without permission, $1. Want to open your presents early when you find them in the closet, $5.
The idea with a punishment is that we are trying to show that something was wrong. Not that actions have prices that might be worth paying.
Your way makes bullying a kid at school a transaction, just like buying French Fries at McDonald's. The cost of the fries is a consequence of placing the order, but not a punishment.
It's more about holding the child responsible for their own decisions instead of just attempting to prevent them from doing wrong--which is impossible ultimately.
But wouldn't an eye for an eye make more sense for your goals, then?
No because I'm not punishing them, they are punishing themselves. I want to give them the opportunity to be self-governing. I won't be around forever.
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@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
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@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
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@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
Spanking is nothing but a risk reward payoff situation.
My parents both spanked the three of us. The last beating I received was at 16. I literally stood there while he hit me with a belt until he swung to low and hit my leg, causing enough pain to involuntarily take a half step forward, yelp, then I was standing up straight again.
It was clear in the end, that he was wiping me until he got some satisfaction, after I yelped, he stopped. I'm sure he realized that beatings/spankings/whatever were worthless at that point.
I'll agree with @scottalanmiller that this was a situation where his anger was out of control. Luckily spankings were a fairly rare thing in my house, I think I got 5 or 6 total while growing up, two of them were pretty savage, luckily neither was ever repeated, and both would be considered child abuse today.
Yup, once you spank, the kid is in power. It's a transfer of power from the adult to the child. It's resorting to physical means when mental isn't working.
I didn't really get spanked at home, but was spanked at school continuously by people that I now realize should be executed (I literally mean that.)
How isn't all punishment a transfer - if one is to agree with you.
It's all about the risk reward setup. Sure, as a very young child, a spanking MIGHT give a longer lasting impression to change behavior, but once you realize that's what the goal of a spanking is, then it's all the same - what's the difference between spanking versus taking the computer away - just risk reward.
To some degree that is true, but you rarely send a kid to a five minute time out or take away something that they have abused it's rarely a direct loss of control or violence. Violence is a different thing completely. Now if you are spanking a kid because he had inflicted violence on someone else and did so after a cooling down period so that the spanking is done as a planned punishment rather than a direct violent response to anger, sure.
I still wouldn't agree with that. I think that would more than likely teach an eye for an eye mentality to the child.
LOL, then how is taking away some privilege any different?
If your child hits another kid are you going to hit your child? That's an eye for an eye. If they hit someone elses child and then you dont let them watch tv its just a consequence of their actions.
What makes an eye for an eye bad, in that situation?
I don't want to tell my child that what they did was wrong and then do the same thing to them.
Interesting, but that rules out ANY punishment, right? All punishments are wrong if not punishments, right?
The common way of describing it is a punishment but to me it's a consequence. I would give them a choice between two outcomes like I stated above. That way if they want to continue doing what they are doing they can, but there will be a consequence.
All punishment is a consequence. You are making it more like "it's not wrong, it just has a cost." Your way, to me, feels like it is trying to remove the idea of right and wrong but simply attaching a cost to bad behaviour. Want to beat your cousin? $10. Want to stay up late without permission, $1. Want to open your presents early when you find them in the closet, $5.
The idea with a punishment is that we are trying to show that something was wrong. Not that actions have prices that might be worth paying.
Your way makes bullying a kid at school a transaction, just like buying French Fries at McDonald's. The cost of the fries is a consequence of placing the order, but not a punishment.
It's more about holding the child responsible for their own decisions instead of just attempting to prevent them from doing wrong--which is impossible ultimately.
You're assuming that are catching them in the act of not doing what you want them to do. What about all of the acts you discover after the fact?
Which is the vast majority.
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@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
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@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
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@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
Spanking is nothing but a risk reward payoff situation.
My parents both spanked the three of us. The last beating I received was at 16. I literally stood there while he hit me with a belt until he swung to low and hit my leg, causing enough pain to involuntarily take a half step forward, yelp, then I was standing up straight again.
It was clear in the end, that he was wiping me until he got some satisfaction, after I yelped, he stopped. I'm sure he realized that beatings/spankings/whatever were worthless at that point.
