InfoWorld on Why Linux on the Desktop is Still Better than Windows 10
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@johnhooks said:
@Dashrender said:
@johnhooks said:
@Dashrender said:
@johnhooks said:
Plus, if this were possibly wouldn't it have happened in the server space anyway? Here is builtwith.com's statistics http://trends.builtwith.com/server
No, because IT Pros are the ones generally installing things on Linux servers, not unknowning, searching for emoticon programs end users.
If they could infiltrate the repo to install a virus, it wouldn't matter your level of ability. Whoever installed the package from the repo would be infected whether they were a home user or a seasoned Admin/Engineer.
@johnhooks said:
@Dashrender said:
@johnhooks said:
Plus, if this were possibly wouldn't it have happened in the server space anyway? Here is builtwith.com's statistics http://trends.builtwith.com/server
No, because IT Pros are the ones generally installing things on Linux servers, not unknowning, searching for emoticon programs end users.
If they could infiltrate the repo to install a virus, it wouldn't matter your level of ability. Whoever installed the package from the repo would be infected whether they were a home user or a seasoned Admin/Engineer.
I'm not talking about infecting the repo.. just an app in the repo.
Just like there being a bad app in the Apple Store or Google Play.
That's also what I'm saying. You can't, because it's vetted and signed by the repo maintainers.
So are all the ones in Google Play and Apple store, yet every year they end up pull out dozens or more apps because the vetting process failed. Why does it fail? Because it's an automated process that can be gamed. And I'm not sure that a human based system would REALLY be any better...
So, considering how many apps are in the Linux repos versus how many are in the Apple/Google stores, they (linux distros) have an easy time. What happens when the number of apps reaches hundreds of thousands, or millions?
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@Dashrender said:
We both agree (I assume) that the Windows store is nearly useless today. Things that you want simply aren't in there. Examples, Putty, WinDirStat, etc.
You're question implies that a home user would even know how to find something in the software center/repo (I have no clue how to search it - can it be done with a GUI? can you give it goal desires to help you find things like Google will?)
So what's wrong with the store concept today? In the commercial world (Microsoft Store, Google Play, Apple Store, Amazon, etc) you have to pay to play. I don't think you can publish for free. And the vendor can choose to just not allow your stuff in the store.
But in the world of Windows, MAC and Android you can just create software and toss it out on the web, and assuming your website has the correct keywords, will be indexed by Google so you can google it, download and install it.
So if we apply that to the Linux world you need to get a place where developers can easily (probably required to be free) to put applications into the software center/repo.
Again home users have to be allowed to install them without root.
Think about mobile devices today - it pretty much needs to end up working like they do. Normal users, non rooted can't install anything from the store. But you have to have enough software in the store so people aren't trying to go around the blocks to get third party non store apps to solve a problem they have.
Android personally makes this entirely to easy - but even if a user never enables the feature that allows them to install non Google Play apps, infected apps still make it into the curated Google Play store. I'm curious how you solve that problem without causing a back log, and needing some pretty serious funding to pay for the curation of the repo.
The store has a GUI, they've had a store since before I've been using Linux. Ubuntu has a few paid apps, but very few. Everything else in the store is free. Same with Fedora, all free.
infected apps still make it into the curated Google Play store
When has this happened?
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@johnhooks said:
When has this happened?
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Even if something did make it into the repo, which I still say would have happened before now because of the number of Linux servers being used (the repos work just like a store) the history of patching on Linux is far far better than any other platform.
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Linux repos have been breached as early as 2010/2011.
No platform has 100% track record of reliability, lot of us like Linux but let's not ignore the past.
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@Dashrender said:
@johnhooks said:
When has this happened?
The malicious app basically attempts to detect if a device is rooted, and then it copies several files to the/system partition
The devices have to be rooted. Which removes all security that was given.
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@johnhooks said:
Even if something did make it into the repo, which I still say would have happened before now because of the number of Linux servers being used (the repos work just like a store) the history of patching on Linux is far far better than any other platform.
I'll definitely give you that. Though Apps on mobile platforms are rip and replace. When you update an app on Android for example, you remove the old one, and replace it with the whole new install apk.
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@johnhooks said:
@Dashrender said:
@johnhooks said:
When has this happened?
