Hours I work/PTO
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@BBigford said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
@Jason said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
@Jason said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
@Dashrender said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
Library's have free internet. Most restaurants have free wifi.
The Library's is an OK start, but they are only available when the Library is open. This can be very limiting.
And only for people who live near one. Most poor people do not.
Huh? Most poorer demographics are inner city, which is where libraries are.
And pretty much every local government provides libraries.
Maybe where you are from. Not in the north. Certainly almost nowhere near me.
Of the ones that were around, most were one room deals that have since shut down. No way they would exist or have Internet today.
Well I live in the North and they're here. Even in small towns like the one I grew up in. A town of about 4,000 people.
I grew up in a village of 800, still had a library and internet.
We STILL don't have a gas station, restaurant or store of any kind. Having a library would be weird.
In NY more people live in the open area between villages than in them. The poorest are in the open spaces.
And for the cost of one library you could have just provided Internet to their homes!
False. If you're talking about people out in the middle of nowhere, if there is no line running there, the cost will be much more than a Library.
Long distance microwave, just like anywhere else rural. We cut down on cost for rural customers substantially. It's also not like the high satellite costs. One dish can service a village (moderate speeds) for 5-10 years before we replace it and the dish costs 5-10k... At $1000/year or less at our cost, that's not bad at all.
Yeah, outside of mountainous regions, WISPs can cover a LOT of ground when you are talking about the free infrastructure.
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@Dashrender said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
At the risk of sounding callous. Why are they living there?
Because they are POOR.
So were we.
Not if you could afford to move.
Again, we sold everything to just be able to pay to move.
But as Scott asked.. how did you know where to go? did you already have a job there waiting for you? Where did you stay?
There are some people who, if they sold everything they had wouldn't have more than probably $2-400 to their name.
Yeah... people who rent in the country. Often no car, no house, fear a deposit loss when they leave. I grew up with a lot of friends who could not have moved.
If you don't have kids, it's "easy". You can literally start walking.
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@Dashrender said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
At the risk of sounding callous. Why are they living there?
Because they are POOR.
So were we.
Not if you could afford to move.
Again, we sold everything to just be able to pay to move.
But as Scott asked.. how did you know where to go? did you already have a job there waiting for you? Where did you stay?
There are some people who, if they sold everything they had wouldn't have more than probably $2-400 to their name.
Then how are they living now? If they only have $2 in assets then they wouldn't be able to live anywhere.
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@coliver said in Hours I work/PTO:
@BBigford said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
@Jason said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
@Jason said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
@Dashrender said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
Library's have free internet. Most restaurants have free wifi.
The Library's is an OK start, but they are only available when the Library is open. This can be very limiting.
And only for people who live near one. Most poor people do not.
Huh? Most poorer demographics are inner city, which is where libraries are.
And pretty much every local government provides libraries.
Maybe where you are from. Not in the north. Certainly almost nowhere near me.
Of the ones that were around, most were one room deals that have since shut down. No way they would exist or have Internet today.
Well I live in the North and they're here. Even in small towns like the one I grew up in. A town of about 4,000 people.
I grew up in a village of 800, still had a library and internet.
We STILL don't have a gas station, restaurant or store of any kind. Having a library would be weird.
In NY more people live in the open area between villages than in them. The poorest are in the open spaces.
And for the cost of one library you could have just provided Internet to their homes!
False. If you're talking about people out in the middle of nowhere, if there is no line running there, the cost will be much more than a Library.
Long distance microwave, just like anywhere else rural. We cut down on cost for rural customers substantially. It's also not like the high satellite costs. One dish can service a village (moderate speeds) for 5-10 years before we replace it and the dish costs 5-10k... At $1000/year or less at our cost, that's not bad at all.
Most rural municipalities already have a radio tower for emergency system communications. This would be fairly simple to tack on top of.
