NAS or SAM-SD?
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@dafyre said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@dafyre said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
For ~$3k, I can get a SAM-SD with 36TB (12 x 3TB drives) and get 18TB of usable space... that should tide us over for a while.
What are you looking at specifically, from xByte? I'm curious myself as we're going to be looking into the same thing about 6 months from now.
R510, and 12 x 3TB NL-SAS drives, Front Bezel, Rail Kit, and 3 Year NBD Parts Warranty... Comes out to ~$2,750 -- that's list price on their site.
Also, I am going to take a moment to tell @BradfromxByte : Be sure to pass 1,000 Thank Yous and Well Wishes to the Web Developers and whoever it was that makes the pricing information so easy to find on your site!
That's 30TB usabel. 300% above what you were looking for. The cost is great, but that feels like overkill.
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@BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
White box is not the counter to black box.
So then this falls into the category of a black box? By simply spec'ing it out myself and having a single point of contact... http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?oc=pe_r830_1190&model_id=poweredge-r830&c=us&l=en&s=bsd&cs=04
Not in the least. Since you know that black box and white box are not each other's counterpoints AND that all normal servers are not black box or white box, why would you assume that this became one or the other?
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@scottalanmiller said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
White box is not the counter to black box.
So then this falls into the category of a black box? By simply spec'ing it out myself and having a single point of contact... http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?oc=pe_r830_1190&model_id=poweredge-r830&c=us&l=en&s=bsd&cs=04
Not in the least. Since you know that black box and white box are not each other's counterpoints AND that all normal servers are not black box or white box, why would you assume that this became one or the other?
Because I thought it fit the bill for what is defined as a "black box"...
*One that is not necessarily pre-built. You talk to sales or go online and spec it out specifically to fit your needs.
*It has a single point of contact for support.
*The parts, while spec'd by you, are not accessible, or the software, so you rely on support to help. -
@coliver said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
The big difference between a white-box and a commodity server is that the commodity server has a single point of support. For instance purchasing from Dell will allow you to contact Dell if any single piece goes bad, from a hard drive to a CPU you contact Dell for literally everything. Not only that but Dell can get you parts in a fraction of the time.
It's more than that. There are single point of contact vendors for non-enterprise servers, too. Enterprise servers need to be engineered as an enterprise product, have specific types and scope of support, be of a certain quality level, etc. Anyone can provide single point of contact for anything, that's not enough to even get considered.
The easy guide for day to day enterprise servers is...
- Comes from one of the enterprise vendors: HPE, Dell, IBM (real IBM, not Lenovo confused with IBM), Oracle, Fujitsu, Hitachi, SuperMicro and, reluctantly, Cisco (although personally I put them below enterprise level at an SMB level).
- AND that vendor considers it to be an enterprise server (Dell PowerEdge R counts, C does not. HPE Proliant 3xx counts, 1xx does not, etc.)
- AND it is purchases with an enterprise level of support (NBD is fine if the situation calls for it.)
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@scottalanmiller said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@dafyre said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@dafyre said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
For ~$3k, I can get a SAM-SD with 36TB (12 x 3TB drives) and get 18TB of usable space... that should tide us over for a while.
What are you looking at specifically, from xByte? I'm curious myself as we're going to be looking into the same thing about 6 months from now.
R510, and 12 x 3TB NL-SAS drives, Front Bezel, Rail Kit, and 3 Year NBD Parts Warranty... Comes out to ~$2,750 -- that's list price on their site.
Also, I am going to take a moment to tell @BradfromxByte : Be sure to pass 1,000 Thank Yous and Well Wishes to the Web Developers and whoever it was that makes the pricing information so easy to find on your site!
That's 30TB usabel. 300% above what you were looking for. The cost is great, but that feels like overkill.
36TB RAW... RAID10 it and it becomes 18 Usable...
And still, this build is LESS than the cost of a similar Similar 12-Bay Synology with the same drives, while providing 80% more space.
Edit: Still Considering a 4-Bay + 6TB drive system... or maybe 8TB drives... That would give us 16TB usable.
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@BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@scottalanmiller said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
White box is not the counter to black box.
So then this falls into the category of a black box? By simply spec'ing it out myself and having a single point of contact... http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?oc=pe_r830_1190&model_id=poweredge-r830&c=us&l=en&s=bsd&cs=04
Not in the least. Since you know that black box and white box are not each other's counterpoints AND that all normal servers are not black box or white box, why would you assume that this became one or the other?
