Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?
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@Breffni-Potter said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
https://community.spiceworks.com/topic/1815633-question-for-it-consultants
Scott, I'm typing slower than you, you are not allowed to post there yet.
and this guy nailed it already..
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
If you cannot get past this concept, we're done.
Then we are done. What you are proposing is simply unethical and you are irrationally trying to make separations that don't exist.
Here are some simple tests:
- We are having this conversation, everyone here and the market and your customers (you think) all agree that your proposal is unethical, two masters and unacceptable and potentially illegal (and is certainly illegal in many markets.) That we are even continuing this conversation tells us that you are emotionally tied to the vendor relationship. 400 posts of defending that relationship, think about that. Go back and read your responses. From reading this thread, you've totally sold me that you are totally beholded to the vendors and that your clients aren't your masters in the least (thou doth protest too much.)
- You say that the money from affiliates is small and doesn't matter. Yet it is so big that it is making you act, quite frankly, crazy. This whole thread is because you are trying to justify to yourself something that we all agree is totally unethical without question.
- You aren't willing, thus far in the discussion, to admit what you are doing to the clients. This, to me, is the end all of the discussion. If you HAVE to lie about it and hide it from them, then you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are unethical in this regard and ashamed. If the money is so trivial, why must you hide it?
- You aren't willing to not get the extra money (the double dip.) You claim that money is trivial and doesn't matter, but aren't willing to forgo it. So obviously, that's untrue. @JaredBusch and I know that the money is NOT trivial but our ethics require us to forgo it, period. I think you are missing both parts, it's more money than you are saying... and it is already influencing you very clearly.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
I don't give a two-bit rats behind what an affiliate thinks about anything. So no, I don't work for them.
Again, this is untrue unless you don't get any money from them. Period. I'm so lost as to how you think we would not see through this statement. This is so clearly not true, it's not even plausible to claim. Of course you give a rat's ass. This entire thread is about how much you care.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
You keep suggesting that "making money" from a client is the exact same thing as "making money from affiliate" and therefore I have to be working for two people. Wrong again. Affiliates don't direct me, hire me, tell me what they want, have budget restrictions, goals about what it means for the job to be completed correctly. I don't consult them when someone hires me, I don't go download brochures about how best to up-sell them, they don't hold my hand in trying to convince customers to buy their stuff. They literally have zero to do with anything in my client relations.
They have zero say in the final analysis. I don't send them the estimates and invoices, they don't send me anything. If their product happens to be the right solution, then a bonus is there.
All of this is misdirection. "Do you work for them" comes down to one thing... do you accept money? Everything else is a red herring to try to make it less obvious that you are working for them. None of those things matter. Do you get paid, is all that matters. And you do, so you work for them.
Same for the customer. They pay you. If you listen to their needs or just sell them whatever you are an affiliate for doesn't matter, you work for them either way. So, again, your own logic shows that you work for both. I'm totally lost how this isn't crystal clear. How is there grey area here?
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But just to clarify, it is understood and expected that a VAR serves two masters, correct?
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@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
But just to clarify, it is understood and expected that a VAR serves two masters, correct?
No, a VAR has one master the companies they are reselling for.
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@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
But just to clarify, it is understood and expected that a VAR serves two masters, correct?
No, a VAR only serves one. No honest business serves two equally. A VAR works for the vendor, not the customer. That's why they are a seller's agent, not a buyer's agent.
http://www.smbitjournal.com/2016/06/buyers-and-sellers-agents-in-it/
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@coliver said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
But just to clarify, it is understood and expected that a VAR serves two masters, correct?
No, a VAR has one master the companies they are reselling for.
Correct, working for the "customer" would be unethical for a VAR because they are beholden to the vendor that pays them.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
This conversation is partially about ethics but it's also about business models. Having an affiliate link to one product does NOT necessarily turn my entire business into the "THAT THING VAR COMPANY" where I go around trying to force everybody to use that product only because that tiny payout is just so alluring I can't help myself.