I'll agree with @scottalanmiller that this was a situation where his anger was out of control. Luckily spankings were a fairly rare thing in my house, I think I got 5 or 6 total while growing up, two of them were pretty savage, luckily neither was ever repeated, and both would be considered child abuse today.
Yup, once you spank, the kid is in power. It's a transfer of power from the adult to the child. It's resorting to physical means when mental isn't working.
I didn't really get spanked at home, but was spanked at school continuously by people that I now realize should be executed (I literally mean that.)
How isn't all punishment a transfer - if one is to agree with you.
It's all about the risk reward setup. Sure, as a very young child, a spanking MIGHT give a longer lasting impression to change behavior, but once you realize that's what the goal of a spanking is, then it's all the same - what's the difference between spanking versus taking the computer away - just risk reward.
To some degree that is true, but you rarely send a kid to a five minute time out or take away something that they have abused it's rarely a direct loss of control or violence. Violence is a different thing completely. Now if you are spanking a kid because he had inflicted violence on someone else and did so after a cooling down period so that the spanking is done as a planned punishment rather than a direct violent response to anger, sure.
I still wouldn't agree with that. I think that would more than likely teach an eye for an eye mentality to the child.
LOL, then how is taking away some privilege any different?
If your child hits another kid are you going to hit your child? That's an eye for an eye. If they hit someone elses child and then you dont let them watch tv its just a consequence of their actions.
What makes an eye for an eye bad, in that situation?
I don't want to tell my child that what they did was wrong and then do the same thing to them.
Interesting, but that rules out ANY punishment, right? All punishments are wrong if not punishments, right?
The common way of describing it is a punishment but to me it's a consequence. I would give them a choice between two outcomes like I stated above. That way if they want to continue doing what they are doing they can, but there will be a consequence.
All punishment is a consequence. You are making it more like "it's not wrong, it just has a cost." Your way, to me, feels like it is trying to remove the idea of right and wrong but simply attaching a cost to bad behaviour. Want to beat your cousin? $10. Want to stay up late without permission, $1. Want to open your presents early when you find them in the closet, $5.
The idea with a punishment is that we are trying to show that something was wrong. Not that actions have prices that might be worth paying.
Your way makes bullying a kid at school a transaction, just like buying French Fries at McDonald's. The cost of the fries is a consequence of placing the order, but not a punishment.
It's more about holding the child responsible for their own decisions instead of just attempting to prevent them from doing wrong--which is impossible ultimately.
But wouldn't an eye for an eye make more sense for your goals, then?
No because I'm not punishing them, they are punishing themselves. I want to give them the opportunity to be self-governing. I won't be around forever.
How do you make it "punishing themselves"? You still have to be there to punish them. You are making it a cost, and a cost that only gets paid if you catch them.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
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@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
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@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
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@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
Spanking is nothing but a risk reward payoff situation.
My parents both spanked the three of us. The last beating I received was at 16. I literally stood there while he hit me with a belt until he swung to low and hit my leg, causing enough pain to involuntarily take a half step forward, yelp, then I was standing up straight again.
It was clear in the end, that he was wiping me until he got some satisfaction, after I yelped, he stopped. I'm sure he realized that beatings/spankings/whatever were worthless at that point.
I'll agree with @scottalanmiller that this was a situation where his anger was out of control. Luckily spankings were a fairly rare thing in my house, I think I got 5 or 6 total while growing up, two of them were pretty savage, luckily neither was ever repeated, and both would be considered child abuse today.
Yup, once you spank, the kid is in power. It's a transfer of power from the adult to the child. It's resorting to physical means when mental isn't working.
I didn't really get spanked at home, but was spanked at school continuously by people that I now realize should be executed (I literally mean that.)
How isn't all punishment a transfer - if one is to agree with you.
It's all about the risk reward setup. Sure, as a very young child, a spanking MIGHT give a longer lasting impression to change behavior, but once you realize that's what the goal of a spanking is, then it's all the same - what's the difference between spanking versus taking the computer away - just risk reward.