Because I thought it fit the bill for what is defined as a "black box"...
*One that is not necessarily pre-built. You talk to sales or go online and spec it out specifically to fit your needs.
*It has a single point of contact for support.
*The parts, while spec'd by you, are not accessible, or the software, so you rely on support to help.The software and parts are fully accessible. You select the operating system and software you run on the server. The parts are generally easily replaced by the user and can be shipped in a few hours, or minutes if you're @scottalanmiller. On top of that you aren't locked down to the pre-configured system. You can add hardware and software at anytime as your needs change.
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@BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@scottalanmiller said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
White box is not the counter to black box.
So then this falls into the category of a black box? By simply spec'ing it out myself and having a single point of contact... http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?oc=pe_r830_1190&model_id=poweredge-r830&c=us&l=en&s=bsd&cs=04
Not in the least. Since you know that black box and white box are not each other's counterpoints AND that all normal servers are not black box or white box, why would you assume that this became one or the other?
Because I thought it fit the bill for what is defined as a "black box"...
*One that is not necessarily pre-built. You talk to sales or go online and spec it out specifically to fit your needs. <-- this alone makes it not a black box
*It has a single point of contact for support. <-- this isn't clear, why would it be a single point of contact? I don't see that as an option.
*The parts, while spec'd by you, are not accessible, or the software, so you rely on support to help. <-- this is not the case with this unit, so doesn't qualify -
@scottalanmiller said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@scottalanmiller said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
White box is not the counter to black box.
So then this falls into the category of a black box? By simply spec'ing it out myself and having a single point of contact... http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?oc=pe_r830_1190&model_id=poweredge-r830&c=us&l=en&s=bsd&cs=04
Not in the least. Since you know that black box and white box are not each other's counterpoints AND that all normal servers are not black box or white box, why would you assume that this became one or the other?
Because I thought it fit the bill for what is defined as a "black box"...
*One that is not necessarily pre-built. You talk to sales or go online and spec it out specifically to fit your needs. <-- this alone makes it not a black box
*It has a single point of contact for support. <-- this isn't clear, why would it be a single point of contact? I don't see that as an option.
*The parts, while spec'd by you, are not accessible, or the software, so you rely on support to help. <-- this is not the case with this unit, so doesn't qualifyI've completely lost sense what a black box vs. enterprise server is then. White box I understand, you build it from whatever parts vendors you choose and load up whatever OS you want.
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In no way is a Dell PowerEdge R830 a black box appliance.
- It is just a server, the OS and the applications are not part of the system. They are user defined.
- The server itself is not an appliance even at the hardware level, it is a collection of user serviceable parts that can be openly modified at any time.
- Defined usage of the device is for the end user to set it up themselves. Any OEM setup is purely for testing (RAID, OS install, etc.)
- It is not an appliance, all needed or possible configurations are not included by the manufacturer.)
- It lacks a single point of contact. Your options for OS, applications, extra parts, etc. all define their own support agreements as you see fit.
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@BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@scottalanmiller said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@scottalanmiller said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
White box is not the counter to black box.
So then this falls into the category of a black box? By simply spec'ing it out myself and having a single point of contact... http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?oc=pe_r830_1190&model_id=poweredge-r830&c=us&l=en&s=bsd&cs=04
Not in the least. Since you know that black box and white box are not each other's counterpoints AND that all normal servers are not black box or white box, why would you assume that this became one or the other?
Because I thought it fit the bill for what is defined as a "black box"...
*One that is not necessarily pre-built. You talk to sales or go online and spec it out specifically to fit your needs. <-- this alone makes it not a black box
*It has a single point of contact for support. <-- this isn't clear, why would it be a single point of contact? I don't see that as an option.
*The parts, while spec'd by you, are not accessible, or the software, so you rely on support to help. <-- this is not the case with this unit, so doesn't qualifyI've completely lost sense what a black box vs. enterprise server is then. White box I understand, you build it from whatever parts vendors you choose and load up whatever OS you want.
Do you consider a desktop purchased from CyberPC, Dell, or HP a blackbox?
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@scottalanmiller said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
In no way is a Dell PowerEdge R830 a black box appliance.
- It is just a server, the OS and the applications are not part of the system. They are user defined.