That's a good point. I was just talking about a fresh install. Even if we didn't have anyone sign up it would cost us $83/month. If we charged $1 for each resident to have Internet, we would only need to sign up 83 people to break even. Of course there's things I'm missing like the cost of the metal structure to hold the dish, and engineering labor over that many people. But the simple break down just shows a pretty darn good margin to service a rural village at a very affordable rate for them.
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@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
@Dashrender said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
At the risk of sounding callous. Why are they living there?
Because they are POOR.
So were we.
Not if you could afford to move.
Again, we sold everything to just be able to pay to move.
But as Scott asked.. how did you know where to go? did you already have a job there waiting for you? Where did you stay?
There are some people who, if they sold everything they had wouldn't have more than probably $2-400 to their name.
Then how are they living now? If they only have $2 in assets then they wouldn't be able to live anywhere.
Government subsidies, that can cover rent and most food. Otherwise they live off the land.
I knew a family that did pretty much that in my friend's old farmhouse. They farmed a fairly larger garden, did buy groceries, but had very little actual income.
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Here is an example in the real world. I met a couple from Paris, Texas on the side of the road. They had family (sister) in Rome, NY (yes, Paris and Rome, I kid you not) and they had sent their daughter to live with them years before because they were so poor that they could not take care of her.
They decided to sell everything that they had (after dealing with another sister's health issues) to go live with family in NY and try to start over and be with their daughter. After selling everything, they had one backpack each with just clothes, tooth brush, etc. And they started hitchiking from TX to NY.
They were down to $5 by the time that I picked them up. $5... and 1,400 miles to their place to stay. They had no way to charge their phone, no idea where NY was, didn't know how to read a map to figure out how far away it was. Their TX education left them with zero idea of what the US looked like as far as scale. They thought NY was closer than Memphis... and no idea how far north it was.
They had no way to work, shower, get food, nothing. And that was after selling everything and starting walking as adults.
That's poor, and these were real people looking for a job somewhere. Had I not picked them up, I'm guessing they'd be dead. They were on the wrong road for where they thought they were going and thought that they could make it in a few short hitchiking rides. That I was driving directly from where they were, to NY and my FIL works in downtown Rome was beyond coincidental and I was able to drive them all of the way home. The chances were astronomically small.
That's what poverty in rural America looks like.
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@Dashrender said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
@Dashrender said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
At the risk of sounding callous. Why are they living there?
Because they are POOR.
So were we.
Not if you could afford to move.
Again, we sold everything to just be able to pay to move.
But as Scott asked.. how did you know where to go? did you already have a job there waiting for you? Where did you stay?
There are some people who, if they sold everything they had wouldn't have more than probably $2-400 to their name.
Then how are they living now? If they only have $2 in assets then they wouldn't be able to live anywhere.
Government subsidies, that can cover rent and most food. Otherwise they live off the land.
I knew a family that did pretty much that in my friend's old farmhouse. They farmed a fairly larger garden, did buy groceries, but had very little actual income.
I know people locally who are lucky to have power most days. It's not unusual for them to be without it for extended periods of time. Most of their food is from a small garden or what they can get hunting.
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@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
Then how are they living now? If they only have $2 in assets then they wouldn't be able to live anywhere.
Well, lots are homeless. Or they live on farms where they are allowed to stay. Or they live in trailers that are illegal to resell.
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@Dashrender said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
@Dashrender said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
At the risk of sounding callous. Why are they living there?
Because they are POOR.
So were we.
Not if you could afford to move.
Again, we sold everything to just be able to pay to move.
But as Scott asked.. how did you know where to go? did you already have a job there waiting for you? Where did you stay?
There are some people who, if they sold everything they had wouldn't have more than probably $2-400 to their name.
Then how are they living now? If they only have $2 in assets then they wouldn't be able to live anywhere.
Government subsidies, that can cover rent and most food. Otherwise they live off the land.
I knew a family that did pretty much that in my friend's old farmhouse. They farmed a fairly larger garden, did buy groceries, but had very little actual income.