To some degree that is true, but you rarely send a kid to a five minute time out or take away something that they have abused it's rarely a direct loss of control or violence. Violence is a different thing completely. Now if you are spanking a kid because he had inflicted violence on someone else and did so after a cooling down period so that the spanking is done as a planned punishment rather than a direct violent response to anger, sure.
I still wouldn't agree with that. I think that would more than likely teach an eye for an eye mentality to the child.
LOL, then how is taking away some privilege any different?
If your child hits another kid are you going to hit your child? That's an eye for an eye. If they hit someone elses child and then you dont let them watch tv its just a consequence of their actions.
What makes an eye for an eye bad, in that situation?
I don't want to tell my child that what they did was wrong and then do the same thing to them.
Interesting, but that rules out ANY punishment, right? All punishments are wrong if not punishments, right?
The common way of describing it is a punishment but to me it's a consequence. I would give them a choice between two outcomes like I stated above. That way if they want to continue doing what they are doing they can, but there will be a consequence.
All punishment is a consequence. You are making it more like "it's not wrong, it just has a cost." Your way, to me, feels like it is trying to remove the idea of right and wrong but simply attaching a cost to bad behaviour. Want to beat your cousin? $10. Want to stay up late without permission, $1. Want to open your presents early when you find them in the closet, $5.
The idea with a punishment is that we are trying to show that something was wrong. Not that actions have prices that might be worth paying.
Your way makes bullying a kid at school a transaction, just like buying French Fries at McDonald's. The cost of the fries is a consequence of placing the order, but not a punishment.
It's more about holding the child responsible for their own decisions instead of just attempting to prevent them from doing wrong--which is impossible ultimately.
But wouldn't an eye for an eye make more sense for your goals, then?
No because I'm not punishing them, they are punishing themselves. I want to give them the opportunity to be self-governing. I won't be around forever.
How do you make it "punishing themselves"? You still have to be there to punish them. You are making it a cost, and a cost that only gets paid if you catch them.
They are deciding the consequence. The cell phone at the table example: The consequence is either, not using the cell now or you can use it now and not use it for an entire day.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
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@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
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@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
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@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
Spanking is nothing but a risk reward payoff situation.
My parents both spanked the three of us. The last beating I received was at 16. I literally stood there while he hit me with a belt until he swung to low and hit my leg, causing enough pain to involuntarily take a half step forward, yelp, then I was standing up straight again.
It was clear in the end, that he was wiping me until he got some satisfaction, after I yelped, he stopped. I'm sure he realized that beatings/spankings/whatever were worthless at that point.
I'll agree with @scottalanmiller that this was a situation where his anger was out of control. Luckily spankings were a fairly rare thing in my house, I think I got 5 or 6 total while growing up, two of them were pretty savage, luckily neither was ever repeated, and both would be considered child abuse today.
Yup, once you spank, the kid is in power. It's a transfer of power from the adult to the child. It's resorting to physical means when mental isn't working.
I didn't really get spanked at home, but was spanked at school continuously by people that I now realize should be executed (I literally mean that.)
How isn't all punishment a transfer - if one is to agree with you.
It's all about the risk reward setup. Sure, as a very young child, a spanking MIGHT give a longer lasting impression to change behavior, but once you realize that's what the goal of a spanking is, then it's all the same - what's the difference between spanking versus taking the computer away - just risk reward.
To some degree that is true, but you rarely send a kid to a five minute time out or take away something that they have abused it's rarely a direct loss of control or violence. Violence is a different thing completely. Now if you are spanking a kid because he had inflicted violence on someone else and did so after a cooling down period so that the spanking is done as a planned punishment rather than a direct violent response to anger, sure.
I still wouldn't agree with that. I think that would more than likely teach an eye for an eye mentality to the child.
LOL, then how is taking away some privilege any different?
If your child hits another kid are you going to hit your child? That's an eye for an eye. If they hit someone elses child and then you dont let them watch tv its just a consequence of their actions.
What makes an eye for an eye bad, in that situation?
I don't want to tell my child that what they did was wrong and then do the same thing to them.