The malicious app basically attempts to detect if a device is rooted, and then it copies several files to the/system partition
The devices have to be rooted. Which removes all security that was given.
That definitely wasn't the case for bad apps that were released in china. There was an infected compiler running around china that was being used to create apps, those apps did make their way into the apple store, later to be removed.
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@Breffni-Potter said:
Linux repos have been breached as early as 2010/2011.
No platform has 100% track record of reliability, lot of us like Linux but let's not ignore the past.
You're right, I shouldn't say you can't. It's just super hard. And with the number of servers running critical and important data, you would have think it would have happened more frequently than it does on Windows home computers running goofy software.
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@Dashrender said:
@johnhooks said:
@Dashrender said:
@johnhooks said:
When has this happened?
The malicious app basically attempts to detect if a device is rooted, and then it copies several files to the/system partition
The devices have to be rooted. Which removes all security that was given.
That definitely wasn't the case for bad apps that were released in china. There was an infected compiler running around china that was being used to create apps, those apps did make their way into the apple store, later to be removed.
The apps in question installed their own digital certificates on a person's Apple mobile device. It would enable the apps to terminate an encrypted connection between a device and a service and view the traffic, which is a potential security risk.
That's all it did.
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@johnhooks I think servers don't suffer this because how often are server admins pushing out some unknown package? They are using newer versions of things that have been around for a long time. There is probably some kind of chain of custody that makes those things less likely to make their way into the repo in an infected state, unless the vendor making the software was penetrated and the code infected.
Server admins are not home users - home users install all kinds of crazy things - they want card maker programs, and soduko, crossword, crazy smiley faces, etc.
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@Dashrender said:
@johnhooks I think servers don't suffer this because how often are server admins pushing out some unknown package? They are using newer versions of things that have been around for a long time. There is probably some kind of chain of custody that makes those things less likely to make their way into the repo in an infected state, unless the vendor making the software was penetrated and the code infected.
Server admins are not home users - home users install all kinds of crazy things - they want card maker programs, and soduko, crossword, crazy smiley faces, etc.
But being in the repo or store means its not unknown. The software stores use the same repos. If you can install it on Ubuntu with Unity, you can install it on Ubuntu server.
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@johnhooks said:
The devices have to be rooted. Which removes all security that was given.
That article didn't actually say they had to be rooted, but if it was rooted, it would right itself to the file system making it difficult to remove.. not the same thing at all.
It's like javascript in your browser, stuff can be downloaded that can do all kinds of crazy things... like attempting to log into your router (now from the LAN side) and making changes, etc.
Root, admin level privileges aren't needed to do those things. -
@johnhooks said:
@Dashrender said:
@johnhooks I think servers don't suffer this because how often are server admins pushing out some unknown package? They are using newer versions of things that have been around for a long time. There is probably some kind of chain of custody that makes those things less likely to make their way into the repo in an infected state, unless the vendor making the software was penetrated and the code infected.
Server admins are not home users - home users install all kinds of crazy things - they want card maker programs, and soduko, crossword, crazy smiley faces, etc.
But being in the repo or store means its not unknown. The software stores use the same repos. If you can install it on Ubuntu with Unity, you can install it on Ubuntu server.
A brand new game, in the repo is an unknown - to you. that's my point. Brand new things in the repo have no reputation. I'm surprised you haven't heard about the dozens of things being pulled from both Google/Apple stores for doing improper things.
If you want to find more, I guess you can google it.
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@Dashrender said:
@johnhooks said:
The devices have to be rooted. Which removes all security that was given.
That article didn't actually say they had to be rooted, but if it was rooted, it would right itself to the file system making it difficult to remove.. not the same thing at all.
It's like javascript in your browser, stuff can be downloaded that can do all kinds of crazy things... like attempting to log into your router (now from the LAN side) and making changes, etc.
Root, admin level privileges aren't needed to do those things.You don't have filesystem access without root access on Android.
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@johnhooks said:
@Dashrender said:
@johnhooks said:
The devices have to be rooted. Which removes all security that was given.
That article didn't actually say they had to be rooted, but if it was rooted, it would right itself to the file system making it difficult to remove.. not the same thing at all.