My neighbours now. No jobs, only income is selling milk and tuica from what I can tell. And AFAIK I'm their only milk customer so they get about $5 a week. I saw one guy buy tuica last week, that was probably another $5. But that's the kind of money we are talking. They own a wagon, but they push it by hand, no horse or donkey.
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@coliver said in Hours I work/PTO:
I know people locally who are lucky to have power most days. It's not unusual for them to be without it for extended periods of time. Most of their food is from a small garden or what they can get hunting.
That's not uncommon at all. And lots can't get phone service for the same reasons.
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@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
@Dashrender said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
@Dashrender said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
At the risk of sounding callous. Why are they living there?
Because they are POOR.
So were we.
Not if you could afford to move.
Again, we sold everything to just be able to pay to move.
But as Scott asked.. how did you know where to go? did you already have a job there waiting for you? Where did you stay?
There are some people who, if they sold everything they had wouldn't have more than probably $2-400 to their name.
Then how are they living now? If they only have $2 in assets then they wouldn't be able to live anywhere.
Government subsidies, that can cover rent and most food. Otherwise they live off the land.
I knew a family that did pretty much that in my friend's old farmhouse. They farmed a fairly larger garden, did buy groceries, but had very little actual income.
My neighbours now. No jobs, only income is selling milk and tuica from what I can tell. And AFAIK I'm their only milk customer so they get about $5 a week. I saw one guy buy tuica last week, that was probably another $5. But that's the kind of money we are talking. They own a wagon, but they push it by hand, no horse or donkey.
No horse to pull the cart?... What about kids?
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@BBigford said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
@Dashrender said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
@Dashrender said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
At the risk of sounding callous. Why are they living there?
Because they are POOR.
So were we.
Not if you could afford to move.
Again, we sold everything to just be able to pay to move.
But as Scott asked.. how did you know where to go? did you already have a job there waiting for you? Where did you stay?
There are some people who, if they sold everything they had wouldn't have more than probably $2-400 to their name.
Then how are they living now? If they only have $2 in assets then they wouldn't be able to live anywhere.
Government subsidies, that can cover rent and most food. Otherwise they live off the land.
I knew a family that did pretty much that in my friend's old farmhouse. They farmed a fairly larger garden, did buy groceries, but had very little actual income.
My neighbours now. No jobs, only income is selling milk and tuica from what I can tell. And AFAIK I'm their only milk customer so they get about $5 a week. I saw one guy buy tuica last week, that was probably another $5. But that's the kind of money we are talking. They own a wagon, but they push it by hand, no horse or donkey.
No horse to pull the cart?... What about kids?
Too old to have kids around. I think that they have grand kids, but the kids would have left. They are in their sixties probably.
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@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
@BBigford said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
@Dashrender said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
@Dashrender said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
At the risk of sounding callous. Why are they living there?
Because they are POOR.
So were we.
Not if you could afford to move.
Again, we sold everything to just be able to pay to move.
But as Scott asked.. how did you know where to go? did you already have a job there waiting for you? Where did you stay?
There are some people who, if they sold everything they had wouldn't have more than probably $2-400 to their name.
Then how are they living now? If they only have $2 in assets then they wouldn't be able to live anywhere.
Government subsidies, that can cover rent and most food. Otherwise they live off the land.
I knew a family that did pretty much that in my friend's old farmhouse. They farmed a fairly larger garden, did buy groceries, but had very little actual income.
My neighbours now. No jobs, only income is selling milk and tuica from what I can tell. And AFAIK I'm their only milk customer so they get about $5 a week. I saw one guy buy tuica last week, that was probably another $5. But that's the kind of money we are talking. They own a wagon, but they push it by hand, no horse or donkey.
No horse to pull the cart?... What about kids?
Too old to have kids around. I think that they have grand kids, but the kids would have left. They are in their sixties probably.
Grand kids could pull the cart...