Interesting, but that rules out ANY punishment, right? All punishments are wrong if not punishments, right?
The common way of describing it is a punishment but to me it's a consequence. I would give them a choice between two outcomes like I stated above. That way if they want to continue doing what they are doing they can, but there will be a consequence.
All punishment is a consequence. You are making it more like "it's not wrong, it just has a cost." Your way, to me, feels like it is trying to remove the idea of right and wrong but simply attaching a cost to bad behaviour. Want to beat your cousin? $10. Want to stay up late without permission, $1. Want to open your presents early when you find them in the closet, $5.
The idea with a punishment is that we are trying to show that something was wrong. Not that actions have prices that might be worth paying.
Your way makes bullying a kid at school a transaction, just like buying French Fries at McDonald's. The cost of the fries is a consequence of placing the order, but not a punishment.
It's more about holding the child responsible for their own decisions instead of just attempting to prevent them from doing wrong--which is impossible ultimately.
But wouldn't an eye for an eye make more sense for your goals, then?
No because I'm not punishing them, they are punishing themselves. I want to give them the opportunity to be self-governing. I won't be around forever.
How do you make it "punishing themselves"? You still have to be there to punish them. You are making it a cost, and a cost that only gets paid if you catch them.
And even worst, it's definitely a risk reward setup... you can keep texting (but we don't know for how long) and the phone will be removed for x period of time... is it worth the risk? yep so keep texting.
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@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
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@wirestyle22 said in Non-IT News Thread:
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@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
Spanking is nothing but a risk reward payoff situation.
My parents both spanked the three of us. The last beating I received was at 16. I literally stood there while he hit me with a belt until he swung to low and hit my leg, causing enough pain to involuntarily take a half step forward, yelp, then I was standing up straight again.
It was clear in the end, that he was wiping me until he got some satisfaction, after I yelped, he stopped. I'm sure he realized that beatings/spankings/whatever were worthless at that point.
I'll agree with @scottalanmiller that this was a situation where his anger was out of control. Luckily spankings were a fairly rare thing in my house, I think I got 5 or 6 total while growing up, two of them were pretty savage, luckily neither was ever repeated, and both would be considered child abuse today.
Yup, once you spank, the kid is in power. It's a transfer of power from the adult to the child. It's resorting to physical means when mental isn't working.
I didn't really get spanked at home, but was spanked at school continuously by people that I now realize should be executed (I literally mean that.)
How isn't all punishment a transfer - if one is to agree with you.
It's all about the risk reward setup. Sure, as a very young child, a spanking MIGHT give a longer lasting impression to change behavior, but once you realize that's what the goal of a spanking is, then it's all the same - what's the difference between spanking versus taking the computer away - just risk reward.
To some degree that is true, but you rarely send a kid to a five minute time out or take away something that they have abused it's rarely a direct loss of control or violence. Violence is a different thing completely. Now if you are spanking a kid because he had inflicted violence on someone else and did so after a cooling down period so that the spanking is done as a planned punishment rather than a direct violent response to anger, sure.
I still wouldn't agree with that. I think that would more than likely teach an eye for an eye mentality to the child.
LOL, then how is taking away some privilege any different?
If your child hits another kid are you going to hit your child? That's an eye for an eye. If they hit someone elses child and then you dont let them watch tv its just a consequence of their actions.
What makes an eye for an eye bad, in that situation?
I don't want to tell my child that what they did was wrong and then do the same thing to them.
Interesting, but that rules out ANY punishment, right? All punishments are wrong if not punishments, right?
The common way of describing it is a punishment but to me it's a consequence. I would give them a choice between two outcomes like I stated above. That way if they want to continue doing what they are doing they can, but there will be a consequence.
All punishment is a consequence. You are making it more like "it's not wrong, it just has a cost." Your way, to me, feels like it is trying to remove the idea of right and wrong but simply attaching a cost to bad behaviour. Want to beat your cousin? $10. Want to stay up late without permission, $1. Want to open your presents early when you find them in the closet, $5.