- The server itself is not an appliance even at the hardware level, it is a collection of user serviceable parts that can be openly modified at any time.
- Defined usage of the device is for the end user to set it up themselves. Any OEM setup is purely for testing (RAID, OS install, etc.)
- It is not an appliance, all needed or possible configurations are not included by the manufacturer.)
- It lacks a single point of contact. Your options for OS, applications, extra parts, etc. all define their own support agreements as you see fit.
I thought a black box had to be an enterprise appliance, not something like Synology/QNAP/ReadyNAS/etc that you'd find in much smaller environments like SMB.
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@BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@scottalanmiller said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@scottalanmiller said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
White box is not the counter to black box.
So then this falls into the category of a black box? By simply spec'ing it out myself and having a single point of contact... http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?oc=pe_r830_1190&model_id=poweredge-r830&c=us&l=en&s=bsd&cs=04
Not in the least. Since you know that black box and white box are not each other's counterpoints AND that all normal servers are not black box or white box, why would you assume that this became one or the other?
Because I thought it fit the bill for what is defined as a "black box"...
*One that is not necessarily pre-built. You talk to sales or go online and spec it out specifically to fit your needs. <-- this alone makes it not a black box
*It has a single point of contact for support. <-- this isn't clear, why would it be a single point of contact? I don't see that as an option.
*The parts, while spec'd by you, are not accessible, or the software, so you rely on support to help. <-- this is not the case with this unit, so doesn't qualifyI've completely lost sense what a black box vs. enterprise server is then. White box I understand, you build it from whatever parts vendors you choose and load up whatever OS you want.
And a black box is 100% unknown, unsupported and unserviceable to you. A black box means you don't know anything about it, and don't care. Your Synology... you don't care HOW they do what they do, none of that is of concern to you. You can't modify it or tune it, Synology does that. You don't install apps (without breaking support and the appliance nature) or anything like that. It's nothing like a server.
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@coliver said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@scottalanmiller said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@scottalanmiller said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
White box is not the counter to black box.
So then this falls into the category of a black box? By simply spec'ing it out myself and having a single point of contact... http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?oc=pe_r830_1190&model_id=poweredge-r830&c=us&l=en&s=bsd&cs=04
Not in the least. Since you know that black box and white box are not each other's counterpoints AND that all normal servers are not black box or white box, why would you assume that this became one or the other?
Because I thought it fit the bill for what is defined as a "black box"...
*One that is not necessarily pre-built. You talk to sales or go online and spec it out specifically to fit your needs. <-- this alone makes it not a black box
*It has a single point of contact for support. <-- this isn't clear, why would it be a single point of contact? I don't see that as an option.
*The parts, while spec'd by you, are not accessible, or the software, so you rely on support to help. <-- this is not the case with this unit, so doesn't qualifyI've completely lost sense what a black box vs. enterprise server is then. White box I understand, you build it from whatever parts vendors you choose and load up whatever OS you want.
Do you consider a desktop purchased from CyberPC, Dell, or HP a blackbox?
Haha now I'm not even sure, since I've completely lost sense of what the term black box really means.
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@BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@scottalanmiller said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
In no way is a Dell PowerEdge R830 a black box appliance.
- It is just a server, the OS and the applications are not part of the system. They are user defined.
- The server itself is not an appliance even at the hardware level, it is a collection of user serviceable parts that can be openly modified at any time.
- Defined usage of the device is for the end user to set it up themselves. Any OEM setup is purely for testing (RAID, OS install, etc.)
- It is not an appliance, all needed or possible configurations are not included by the manufacturer.)
- It lacks a single point of contact. Your options for OS, applications, extra parts, etc. all define their own support agreements as you see fit.
I thought a black box had to be an enterprise appliance, not something like Synology/QNAP/ReadyNAS/etc that you'd find in much smaller environments like SMB.
No, black box or white box have nothing to do with the enterprise nature. No enterprise white box parts or processes exist on the market so white boxing cannot be enterprise, but that in no way implies that black boxes are enterprise. Black boxes include things like.. airplane black boxes (hence the name), your cable company's DVR, a normal home router, ANYTHING labeled as an appliance, etc.
Black box = appliance. NAS are by definition appliances / black boxes.
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@BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@coliver said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@scottalanmiller said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@scottalanmiller said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
White box is not the counter to black box.