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@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
They had no way to charge their phone, no idea where NY was, didn't know how to read a map to figure out how far away it was. Their TX education left them with zero idea of what the US looked like as far as scale. They thought NY was closer than Memphis... and no idea how far north it was.
First off, if you've ever seen a map at all you would know that NY is further than Memphis. So either they lied or you're exaggerating.
They had no way to work, shower, get food, nothing. And that was after selling everything and starting walking as adults.
And yet there are people that walk across the country and can accomplish those things.
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@BBigford said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
@BBigford said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
@Dashrender said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
@Dashrender said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
At the risk of sounding callous. Why are they living there?
Because they are POOR.
So were we.
Not if you could afford to move.
Again, we sold everything to just be able to pay to move.
But as Scott asked.. how did you know where to go? did you already have a job there waiting for you? Where did you stay?
There are some people who, if they sold everything they had wouldn't have more than probably $2-400 to their name.
Then how are they living now? If they only have $2 in assets then they wouldn't be able to live anywhere.
Government subsidies, that can cover rent and most food. Otherwise they live off the land.
I knew a family that did pretty much that in my friend's old farmhouse. They farmed a fairly larger garden, did buy groceries, but had very little actual income.
My neighbours now. No jobs, only income is selling milk and tuica from what I can tell. And AFAIK I'm their only milk customer so they get about $5 a week. I saw one guy buy tuica last week, that was probably another $5. But that's the kind of money we are talking. They own a wagon, but they push it by hand, no horse or donkey.
No horse to pull the cart?... What about kids?
Too old to have kids around. I think that they have grand kids, but the kids would have left. They are in their sixties probably.
Grand kids could pull the cart...
Most everyone young moves away. It's just them. He pulls and she pushes. They go and collect wood and stuff.
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@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
Then how are they living now? If they only have $2 in assets then they wouldn't be able to live anywhere.
Well, lots are homeless. Or they live on farms where they are allowed to stay. Or they live in trailers that are illegal to resell.
None of those, other than the trailer, would be able to get internet through this venue anyway. And if you only have $2 to your name, what do you do with the "free internet" that you've been given? You need the ability to purchase something to use it.
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@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
First off, if you've ever seen a map at all you would know that NY is further than Memphis. So either they lied or you're exaggerating.
They really had no idea. My wife can't read a map either. Tons of people can't. They had literally no idea where things were. They had zero concept of what the US looked like or how big it was. Zero, zip, none. Neither of them had ever left Texas, so their idea of the outside world was very skewed.
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@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
And yet there are people that walk across the country and can accomplish those things.
Normally people who train, have equipment and some access to money and, very importantly, can read maps. The average person, with no money and no idea where things are, could not do that.
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@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
None of those, other than the trailer, would be able to get internet through this venue anyway. And if you only have $2 to your name, what do you do with the "free internet" that you've been given? You need the ability to purchase something to use it.
This is true, but people generally have phones. Even in the poorest areas of Africa, people have phones. There are still people so poor that they don't have that, but at least if you get Internet everywhere, then people have reasons to have access devices, can use the myriad free ones thrown away every day (I've worked with programs getting free computers to the poor so that kids could get online) or have closer neighbours that do have access.
Trailers can get it, so can people living on farms.
And in any area where you argue that people can access a library, you can have free wifi.
In my wife's village in NY, which has a library, also has 100% free Internet for everyone in the village, even the homeless (there are none, but in theory.)
So they did both and the Internet was so cheap that it wasn't even a budget discussion. It was trivial to do. But, same as the libraries, only addresses people rich enough to live in a village.
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In many cases, things could be much simpler. What if Internet was free? That means that wifi could be shared. So let's look at where my dad lives, very rural. He has neighbours. Instead of running a line to everyone on the street, they need only run it to his house (he can afford a wired connection) and there could be wireless from there. It would be very far and slow, but he's on high ground and can see several houses within a mile. They could all get wireless from his one drop.