Well, but it does. Either you are a reseller within the context of the consultation or you are not. It's black and white.
If you consult on something and have an associated affiliate link, you are not just a VAR in general, but you are a VAR in that situation. If you had an affiliate link for pinwheels that you like to sell, with zero connection to the consulting, that's different. It's clear and above board to everyone that you are a consultant in one thing... and like to sell pinwheels. Until you start recommending pinwheels, you are okay. It's unrelated.
If your affiliate link is for Digital Ocean, and you ever consult on something that might involve Digital Ocean, you are a VAR, as simple and plain as can be. You might be a poor one not selling much, but a VAR you are, even before you make a single sale. A store is a store when it opens, not when people start shopping.
Maybe you are only a reseller, not a VAR, but you are in the reseller camp without question. That is the business model.
Styling a reselling business as something other than a reseller business and not disclosing the reseller arrangement to the customer.... that's where the ethics problems come in.
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So......
Being a VAR is fine, and ethical, and you can still help the customer. But the world knows the system, and thus the customer should know you are giving (potentially) non-impartial advice.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
As mentioned earlier, people like me who are generalists kind of have to do everything. So for sure I don't call myself purely a consultant, nor purely a VAR. The very word "solutions" is in my company name in face. But AS a generalist, I do offer "consulting" as a line-item offering. Perhaps you would argue this is impossible??
I don't argue against that at all. I'm saying that you can't say that you are not a VAR / reseller and that any lack of disclosure of that is unethical. I think I've made this position very clear.
I'm not suggesting anything strange or non-obvious. If you want to be paid to sell things, don't deny it, just own up to it. Nothing more.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
If I truly wanted to be a VAR I would go all-in with any number of vendors with their maximum payout programs as well as become an expert on their stuff.
This is a silly statement. You do want to be a VAR and you are not doing that. So obviously that statement is incorrect. You don't want to be "that kind of VAR", sure. But you are painting VARs into a corner that doesn't actually exist.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
One thing I never thought to call myself is a reseller or VAR. In fact I don't think "resell" is the same as affiliate at all. I used to work for an IT shop who did reselling, they just quoted people products from Newegg with a 20% markup, kind of pathetic really.
That's reselling, not a VAR. A real VAR adds real value and is an important part of the IT ecosystem. What you are describing there sounds like a store. Some stores are VARs, but it is rare.
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@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
It's a car salesmen JOB to earn commission, it's their bread and butter, it's what they DO.
Exactly, just like you. They are Chevy affiliates. They don't "have" to sell a car, but they only get paid when they do.
Wrong. It's NOT my "job" to sell affiliate things. It's my job to do what a client wants. Period.
If you cannot get past this concept, we're done. Affiliates links don't make me beholden to a company in the least, not whatsoever. Why in the living hell would I bend over backwards for the $20 affiliate and screw over the $500 from the client by giving them twisted advice?
My only goal is do good for the client. I want their business, I want their repeat business, I want their recommendations and word of mouth, I want their good testimonial, and I want my solutions to work over and above their expectations.Then do the even better thing - tell that customer - hey as an FYI, if you buy this chevy, chevy is sending me $20 - just an FYI. Why don't you want to do that?
Right, that's all I've been saying. If you think it's trivial, you'd never want to hide it. If you are hiding it from the customers, I think we can all agree it's not remotely trivial.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@IRJ said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
AH!! This summarizes the entire objection. You guys think the use of affiliates means a person is "chasing", perhaps obsessively, for pennies to screw over clients where the actual money is.
No, I actually think that the money is pretty significant. But other than that, yes. Willing to sacrifice the customers' best interest in exchange for a kickback that isn't ethical (unless disclosed.)
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
I've been fighting this whole time against this idea. The affiliate thing changes NOTHING. I and probably no one else whose though about this have any intention of screwing their clients and their "pounds$$" over pennies.