So then this falls into the category of a black box? By simply spec'ing it out myself and having a single point of contact... http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?oc=pe_r830_1190&model_id=poweredge-r830&c=us&l=en&s=bsd&cs=04
Not in the least. Since you know that black box and white box are not each other's counterpoints AND that all normal servers are not black box or white box, why would you assume that this became one or the other?
Because I thought it fit the bill for what is defined as a "black box"...
*One that is not necessarily pre-built. You talk to sales or go online and spec it out specifically to fit your needs. <-- this alone makes it not a black box
*It has a single point of contact for support. <-- this isn't clear, why would it be a single point of contact? I don't see that as an option.
*The parts, while spec'd by you, are not accessible, or the software, so you rely on support to help. <-- this is not the case with this unit, so doesn't qualifyI've completely lost sense what a black box vs. enterprise server is then. White box I understand, you build it from whatever parts vendors you choose and load up whatever OS you want.
Do you consider a desktop purchased from CyberPC, Dell, or HP a blackbox?
Haha now I'm not even sure, since I've completely lost sense of what the term black box really means.
It means you can't look under the hood. It's a standard English term, not a technical one. White boxing is an IT / bench term.
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@BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@coliver said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@scottalanmiller said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@scottalanmiller said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
White box is not the counter to black box.
So then this falls into the category of a black box? By simply spec'ing it out myself and having a single point of contact... http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?oc=pe_r830_1190&model_id=poweredge-r830&c=us&l=en&s=bsd&cs=04
Not in the least. Since you know that black box and white box are not each other's counterpoints AND that all normal servers are not black box or white box, why would you assume that this became one or the other?
Because I thought it fit the bill for what is defined as a "black box"...
*One that is not necessarily pre-built. You talk to sales or go online and spec it out specifically to fit your needs. <-- this alone makes it not a black box
*It has a single point of contact for support. <-- this isn't clear, why would it be a single point of contact? I don't see that as an option.
*The parts, while spec'd by you, are not accessible, or the software, so you rely on support to help. <-- this is not the case with this unit, so doesn't qualifyI've completely lost sense what a black box vs. enterprise server is then. White box I understand, you build it from whatever parts vendors you choose and load up whatever OS you want.
Do you consider a desktop purchased from CyberPC, Dell, or HP a blackbox?
Haha now I'm not even sure, since I've completely lost sense of what the term black box really means.
An Xbox would be a blackbox. A PC bought from CyberPC or Dell would be neither a blackbox nor a whitebox. They are PCs.
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@coliver said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@coliver said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@scottalanmiller said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@scottalanmiller said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
White box is not the counter to black box.
So then this falls into the category of a black box? By simply spec'ing it out myself and having a single point of contact... http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?oc=pe_r830_1190&model_id=poweredge-r830&c=us&l=en&s=bsd&cs=04
Not in the least. Since you know that black box and white box are not each other's counterpoints AND that all normal servers are not black box or white box, why would you assume that this became one or the other?
Because I thought it fit the bill for what is defined as a "black box"...
*One that is not necessarily pre-built. You talk to sales or go online and spec it out specifically to fit your needs. <-- this alone makes it not a black box
*It has a single point of contact for support. <-- this isn't clear, why would it be a single point of contact? I don't see that as an option.
*The parts, while spec'd by you, are not accessible, or the software, so you rely on support to help. <-- this is not the case with this unit, so doesn't qualifyI've completely lost sense what a black box vs. enterprise server is then. White box I understand, you build it from whatever parts vendors you choose and load up whatever OS you want.
Do you consider a desktop purchased from CyberPC, Dell, or HP a blackbox?
Haha now I'm not even sure, since I've completely lost sense of what the term black box really means.
An Xbox would be a blackbox. A PC bought from CyberPC or Dell would be neither a blackbox nor a whitebox. They are PCs.
Good desktop comparison.
iPhones, XBox, PS4... all black box. If you need to "root" something to gain control, it was a black box that you broke into. They are all appliances.
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@scottalanmiller said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@scottalanmiller said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
In no way is a Dell PowerEdge R830 a black box appliance.
- It is just a server, the OS and the applications are not part of the system. They are user defined.
- The server itself is not an appliance even at the hardware level, it is a collection of user serviceable parts that can be openly modified at any time.