The idea with a punishment is that we are trying to show that something was wrong. Not that actions have prices that might be worth paying.
Your way makes bullying a kid at school a transaction, just like buying French Fries at McDonald's. The cost of the fries is a consequence of placing the order, but not a punishment.
It's more about holding the child responsible for their own decisions instead of just attempting to prevent them from doing wrong--which is impossible ultimately.
But wouldn't an eye for an eye make more sense for your goals, then?
No because I'm not punishing them, they are punishing themselves. I want to give them the opportunity to be self-governing. I won't be around forever.
How do you make it "punishing themselves"? You still have to be there to punish them. You are making it a cost, and a cost that only gets paid if you catch them.
They are deciding the consequence. The cell phone at the table example: The consequence is either, not using the cell now or you can use it now and not use it for an entire day.
So you catch them using a cell phone that they weren't allowed to use. What is the punishment that they decided on in that case?
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Spanking is nothing but a risk reward payoff situation.
My parents both spanked the three of us. The last beating I received was at 16. I literally stood there while he hit me with a belt until he swung to low and hit my leg, causing enough pain to involuntarily take a half step forward, yelp, then I was standing up straight again.
It was clear in the end, that he was wiping me until he got some satisfaction, after I yelped, he stopped. I'm sure he realized that beatings/spankings/whatever were worthless at that point.
I'll agree with @scottalanmiller that this was a situation where his anger was out of control. Luckily spankings were a fairly rare thing in my house, I think I got 5 or 6 total while growing up, two of them were pretty savage, luckily neither was ever repeated, and both would be considered child abuse today.
Yup, once you spank, the kid is in power. It's a transfer of power from the adult to the child. It's resorting to physical means when mental isn't working.
I didn't really get spanked at home, but was spanked at school continuously by people that I now realize should be executed (I literally mean that.)
How isn't all punishment a transfer - if one is to agree with you.
It's all about the risk reward setup. Sure, as a very young child, a spanking MIGHT give a longer lasting impression to change behavior, but once you realize that's what the goal of a spanking is, then it's all the same - what's the difference between spanking versus taking the computer away - just risk reward.
To some degree that is true, but you rarely send a kid to a five minute time out or take away something that they have abused it's rarely a direct loss of control or violence. Violence is a different thing completely. Now if you are spanking a kid because he had inflicted violence on someone else and did so after a cooling down period so that the spanking is done as a planned punishment rather than a direct violent response to anger, sure.
I still wouldn't agree with that. I think that would more than likely teach an eye for an eye mentality to the child.
LOL, then how is taking away some privilege any different?
If your child hits another kid are you going to hit your child? That's an eye for an eye. If they hit someone elses child and then you dont let them watch tv its just a consequence of their actions.
What makes an eye for an eye bad, in that situation?
I don't want to tell my child that what they did was wrong and then do the same thing to them.
Interesting, but that rules out ANY punishment, right? All punishments are wrong if not punishments, right?
The common way of describing it is a punishment but to me it's a consequence. I would give them a choice between two outcomes like I stated above. That way if they want to continue doing what they are doing they can, but there will be a consequence.
All punishment is a consequence. You are making it more like "it's not wrong, it just has a cost." Your way, to me, feels like it is trying to remove the idea of right and wrong but simply attaching a cost to bad behaviour. Want to beat your cousin? $10. Want to stay up late without permission, $1. Want to open your presents early when you find them in the closet, $5.
The idea with a punishment is that we are trying to show that something was wrong. Not that actions have prices that might be worth paying.
Your way makes bullying a kid at school a transaction, just like buying French Fries at McDonald's. The cost of the fries is a consequence of placing the order, but not a punishment.
It's more about holding the child responsible for their own decisions instead of just attempting to prevent them from doing wrong--which is impossible ultimately.
But wouldn't an eye for an eye make more sense for your goals, then?
No because I'm not punishing them, they are punishing themselves. I want to give them the opportunity to be self-governing. I won't be around forever.
How do you make it "punishing themselves"? You still have to be there to punish them. You are making it a cost, and a cost that only gets paid if you catch them.