It's like javascript in your browser, stuff can be downloaded that can do all kinds of crazy things... like attempting to log into your router (now from the LAN side) and making changes, etc.
Root, admin level privileges aren't needed to do those things.You don't have filesystem access without root access on Android.
but you don't need it to do what that program was doing.. only to keep itself from being uninstalled/removed completely.
It's like a virus that runs in user space on Windows, you don't need local admin rights, but it can still do plenty of damage.
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@Dashrender said:
@johnhooks said:
@Dashrender said:
@johnhooks said:
The devices have to be rooted. Which removes all security that was given.
That article didn't actually say they had to be rooted, but if it was rooted, it would right itself to the file system making it difficult to remove.. not the same thing at all.
It's like javascript in your browser, stuff can be downloaded that can do all kinds of crazy things... like attempting to log into your router (now from the LAN side) and making changes, etc.
Root, admin level privileges aren't needed to do those things.You don't have filesystem access without root access on Android.
but you don't need it to do what that program was doing.. only to keep itself from being uninstalled/removed completely.
It's like a virus that runs in user space on Windows, you don't need local admin rights, but it can still do plenty of damage.
I apologize, I was told we were going on a family walk and I was trying to read while walking down the road and didn't read your comment correctly.
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@Dashrender said:
@johnhooks said:
@Dashrender said:
@johnhooks I think servers don't suffer this because how often are server admins pushing out some unknown package? They are using newer versions of things that have been around for a long time. There is probably some kind of chain of custody that makes those things less likely to make their way into the repo in an infected state, unless the vendor making the software was penetrated and the code infected.
Server admins are not home users - home users install all kinds of crazy things - they want card maker programs, and soduko, crossword, crazy smiley faces, etc.
But being in the repo or store means its not unknown. The software stores use the same repos. If you can install it on Ubuntu with Unity, you can install it on Ubuntu server.
A brand new game, in the repo is an unknown - to you. that's my point. Brand new things in the repo have no reputation. I'm surprised you haven't heard about the dozens of things being pulled from both Google/Apple stores for doing improper things.
If you want to find more, I guess you can google it.
From my experience, things in the repos aren't usually brand new, unless you enable a repo that has that. That is one gripe people have with Ubuntu. PPAs make it trivial to install software from a repo that could possibly not be maintained 10 months down the road and now has security issues. It's easy to add Jimbob's super drawing app repo, but it's likely that will never be maintained.
You don't really run into unknown software to anyone in the main repos.
I guess my whole point is this, if you have root access to your device, all bets are off (especially if you have no clue what you are doing). Things like Chromebooks have done away with a lot of problems (and still run Linux). So desktop space, I'm sure if the market takes off there will be virus issues. However, the platform itself makes it so much easier to take care of that, both in being open and in design.
For example, if I download a file that was malicious on my laptop I'm using right now, I can keep my whole system in tact, and just blow away my home folder and create a new one without ever turning it off. As long as I didn't give it root permissions.
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@Dashrender said:
@johnhooks said:
The devices have to be rooted. Which removes all security that was given.
That article didn't actually say they had to be rooted, but if it was rooted, it would right itself to the file system making it difficult to remove.. not the same thing at all.
It's like javascript in your browser, stuff can be downloaded that can do all kinds of crazy things... like attempting to log into your router (now from the LAN side) and making changes, etc.
Root, admin level privileges aren't needed to do those things.https://blog.lookout.com/blog/2016/01/06/brain-test-re-emerges/
That link is pretty much saying it does need to be rooted for the malware to do anything. If it doesn't have root access, then it can't install any other applications.
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Microsoft with their store apps is trying to move to the Google/Apple model, but there is so much legacy software that people want/need that will never be converted.
When you are talking about Ubuntu, you're talking about admins using it.. not home users. As such the lack of new things making would never be acceptable to home users - they are constantly looking for new things.. and if they can't find it in the normal store.. they will go elsewhere if it's possible at all.
Apple makes this nearly impossible, but Android makes side loading pretty easy in fact. So sure, people could go outside of the store and install non vetted things.
The exact same thing would happen if Linux got a foot hold on the desktop, unless the ability to side load was more or less completely removed, or the app store was always being renewed with latest crap.