It's not the intention, it's a willingness. The goal isn't to screw anyone, the goal is to make money. That's why you get clients in the first place. Adding in the pay from the vendors is just more of the ultimate goal - money.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Your assumption is that this is exactly what we do. I don't know what else to say. The pennies are literally bonus money on the sidewalk. Just bend over. It's really not hard.
Can't state this enough, no money is sitting on any sidewalks until after your work for the vendor has been completed. It's payment for services, you are delluding yourself every time you talk about sidewalks. None of us are buying that analogy, it's totally misleading and untrue.
Would you say that to the customer? "Yeah, I was paid by the vendor to sell you on the solution that I sold you. But you shouldn't be mad because... their payments to me was just money laying around for me to collect."
If not, you can't keep saying it. I cannot possibly make it more clear - there is no money laying around here for you to just pick up.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
It's a car salesmen JOB to earn commission, it's their bread and butter, it's what they DO.
Exactly, just like you. They are Chevy affiliates. They don't "have" to sell a car, but they only get paid when they do.
Wrong. It's NOT my "job" to sell affiliate things. It's my job to do what a client wants. Period.
If you cannot get past this concept, we're done. Affiliates links don't make me beholden to a company in the least, not whatsoever. Why in the living hell would I bend over backwards for the $20 affiliate and screw over the $500 from the client by giving them twisted advice?
My only goal is do good for the client. I want their business, I want their repeat business, I want their recommendations and word of mouth, I want their good testimonial, and I want my solutions to work over and above their expectations.Then do the even better thing - tell that customer - hey as an FYI, if you buy this chevy, chevy is sending me $20 - just an FYI. Why don't you want to do that?
You assume I don't?
I'm fighting the idea that BECAUSE Chevy has a $20 kickback, I'm therefore utterly blinded by, controlled by and mindlessly obsessed with promoting, pushing their vehicles ONLY above everything else. Chasing pennies, in other words. And further that I should literally change my entire business model to be the "Chevy VAR" company who comes to your business to push only Chevys.
It's fine if you want to have that view of human nature, I'm just saying it's not me.
Nope. That's your emotional reaction to what we've said, which tells us that you are much, much more influenced by it than we would normally think. We've said,over and over and over, that you are likely influenced by it "just a little bit". But you are freaking out every time changing that, no matter how clear we make it, that everything is an absolute and that your are influenced 100% when we've suggested nothing of the sort and corrected you many times to make sure that you could not possibly think that.
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@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
They have zero say in the final analysis. I don't send them the estimates and invoices, they don't send me anything. If their product happens to be the right solution, then a bonus is there.
Here's a question - Why do you deserve the bonus? You did a job, you were paid for that job - consulting fee. Why do you deserve a bonus for doing that job? Why doesn't the client deserve a discount instead?
Good question. That "bonus" is a payment for handing over a customer. It exists for acting as the reseller.
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@IRJ said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@IRJ said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
AH!! This summarizes the entire objection. You guys think the use of affiliates means a person is "chasing", perhaps obsessively, for pennies to screw over clients where the actual money is.
I've been fighting this whole time against this idea. The affiliate thing changes NOTHING. I and probably no one else whose though about this have any intention of screwing their clients and their "pounds$$" over pennies.
Your assumption is that this is exactly what we do. I don't know what else to say. The pennies are literally bonus money on the sidewalk. Just bend over. It's really not hard.
Do whatever you want. We all adults here, but making $20 on the side could ruin your whole business. I know what amazon affiliate links look like as many other people do and it could put your reputation at risk.
Here is an idea. If the $20 is that important to you then just add it on to the bill. No one will complain then.
I doubt that it will ruin his business. Chances are, no one is going to catch him. This kind of thing is super common in IT shops. Getting away with it is easy. Living with it is what is hard. If he can clear his conscious, that's his business. Well, and his clients' business. It's obviously unethical, maybe illegal, but likely to get caught or found out? No way. This is purely about professionalism and ethics, for all intents and purposes. It definitely will help him make a viable business out of the SMB market.