They are deciding the consequence. The cell phone at the table example: The consequence is either, not using the cell now or you can use it now and not use it for an entire day.
So you catch them using a cell phone that they weren't allowed to use. What is the punishment that they decided on in that case?
Right - the discovered after the fact situation..
which is more often than not. -
You know if parents were allowed to beat their kids without assholes getting involved Steam wouldn't be down right now...
#beatyourkids
#teachconsequences -
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Spanking is nothing but a risk reward payoff situation.
My parents both spanked the three of us. The last beating I received was at 16. I literally stood there while he hit me with a belt until he swung to low and hit my leg, causing enough pain to involuntarily take a half step forward, yelp, then I was standing up straight again.
It was clear in the end, that he was wiping me until he got some satisfaction, after I yelped, he stopped. I'm sure he realized that beatings/spankings/whatever were worthless at that point.
I'll agree with @scottalanmiller that this was a situation where his anger was out of control. Luckily spankings were a fairly rare thing in my house, I think I got 5 or 6 total while growing up, two of them were pretty savage, luckily neither was ever repeated, and both would be considered child abuse today.
Yup, once you spank, the kid is in power. It's a transfer of power from the adult to the child. It's resorting to physical means when mental isn't working.
I didn't really get spanked at home, but was spanked at school continuously by people that I now realize should be executed (I literally mean that.)
How isn't all punishment a transfer - if one is to agree with you.
It's all about the risk reward setup. Sure, as a very young child, a spanking MIGHT give a longer lasting impression to change behavior, but once you realize that's what the goal of a spanking is, then it's all the same - what's the difference between spanking versus taking the computer away - just risk reward.
To some degree that is true, but you rarely send a kid to a five minute time out or take away something that they have abused it's rarely a direct loss of control or violence. Violence is a different thing completely. Now if you are spanking a kid because he had inflicted violence on someone else and did so after a cooling down period so that the spanking is done as a planned punishment rather than a direct violent response to anger, sure.
I still wouldn't agree with that. I think that would more than likely teach an eye for an eye mentality to the child.
LOL, then how is taking away some privilege any different?
If your child hits another kid are you going to hit your child? That's an eye for an eye. If they hit someone elses child and then you dont let them watch tv its just a consequence of their actions.
What makes an eye for an eye bad, in that situation?
I don't want to tell my child that what they did was wrong and then do the same thing to them.
Interesting, but that rules out ANY punishment, right? All punishments are wrong if not punishments, right?
The common way of describing it is a punishment but to me it's a consequence. I would give them a choice between two outcomes like I stated above. That way if they want to continue doing what they are doing they can, but there will be a consequence.
All punishment is a consequence. You are making it more like "it's not wrong, it just has a cost." Your way, to me, feels like it is trying to remove the idea of right and wrong but simply attaching a cost to bad behaviour. Want to beat your cousin? $10. Want to stay up late without permission, $1. Want to open your presents early when you find them in the closet, $5.
The idea with a punishment is that we are trying to show that something was wrong. Not that actions have prices that might be worth paying.
Your way makes bullying a kid at school a transaction, just like buying French Fries at McDonald's. The cost of the fries is a consequence of placing the order, but not a punishment.
It's more about holding the child responsible for their own decisions instead of just attempting to prevent them from doing wrong--which is impossible ultimately.
But wouldn't an eye for an eye make more sense for your goals, then?
No because I'm not punishing them, they are punishing themselves. I want to give them the opportunity to be self-governing. I won't be around forever.
How do you make it "punishing themselves"? You still have to be there to punish them. You are making it a cost, and a cost that only gets paid if you catch them.
And even worst, it's definitely a risk reward setup... you can keep texting (but we don't know for how long) and the phone will be removed for x period of time... is it worth the risk? yep so keep texting.
The idea "normally" is to increase punishment for doing something bad until it's not worth doing anymore. Bullying a kid at school? First punishment doesn't stop them, you turn it up. And you keep turning it up until they stop, period. Hurting people should never have a "cost" that you are willing to just pay to have fun hurting other people.