- Defined usage of the device is for the end user to set it up themselves. Any OEM setup is purely for testing (RAID, OS install, etc.)
- It is not an appliance, all needed or possible configurations are not included by the manufacturer.)
- It lacks a single point of contact. Your options for OS, applications, extra parts, etc. all define their own support agreements as you see fit.
I thought a black box had to be an enterprise appliance, not something like Synology/QNAP/ReadyNAS/etc that you'd find in much smaller environments like SMB.
No, black box or white box have nothing to do with the enterprise nature. No enterprise white box parts or processes exist on the market so white boxing cannot be enterprise, but that in no way implies that black boxes are enterprise. Black boxes include things like.. airplane black boxes (hence the name), your cable company's DVR, a normal home router, ANYTHING labeled as an appliance, etc.
Black box = appliance. NAS are by definition appliances / black boxes.
Maybe I overthought which Synology box, or does it even matter? The smaller ones like a 2-bay, you only replace the drives, but the larger rack mount ones, Synology had me replace the HDD back plane & power supplies. Are those rack mount ones still considered black boxes?
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@scottalanmiller said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@coliver said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@coliver said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@scottalanmiller said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@scottalanmiller said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
White box is not the counter to black box.
So then this falls into the category of a black box? By simply spec'ing it out myself and having a single point of contact... http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?oc=pe_r830_1190&model_id=poweredge-r830&c=us&l=en&s=bsd&cs=04
Not in the least. Since you know that black box and white box are not each other's counterpoints AND that all normal servers are not black box or white box, why would you assume that this became one or the other?
Because I thought it fit the bill for what is defined as a "black box"...
*One that is not necessarily pre-built. You talk to sales or go online and spec it out specifically to fit your needs. <-- this alone makes it not a black box
*It has a single point of contact for support. <-- this isn't clear, why would it be a single point of contact? I don't see that as an option.
*The parts, while spec'd by you, are not accessible, or the software, so you rely on support to help. <-- this is not the case with this unit, so doesn't qualifyI've completely lost sense what a black box vs. enterprise server is then. White box I understand, you build it from whatever parts vendors you choose and load up whatever OS you want.
Do you consider a desktop purchased from CyberPC, Dell, or HP a blackbox?
Haha now I'm not even sure, since I've completely lost sense of what the term black box really means.
An Xbox would be a blackbox. A PC bought from CyberPC or Dell would be neither a blackbox nor a whitebox. They are PCs.
Good desktop comparison.
iPhones, XBox, PS4... all black box. If you need to "root" something to gain control, it was a black box that you broke into. They are all appliances.
I'm trying to think of a home comparison but I do service most of my appliances myself so that makes it difficult.
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@BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@scottalanmiller said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
@scottalanmiller said in NAS or SAM-SD?:
In no way is a Dell PowerEdge R830 a black box appliance.
- It is just a server, the OS and the applications are not part of the system. They are user defined.
- The server itself is not an appliance even at the hardware level, it is a collection of user serviceable parts that can be openly modified at any time.
- Defined usage of the device is for the end user to set it up themselves. Any OEM setup is purely for testing (RAID, OS install, etc.)
- It is not an appliance, all needed or possible configurations are not included by the manufacturer.)
- It lacks a single point of contact. Your options for OS, applications, extra parts, etc. all define their own support agreements as you see fit.
I thought a black box had to be an enterprise appliance, not something like Synology/QNAP/ReadyNAS/etc that you'd find in much smaller environments like SMB.
No, black box or white box have nothing to do with the enterprise nature. No enterprise white box parts or processes exist on the market so white boxing cannot be enterprise, but that in no way implies that black boxes are enterprise. Black boxes include things like.. airplane black boxes (hence the name), your cable company's DVR, a normal home router, ANYTHING labeled as an appliance, etc.
Black box = appliance. NAS are by definition appliances / black boxes.
Maybe I overthought which Synology box, or does it even matter? The smaller ones like a 2-bay, you only replace the drives, but the larger rack mount ones, Synology had me replace the HDD back plane & power supplies. Are those rack mount ones still considered black boxes?
If the term NAS exists, it is a black box. That they are making you do the service work isn't a factor. They supply all parts and directions. Black box doesn't mean that you can't physically touch it, but it means you don't have control or know what anything does. That you can figure out what the parts do is ancillary. SOmeone with zero IT knowledge could do the work just as easily.
